Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[bkkfoxi]

As well-intentioned as your campaign is, it is destined to futility. It's not just the Ministry that takes time...it's getting the signature of the King as well. And good luck trying to rush him.

In any case, mine came through three years after application. I don't feel that to be an inordinate amount of time to wait for something so valuable.

It's not taking more than 3 to 4 months getting the signature of the King if you gone through the process after the approval. The main thing is to get through out of MOI.

If I remember correctly, it took around 9 months after receiving approval from the MOI for mine to be signed off on by HM and proceed to be published in the gazette.

These things take time.

Thanks, NewlyMintedThai to give an answer, it just took 9 months not many years as taking by MOI now. Thanks again for the answer by yourself.

I was unaware that things are taking longer now than in the past. My experience was just 2.5 years ago.

Something does seem to have happened fairly recently to slow the process to a snail's pace for most applicants. Indeed SB has said off the record that most names coming up for the MoI interview recently were from applications filed 4 to 5 years ago. After that there is no telling how long the process is going to take. I have come across several people waiting for the IM's approval 3 or more years after the MoI interview. On the other hand a very small number of people I am told (without being able to verify this independently) are getting interviewed within 6 months and even getting their ID cards within a year after application. SB is open about the fact the right connections can play a significant role here.

The issue is certainly not HMK's approval time which is fairly predictable and seems not subject to inordinate delays. Neither is it the time taken by SB to process applications through various departments in the vetting procedures and forward them to the MoI. This is very efficient and takes only 2 to 4 months. Even though some departments can't be bothered with citizen applications, SB chivvies them up and gets the signatures and stamps in on time. The problem lies in the MoI and the processes there and the IM. The interviewing is clearly a bottleneck. A few years ago they started interviewing several applicants simultaneously at different tables and took a whole day over interviews. Recently they have reverted to interviewing applicants separately in front of the whole sub-committee, as previously. They also now limit the numbers per batch more than before, so it doesn't drag on so long. I believe the committee is fairly diligent and thorough about their work and don't want to rush interviews which can sometimes take up to half an hour. They try to give a little extra time to applicants who are not so strong in spoken Thai so as to give them a better chance. The sub-committee has 15 standing members or their alternates from various government agencies, as specified in the ministerial regulations, and all must be represented. The MoI tries to convene the sub-committee monthly but this is not always possible, since one agency being unable to provide an alternate automatically results in the cancellation of that month's meeting. Following the interviews the applications have to be approved by the main committee that is specified in the Nationality Act and chaired by the permanent secretary. I think this committee only meets 2 or 3 times a year. I don't know how many applications are considered in each batch. Interviews are not required at this stage but the same committee has to consider all citizenship applications, including the hundreds of applications annually from minorities and displaced Thais, and it also considers PR applications. Then the IM has to sign and he may decide take months, years or never bother to sign any at all before his time is up.

Can this changed? Yes. MoI officials say it is entirely up to the IM. In the past some IMs have implemented a policy that most applications should be approved within, say 3 years, and all the officials and agencies involved have been obliged to cooperate to ensure they are not causing delays and the IM has of course signed promptly. If the IM is disinterested, there is no incentive for anyone else to try to speed things up, since the policy must come from the top. When considering the process within the IM you have to bear in mind that the vast majority of their work involves minorities and displaced Thais applying for naturalisation (the latter group particularly after the long awaited 2012 Nationality Act made special provisions for displaced Thais). The staff in the MoI nationality section are fielding calls all day long from people in these categories interested in applying.

Can applicants do anything about it? Yes, but it is very sensitive and needs to be handled carefully. As NMT points out, complaints made in the wrong way are likely to result in a response that it is disrespectful to HMK, although we know that he is not holding up the process. MoI officials also like to produce the argument that Thailand could be in danger of being overrun and losing its quintessential Thainess which certainly resonates with ordinary citizens. Personally I think that the issue needs to be bundled with PR, WPs and regular visa issues that need to be streamlined to facilitate FDI which the government is very keen to promote and taken up by foreign chambers of commerce and the BoI. I was told that the BoI had been pushing hard behind the scenes about PR before the previous IM signed off on the backlog of PR applications. The line should not be making citizenship easier, since that is enshrined in the Nationality Act which is the prerogative of Parliament. As with PR, It should simply be implementing existing laws and regulations more efficiently and setting a clear timeline, say 2 years up to IM approval for citizenship which we know they can do if they want to, so that applicants know where they stand and can plan their lives accordingly.

Thanks you for taking the time to write this it is very insightful - EOD I hope to full in that lucky 6 Month club, but whatever lived here 18 years already; so a few more waiting "Thai Style" isn't going to hurt....

[Arkady]

Hi Thanks for the heads up, and yes I was thinking that the Police at Special Branch where a little "don't need that or this" - so once they accept (what I hope is the complete set of Doco's) where excatualy does it go from there? (meaning at what stage where your Bank statements rejected?

As far as the Yellow book goes I just didn't really know about it now I am clued up and will get it sorted out....

Question about - "Your witnesses will have to confirm this balance in the interview they

have to do with Special Branch which may be done in absentia, if SB

feels in a good mood." - What exactually they have to do with my finances? I thought they where just for character reference? and I never knew they had to also go to an interview? and if so at what stage?

Thanks for the help as I wanna get the correct documents in, and try my best to understand the steps lol

The witnesses have to fill in a form with their own personal details and questions about yours. Then they should be summoned to SB for an interview. The interview which is in a standard format is written up by SB and included in your application file. Standard questions include: "Can you confirm that: the applicant works at XYZ Co Ltd in the position of bog cleaner for a salary of THBxx,xxx per month"; that the applicant owns a condo at no. xxx Soi Cowboy, Bangkok worth THB 50 zillion; that he had THB 100 zillion in his a/c no. XXXXXXXX at Thai Kleptocratic Bank Co Ltd as of 1 Jan 1908." They will also be asked when they first met you. I can't remember if they are asked anything about your character, as that is subjective and the MoI is mainly interested in verifiable facts. The subjective assessment will be done by them when they interview you. Of course it is ridiculous to ask the witnesses about your bank balance but that is the regulation. If SB likes the general smell of you and don't think they will get into trouble for letting through a Russian mobster, they might just write up the interviews by themselves without troubling the witnesses who I think have already signed forms certifying everything in the interview which makes them a duplication. Outside Bkk SB might not dare to cut corners on this, as they do very few applications.

SB has to get clearances on you from various police departments like the narcs, the criminal records people and the Interpol liaison office, most of whom need prodding several times to reply, so you need to make friends with your SB officer to ensure that this process can be completed within 2-3 months and is not left in limbo for ever. Then the National Intelligence Agency will interview you over a bottle of water at McD's Ratchaprasong and, budgets and staffing permitting may have even snooped around your home and office, since they are supposed to be spies. Finally SB will enclose your application and all the bumpf they have collected from the various agencies and will send it off to the MoI with a covering letter saying that you are applying under Section 10 of the Act and meet all the qualifications prescribed in the Act and the ministerial regulations and obtained more than 50 points in the tests. Unless a heavy weight pu yai goes in to bat robustly for you, your file will then likely sit unmolested in a queue with many other files for probably 3-5 years until until the time for your interview comes close. That is normally the point, as far as I know, that your file will be thoroughly scrutinised by the MoI. If they discover anything incorrect or missing, including things that SB might have decided for themselves were unnecessary, they will send the file back to SB for correction and will also tell SB to recheck that you are still employed and that you have paid your taxes in the years since your original application. This process will usually take several months before your file can be sent back to the MoI with a new covering letter confirming that the errors have been rectified and that you are still qualified by virtue of your employment and tax payments. If the MoI misses any error in your application before your interview but someone on the Sub-Committee for Nationality comprising different agencies that does the interviews spots the error on interview day, it is likely that the Sub-Committee will reject you as unqualified. In that case, you would have to apply again from scratch but will be considered again without prejudice, if you have corrected what was wrong or missing.

Now you understand better why I advise not to rely totally on SB, particularly inexperienced SB offices outside Bkk. They don't seem to have a particularly good relationship with the MoI which means that they tend to rely on their own hunches, rather than clarify things with the MoI direct. If there is something that the regulations say you need but they say it is not necessary, unless it is the declaration of majority, it is better to persuade them politely to include it with the application anyway to be on the safe side. You don't want to find out a few years later that they made a mistake and you now have to start again. I once saw half a dozen files in a stack at SB that had just come back from the Sub-Committee with rejection slips.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Arkady

[GarryP]

Your witnesses need to provide signed copies of their ID cards. These will be attached to their interview transcripts, regardless whether they were actually interviewed of not.

[bkkfoxi]

Hi Thanks for the heads up, and yes I was thinking that the Police at Special Branch where a little "don't need that or this" - so once they accept (what I hope is the complete set of Doco's) where excatualy does it go from there? (meaning at what stage where your Bank statements rejected?

As far as the Yellow book goes I just didn't really know about it now I am clued up and will get it sorted out....

Question about - "Your witnesses will have to confirm this balance in the interview they

have to do with Special Branch which may be done in absentia, if SB

feels in a good mood." - What exactually they have to do with my finances? I thought they where just for character reference? and I never knew they had to also go to an interview? and if so at what stage?

Thanks for the help as I wanna get the correct documents in, and try my best to understand the steps lol

The witnesses have to fill in a form with their own personal details and questions about yours. Then they should be summoned to SB for an interview. The interview which is in a standard format is written up by SB and included in your application file. Standard questions include: "Can you confirm that: the applicant works at XYZ Co Ltd in the position of bog cleaner for a salary of THBxx,xxx per month"; that the applicant owns a condo at no. xxx Soi Cowboy, Bangkok worth THB 50 zillion; that he had THB 100 zillion in his a/c no. XXXXXXXX at Thai Kleptocratic Bank Co Ltd as of 1 Jan 1908." They will also be asked when they first met you. I can't remember if they are asked anything about your character, as that is subjective and the MoI is mainly interested in verifiable facts. The subjective assessment will be done by them when they interview you. Of course it is ridiculous to ask the witnesses about your bank balance but that is the regulation. If SB likes the general smell of you and don't think they will get into trouble for letting through a Russian mobster, they might just write up the interviews by themselves without troubling the witnesses who I think have already signed forms certifying everything in the interview which makes them a duplication. Outside Bkk SB might not dare to cut corners on this, as they do very few applications.

SB has to get clearances on you from various police departments like the narcs, the criminal records people and the Interpol liaison office, most of whom need prodding several times to reply, so you need to make friends with your SB officer to ensure that this process can be completed within 2-3 months and is not left in limbo for ever. Then the National Intelligence Agency will interview you over a bottle of water at McD's Ratchaprasong and, budgets and staffing permitting may have even snooped around your home and office, since they are supposed to be spies. Finally SB will enclose your application and all the bumpf they have collected from the various agencies and will send it off to the MoI with a covering letter saying that you are applying under Section 10 of the Act and meet all the qualifications prescribed in the Act and the ministerial regulations and obtained more than 50 points in the tests. Unless a heavy weight pu yai goes in to bat robustly for you, your file will then likely sit unmolested in a queue with many other files for probably 3-5 years until until the time for your interview comes close. That is normally the point, as far as I know, that your file will be thoroughly scrutinised by the MoI. If they discover anything incorrect or missing, including things that SB might have decided for themselves were unnecessary, they will send the file back to SB for correction and will also tell SB to recheck that you are still employed and that you have paid your taxes in the years since your original application. This process will usually take several months before your file can be sent back to the MoI with a new covering letter confirming that the errors have been rectified and that you are still qualified by virtue of your employment and tax payments. If the MoI misses any error in your application before your interview but someone on the Sub-Committee for Nationality comprising different agencies that does the interviews spots the error on interview day, it is likely that the Sub-Committee will reject you as unqualified. In that case, you would have to apply again from scratch but will be considered again without prejudice, if you have corrected what was wrong or missing.

Now you understand better why I advise not to rely totally on SB, particularly inexperienced SB offices outside Bkk. They don't seem to have a particularly good relationship with the MoI which means that they tend to rely on their own hunches, rather than clarify things with the MoI direct. If there is something that the regulations say you need but they say it is not necessary, unless it is the declaration of majority, it is better to persuade them politely to include it with the application anyway to be on the safe side. You don't want to find out a few years later that they made a mistake and you now have to start again. I once saw half a dozen files in a stack at SB that had just come back from the Sub-Committee with rejection slips.

Thank you so much for spending the time to write such a detailed reply - I really appreciate it! if I may I have; what I hope are a last few questions:

1) The Wittiness (2x Letters, ID and Tabien Bann that I understand of and have) that I will submitt How will they be contacted? or is there a form also that I need to them to complete when I submit all my documents to SB? or as I am thinking SB will contact them? not sure how as they only have their address..

2) For the bank statement you mentioned that it should have a letter addressed to SB HQ what is the exact address I should use here? Building 28 etc?

3) When I go to SB with all my completed documents is there a form they will give to fill in as yet I see nothing along those lines so am wondering if there is like a case number etc?

Again Many thanks for your advise and help

[bkkfoxi]

Hi Thanks for the heads up, and yes I was thinking that the Police at Special Branch where a little "don't need that or this" - so once they accept (what I hope is the complete set of Doco's) where excatualy does it go from there? (meaning at what stage where your Bank statements rejected?

As far as the Yellow book goes I just didn't really know about it now I am clued up and will get it sorted out....

Question about - "Your witnesses will have to confirm this balance in the interview they

have to do with Special Branch which may be done in absentia, if SB

feels in a good mood." - What exactually they have to do with my finances? I thought they where just for character reference? and I never knew they had to also go to an interview? and if so at what stage?

Thanks for the help as I wanna get the correct documents in, and try my best to understand the steps lol

The witnesses have to fill in a form with their own personal details and questions about yours. Then they should be summoned to SB for an interview. The interview which is in a standard format is written up by SB and included in your application file. Standard questions include: "Can you confirm that: the applicant works at XYZ Co Ltd in the position of bog cleaner for a salary of THBxx,xxx per month"; that the applicant owns a condo at no. xxx Soi Cowboy, Bangkok worth THB 50 zillion; that he had THB 100 zillion in his a/c no. XXXXXXXX at Thai Kleptocratic Bank Co Ltd as of 1 Jan 1908." They will also be asked when they first met you. I can't remember if they are asked anything about your character, as that is subjective and the MoI is mainly interested in verifiable facts. The subjective assessment will be done by them when they interview you. Of course it is ridiculous to ask the witnesses about your bank balance but that is the regulation. If SB likes the general smell of you and don't think they will get into trouble for letting through a Russian mobster, they might just write up the interviews by themselves without troubling the witnesses who I think have already signed forms certifying everything in the interview which makes them a duplication. Outside Bkk SB might not dare to cut corners on this, as they do very few applications.

SB has to get clearances on you from various police departments like the narcs, the criminal records people and the Interpol liaison office, most of whom need prodding several times to reply, so you need to make friends with your SB officer to ensure that this process can be completed within 2-3 months and is not left in limbo for ever. Then the National Intelligence Agency will interview you over a bottle of water at McD's Ratchaprasong and, budgets and staffing permitting may have even snooped around your home and office, since they are supposed to be spies. Finally SB will enclose your application and all the bumpf they have collected from the various agencies and will send it off to the MoI with a covering letter saying that you are applying under Section 10 of the Act and meet all the qualifications prescribed in the Act and the ministerial regulations and obtained more than 50 points in the tests. Unless a heavy weight pu yai goes in to bat robustly for you, your file will then likely sit unmolested in a queue with many other files for probably 3-5 years until until the time for your interview comes close. That is normally the point, as far as I know, that your file will be thoroughly scrutinised by the MoI. If they discover anything incorrect or missing, including things that SB might have decided for themselves were unnecessary, they will send the file back to SB for correction and will also tell SB to recheck that you are still employed and that you have paid your taxes in the years since your original application. This process will usually take several months before your file can be sent back to the MoI with a new covering letter confirming that the errors have been rectified and that you are still qualified by virtue of your employment and tax payments. If the MoI misses any error in your application before your interview but someone on the Sub-Committee for Nationality comprising different agencies that does the interviews spots the error on interview day, it is likely that the Sub-Committee will reject you as unqualified. In that case, you would have to apply again from scratch but will be considered again without prejudice, if you have corrected what was wrong or missing.

Now you understand better why I advise not to rely totally on SB, particularly inexperienced SB offices outside Bkk. They don't seem to have a particularly good relationship with the MoI which means that they tend to rely on their own hunches, rather than clarify things with the MoI direct. If there is something that the regulations say you need but they say it is not necessary, unless it is the declaration of majority, it is better to persuade them politely to include it with the application anyway to be on the safe side. You don't want to find out a few years later that they made a mistake and you now have to start again. I once saw half a dozen files in a stack at SB that had just come back from the Sub-Committee with rejection slips.

Thank you so much for spending the time to write such a detailed reply - I really appreciate it! if I may I have; what I hope are a last few questions:

1) The Wittiness (2x Letters, ID and Tabien Bann that I understand of and have) that I will submitt How will they be contacted? or is there a form also that I need to them to complete when I submit all my documents to SB? or as I am thinking SB will contact them? not sure how as they only have their address..

2) For the bank statement you mentioned that it should have a letter addressed to SB HQ what is the exact address I should use here? Building 28 etc?

3) When I go to SB with all my completed documents is there a form they will give to fill in as yet I see nothing along those lines so am wondering if there is like a case number etc?

Again Many thanks for your advise and help

In fact would you even have an example of the letter in point 2) ?

As what I will do; once I finally get everything submitted, is make a new thread with all the template documents and steps I took hopefully that will help others,...

Cheers

Edited May 27, 2013 by bkkfoxi

[Arkady]

Thank you so much for spending the time to write such a detailed reply - I really appreciate it! if I may I have; what I hope are a last few questions:

1) The Wittiness (2x Letters, ID and Tabien Bann that I understand of and have) that I will submitt How will they be contacted? or is there a form also that I need to them to complete when I submit all my documents to SB? or as I am thinking SB will contact them? not sure how as they only have their address..

2) For the bank statement you mentioned that it should have a letter addressed to SB HQ what is the exact address I should use here? Building 28 etc?

3) When I go to SB with all my completed documents is there a form they will give to fill in as yet I see nothing along those lines so am wondering if there is like a case number etc?

Again Many thanks for your advise and help

1) Yes, there is a standard form for witnesses to complete that SB will give you. The witnesses have to fill in their addresses and phone numbers on the form. However, if they want to see them, SB is more likely to just ask you bring them along together at a time to suit SB. You will have to do the leg work.

2) This is the heading for the bank statement letter for the attention of Special Branch's Legal and Discipline Section,General Staff Division, if you apply in Bangkok. Mine was done like this in memo form without full address.

เรึ่อง รับรองเงินฟากในบัญชี

เรีอน ผกก. ฝ่ายกฎหมายและวินัย บก. อก. บช.ส.

But since you are applying to SB in Nonthaburi, it might be different and you should check the heading with them. The letter which must be Thai just confirms that Mr X had XX baht in his account number xxx on such and such a date. The bank might try to fob you off with a standard form in English they use for embassies for Thais applying for visas or something like that but you must insist.

3) There is a form you can find online but SB in Bangkok fills it in for you and hopefully Nonthaburi will do likewise. You need to come armed with details like the dates of birth of all your siblings. Practice signing your full name in Thai for this occasion. No need for a fancy signature - writing your name legibly is better. They will finger print you too and again before they give you your naturalisation certificate to check you haven't been switched with a double!

No, there is no case or reference number for your application. It will be classified according to your full name in Thai and the date of the covering letter from SB to the MoI. It is very inportant to obtain a copy of this letter from SB in order to follow up your application later. Typically SB will not bother to inform you they have forwarded your application to the MoI, even if they have said they would. So you have to call them periodically to ask for the letter. It should take 2-4 months from the date of your application and finger printing. You can start calling them about a month after your interview at McD's with the NIA who obviously have to include their report with the application.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Arkady

[bkkfoxi]

Thank you so much for spending the time to write such a detailed reply - I really appreciate it! if I may I have; what I hope are a last few questions:

1) The Wittiness (2x Letters, ID and Tabien Bann that I understand of and have) that I will submitt How will they be contacted? or is there a form also that I need to them to complete when I submit all my documents to SB? or as I am thinking SB will contact them? not sure how as they only have their address..

2) For the bank statement you mentioned that it should have a letter addressed to SB HQ what is the exact address I should use here? Building 28 etc?

3) When I go to SB with all my completed documents is there a form they will give to fill in as yet I see nothing along those lines so am wondering if there is like a case number etc?

Again Many thanks for your advise and help

1) Yes, there is a standard form for witnesses to complete that SB will give you. The witnesses have to fill in their addresses and phone numbers on the form. However, if they want to see them, SB is more likely to just ask you bring them along together at a time to suit SB. You will have to do the leg work.

2) This is the heading for the bank statement letter for the attention of Special Branch's Legal and Discipline Section,General Staff Division, if you apply in Bangkok. Mine was done like this in memo form without full address.

เรึ่อง รับรองเงินฟากในบัญชี

เรีอน ผกก. ฝ่ายกฎหมายและวินัย บก. อก. บช.ส.

But since you are applying to SB in Nonthaburi, it might be different and you should check the heading with them. The letter which must be Thai just confirms that Mr X had XX baht in his account number xxx on such and such a date. The bank might try to fob you off with a standard form in English they use for embassies for Thais applying for visas or something like that but you must insist.

3) There is a form you can find online but SB in Bangkok fills it in for you and hopefully Nonthaburi will do likewise. You need to come armed with details like the dates of birth of all your siblings. Practice signing your full name in Thai for this occasion. No need for a fancy signature - writing your name legibly is better. They will finger print you too and again before they give you your naturalisation certificate to check you haven't been switched with a double!

No, there is no case or reference number for your application. It will be classified according to your full name in Thai and the date of the covering letter from SB to the MoI. It is very inportant to obtain a copy of this letter from SB in order to follow up your application later. Typically SB will not bother to inform you they have forwarded your application to the MoI, even if they have said they would. So you have to call them periodically to ask for the letter. It should take 2-4 months from the date of your application and finger printing. You can start calling them about a month after your interview at McD's with the NIA who obviously have to include their report with the application.

Again Fantastic thanks again I owe you a beer or few I will start to amend what I have now to include as you have mentioned. BTW I got into the blue book after all at my Aumpur just shows you that there is no real pattern with the rules here even I asked for the yellow one they just said well you where married here (that Aumpur office) 12 years ago so just go get a letter from Immigration stating your address and we will add you to the blue book!!!

[GarryP]

Thank you so much for spending the time to write such a detailed reply - I really appreciate it! if I may I have; what I hope are a last few questions:

1) The Wittiness (2x Letters, ID and Tabien Bann that I understand of and have) that I will submitt How will they be contacted? or is there a form also that I need to them to complete when I submit all my documents to SB? or as I am thinking SB will contact them? not sure how as they only have their address..

2) For the bank statement you mentioned that it should have a letter addressed to SB HQ what is the exact address I should use here? Building 28 etc?

3) When I go to SB with all my completed documents is there a form they will give to fill in as yet I see nothing along those lines so am wondering if there is like a case number etc?

Again Many thanks for your advise and help

1) Yes, there is a standard form for witnesses to complete that SB will give you. The witnesses have to fill in their addresses and phone numbers on the form. However, if they want to see them, SB is more likely to just ask you bring them along together at a time to suit SB. You will have to do the leg work.

2) This is the heading for the bank statement letter for the attention of Special Branch's Legal and Discipline Section,General Staff Division, if you apply in Bangkok. Mine was done like this in memo form without full address.

เรึ่อง รับรองเงินฟากในบัญชี

เรีอน ผกก. ฝ่ายกฎหมายและวินัย บก. อก. บช.ส.

But since you are applying to SB in Nonthaburi, it might be different and you should check the heading with them. The letter which must be Thai just confirms that Mr X had XX baht in his account number xxx on such and such a date. The bank might try to fob you off with a standard form in English they use for embassies for Thais applying for visas or something like that but you must insist.

3) There is a form you can find online but SB in Bangkok fills it in for you and hopefully Nonthaburi will do likewise. You need to come armed with details like the dates of birth of all your siblings. Practice signing your full name in Thai for this occasion. No need for a fancy signature - writing your name legibly is better. They will finger print you too and again before they give you your naturalisation certificate to check you haven't been switched with a double!

No, there is no case or reference number for your application. It will be classified according to your full name in Thai and the date of the covering letter from SB to the MoI. It is very inportant to obtain a copy of this letter from SB in order to follow up your application later. Typically SB will not bother to inform you they have forwarded your application to the MoI, even if they have said they would. So you have to call them periodically to ask for the letter. It should take 2-4 months from the date of your application and finger printing. You can start calling them about a month after your interview at McD's with the NIA who obviously have to include their report with the application.

Again Fantastic thanks again I owe you a beer or few I will start to amend what I have now to include as you have mentioned. BTW I got into the blue book after all at my Aumpur just shows you that there is no real pattern with the rules here even I asked for the yellow one they just said well you where married here (that Aumpur office) 12 years ago so just go get a letter from Immigration stating your address and we will add you to the blue book!!!

Previous post failed.

I would be very, very careful with that. Just because they put you in the blue book does not mean it is the correct or legal thing to do. If the boys and girls of SB do not pick up on it, the MOI might and it could result in a rejected application 5 years down the line. Without PR you are not qualified to be listed in the blue book, except as the name of the father of your children. You qualify for a yellow book so you should get one. You may need to be adamant about this.

I was married for 24 years before I got my yellow book; from the same district office I had registered my marriage. I, like you, did not have PR and did not qualify to be entered in any blue book.

[bkkfoxi]

Thank you so much for spending the time to write such a detailed reply - I really appreciate it! if I may I have; what I hope are a last few questions:

1) The Wittiness (2x Letters, ID and Tabien Bann that I understand of and have) that I will submitt How will they be contacted? or is there a form also that I need to them to complete when I submit all my documents to SB? or as I am thinking SB will contact them? not sure how as they only have their address..

2) For the bank statement you mentioned that it should have a letter addressed to SB HQ what is the exact address I should use here? Building 28 etc?

3) When I go to SB with all my completed documents is there a form they will give to fill in as yet I see nothing along those lines so am wondering if there is like a case number etc?

Again Many thanks for your advise and help

1) Yes, there is a standard form for witnesses to complete that SB will give you. The witnesses have to fill in their addresses and phone numbers on the form. However, if they want to see them, SB is more likely to just ask you bring them along together at a time to suit SB. You will have to do the leg work.

2) This is the heading for the bank statement letter for the attention of Special Branch's Legal and Discipline Section,General Staff Division, if you apply in Bangkok. Mine was done like this in memo form without full address.

เรึ่อง รับรองเงินฟากในบัญชี

เรีอน ผกก. ฝ่ายกฎหมายและวินัย บก. อก. บช.ส.

But since you are applying to SB in Nonthaburi, it might be different and you should check the heading with them. The letter which must be Thai just confirms that Mr X had XX baht in his account number xxx on such and such a date. The bank might try to fob you off with a standard form in English they use for embassies for Thais applying for visas or something like that but you must insist.

3) There is a form you can find online but SB in Bangkok fills it in for you and hopefully Nonthaburi will do likewise. You need to come armed with details like the dates of birth of all your siblings. Practice signing your full name in Thai for this occasion. No need for a fancy signature - writing your name legibly is better. They will finger print you too and again before they give you your naturalisation certificate to check you haven't been switched with a double!

No, there is no case or reference number for your application. It will be classified according to your full name in Thai and the date of the covering letter from SB to the MoI. It is very inportant to obtain a copy of this letter from SB in order to follow up your application later. Typically SB will not bother to inform you they have forwarded your application to the MoI, even if they have said they would. So you have to call them periodically to ask for the letter. It should take 2-4 months from the date of your application and finger printing. You can start calling them about a month after your interview at McD's with the NIA who obviously have to include their report with the application.

Again Fantastic thanks again I owe you a beer or few I will start to amend what I have now to include as you have mentioned. BTW I got into the blue book after all at my Aumpur just shows you that there is no real pattern with the rules here even I asked for the yellow one they just said well you where married here (that Aumpur office) 12 years ago so just go get a letter from Immigration stating your address and we will add you to the blue book!!!

Previous post failed.

I would be very, very careful with that. Just because they put you in the blue book does not mean it is the correct or legal thing to do. If the boys and girls of SB do not pick up on it, the MOI might and it could result in a rejected application 5 years down the line. Without PR you are not qualified to be listed in the blue book, except as the name of the father of your children. You qualify for a yellow book so you should get one. You may need to be adamant about this.

I was married for 24 years before I got my yellow book; from the same district office I had registered my marriage. I, like you, did not have PR and did not qualify to be entered in any blue book.

Many thanks and yes I agree I will be insisting on yellow cover, for non-Thais, has ท.ร. 13 on the top right as I do not want anything I submit to be the cause of a rejection later!!!

[Arkady]

I would be very, very careful with that. Just because they put you in the blue book does not mean it is the correct or legal thing to do. If the boys and girls of SB do not pick up on it, the MOI might and it could result in a rejected application 5 years down the line. Without PR you are not qualified to be listed in the blue book, except as the name of the father of your children. You qualify for a yellow book so you should get one. You may need to be adamant about this.

I was married for 24 years before I got my yellow book; from the same district office I had registered my marriage. I, like you, did not have PR and did not qualify to be entered in any blue book.

I am not too sure about this one. I can find a ministerial announcement of the MoI pursuant to the 2008 Civil Registration Act that clearly specifies that aliens who have not been granted permanent residence should be issued with a TR 13. I can't find a specific regulation that says they must not to be entered in a TR 14, although that is somewhat implied by the former. Just doing a quick google I found this from the Pattaya City Hall's website:

- ทะเบียนบ้าน (ท.ร.14) ใช้สำหรับลงรายการของคนที่มีสัญชาติไทยและคนต่างด้าว ที่มีใบสำคัญ

ประจำตัวคนต่างด้าว

- ทะเบียนบ้าน (ท.ร.13) ใช้ลงรายการของคนต่างด้าวที่เข้าเมืองโดยชอบด้วยกฎหมายแต่อยู่ใน

ลักษณะชั่วคราว หรือเข้าเมืองโดยมิชอบด้วยกฎหมายตามกฎหมายว่าด้วยคนเข้าเมือง

They make it quite clear that TR 14 is for Thais and PRs, while TR 13 is for anyone with temporary permission to stay and, interestingly, illegal immigrants (presumably refugees with special leave to stay).

Bkkfoxi would certainly not be the first foreigner without PR to have been entered in his Thai wife's TR 14. I have come across several other cases. It may well not be specifically prohibited in the regulations and some district officers may feel it saves the trouble of producing a new TR 13 book for the same house.

The ministerial guidelines on naturalisation only call for a tabien baan in the list of documents for those applying on the basis of a Thai wife but don't specify that should be a TR 13.

My gut feeling is that a TR 14 would be OK as it is a tabien baan as proof of residence which is what they are looking for and SB will ask you to get the district office to confirm it is genuine anyway. However, you never know what nit picking stuff SB or the MoI could come up with and a TR 14 held by a non-PR might look irregular to them. There is no advantage to having a TR 14 compared to a TR 13 anyway apart from bragging rights. So I would go with Garry's advice to be safe and ask for a yellow TR 13, if you can. Be sure to have your parents' full names and nationalities entered into your tabien baan. The district office may need evidence of that from your embassy. If that detail is missing, you will be made to get it filled in by SB to prove they weren't illegal immigrants!

Edited May 27, 2013 by Arkady

[bkkfoxi]

I would be very, very careful with that. Just because they put you in the blue book does not mean it is the correct or legal thing to do. If the boys and girls of SB do not pick up on it, the MOI might and it could result in a rejected application 5 years down the line. Without PR you are not qualified to be listed in the blue book, except as the name of the father of your children. You qualify for a yellow book so you should get one. You may need to be adamant about this.

I was married for 24 years before I got my yellow book; from the same district office I had registered my marriage. I, like you, did not have PR and did not qualify to be entered in any blue book.

I am not too sure about this one. I can find a ministerial announcement of the MoI pursuant to the 2008 Civil Registration Act that clearly specifies that aliens who have not been granted permanent residence should be issued with a TR 13. I can't find a specific regulation that says they must not to be entered in a TR 14, although that is somewhat implied by the former. Just doing a quick google I found this from the Pattaya City Hall's website:

- ทะเบียนบ้าน (ท.ร.14) ใช้สำหรับลงรายการของคนที่มีสัญชาติไทยและคนต่างด้าว ที่มีใบสำคัญ

ประจำตัวคนต่างด้าว

- ทะเบียนบ้าน (ท.ร.13) ใช้ลงรายการของคนต่างด้าวที่เข้าเมืองโดยชอบด้วยกฎหมายแต่อยู่ใน

ลักษณะชั่วคราว หรือเข้าเมืองโดยมิชอบด้วยกฎหมายตามกฎหมายว่าด้วยคนเข้าเมือง

They make it quite clear that TR 14 is for Thais and PRs, while TR 13 is for anyone with temporary permission to stay and, interestingly, illegal immigrants (presumably refugees with special leave to stay).

Bkkfoxi would certainly not be the first foreigner without PR to have been entered in his Thai wife's TR 14. I have come across several other cases. It may well not be specifically prohibited in the regulations and some district officers may feel it saves the trouble of producing a new TR 13 book for the same house.

The ministerial guidelines on naturalisation only call for a tabien baan in the list of documents for those applying on the basis of a Thai wife but don't specify that should be a TR 13.

My gut feeling is that a TR 14 would be OK as it is a tabien baan as proof of residence which is what they are looking for and SB will ask you to get the district office to confirm it is genuine anyway. However, you never know what nit picking stuff SB or the MoI could come up with and a TR 14 held by a non-PR might look irregular to them. There is no advantage to having a TR 14 compared to a TR 13 anyway apart from bragging rights. So I would go with Garry's advice to be safe and ask for a yellow TR 13, if you can. Be sure to have your parents' full names and nationalities entered into your tabien baan. The district office may need evidence of that from your embassy. If that detail is missing, you will be made to get it filled in by SB to prove they weren't illegal immigrants!

Ok got the TR 13 with no headaches at all they all very helpful at the Aumpur even offered to do the Pick card and also TR 14 if I wanted (will go into that later) for now I just need to ask a couple of questions before I go to submit again my completed doco's to SB -

1) on point 2) Certificate of residence (copy of every page with information recorded) – 5 copies. - where do I get that from? surely the TR 13 is proof of this? or as I been told its some letter from Immigration? if so what is the letter called in Thai?

2) on point 17) Affidavit from applicant’s embassy or consulate in Thailand that demonstrates the applicant’s intention to renounce his current nationality when his application for Thai nationality is approved. - I guess this would have to been in English as the British Embassy will not stamp a Thai version?

Thanks for you advise on these; hopefully, final points,....

Chris

[GarryP]

Ok got the TR 13 with no headaches at all they all very helpful at the Aumpur even offered to do the Pick card and also TR 14 if I wanted (will go into that later) for now I just need to ask a couple of questions before I go to submit again my completed doco's to SB -

1) on point 2) Certificate of residence (copy of every page with information recorded) – 5 copies. - where do I get that from? surely the TR 13 is proof of this? or as I been told its some letter from Immigration? if so what is the letter called in Thai?

2) on point 17) Affidavit from applicant’s embassy or consulate in Thailand that demonstrates the applicant’s intention to renounce his current nationality when his application for Thai nationality is approved. - I guess this would have to been in English as the British Embassy will not stamp a Thai version?

Thanks for you advise on these; hopefully, final points,....

Chris

1) The person who handled my application at SB crossed out 1), 2) 11) (I am an employee not a shareholder) and 16) as not required in my case. No PR applying based on marriage to a Thai.

2) Pop on down to the embassy, pick up a blank statutory declaration form, fill in your declaration by hand and then have it endorsed.

The wording I used was suggested by Arkady:

"In connection with my recent application for naturalization as a Thai citizen, I do solemnly and sincerely swear that I intend to renounce my British citizenship when I have received permission from the competent Thai authorities to become naturalized as a Thai citizen."

[bkkfoxi]

Ok got the TR 13 with no headaches at all they all very helpful at the Aumpur even offered to do the Pick card and also TR 14 if I wanted (will go into that later) for now I just need to ask a couple of questions before I go to submit again my completed doco's to SB -

1) on point 2) Certificate of residence (copy of every page with information recorded) – 5 copies. - where do I get that from? surely the TR 13 is proof of this? or as I been told its some letter from Immigration? if so what is the letter called in Thai?

2) on point 17) Affidavit from applicant’s embassy or consulate in Thailand that demonstrates the applicant’s intention to renounce his current nationality when his application for Thai nationality is approved. - I guess this would have to been in English as the British Embassy will not stamp a Thai version?

Thanks for you advise on these; hopefully, final points,....

Chris

1) The person who handled my application at SB crossed out 1), 2) 11) (I am an employee not a shareholder) and 16) as not required in my case. No PR applying based on marriage to a Thai.

2) Pop on down to the embassy, pick up a blank statutory declaration form, fill in your declaration by hand and then have it endorsed.

The wording I used was suggested by Arkady:

"In connection with my recent application for naturalization as a Thai citizen, I do solemnly and sincerely swear that I intend to renounce my British citizenship when I have received permission from the competent Thai authorities to become naturalized as a Thai citizen."

thanks for that it's kinda the thought I got also 1) 2) 11) and 16) also where crossed out so I would use the TR 13 for point 13) correct?

I also got that advise of letter from Arkady so thanks to you both on this

Cheers

Chris

BTW Garry where and when did you apply - and where do you stand in the process now? just out of interest not wishing to pry - for me will submit this week at SB Nontaburi,...

Edited June 3, 2013 by bkkfoxi

[GarryP]

TR 13 is for point 5) - 5 copies of house registration for the whole family including applicant, wife or husband and children, if any.

Edited June 3, 2013 by GarryP

[bkkfoxi]

TR 13 is for point 5) - 5 copies of house registration for the whole family including applicant, wife or husband and children, if any).

ok so 13) is just wife house documents and kids etc?

Cheers

[GarryP]

TR 13 is for point 5) - 5 copies of house registration for the whole family including applicant, wife or husband and children, if any).

ok so 13) is just wife house documents and kids etc?

Cheers

Birth certificates or ID cards of wife and kids.

Edited June 3, 2013 by GarryP

[Arkady]

Bkkfoxi. As you say, you will need to get the declaration at the embassy done in English and then you need to get it translated to Thai and have the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Consular Section in Chaengwattana certify the translation and verify the signature of the vice consul. The translation agency can arrange the MoFA bit for a fee but will take a few days over it. It's quite a hassle going to MoFA in CW yourself and there is a lot of waiting around for your number to be called. Also they often reject the translation on some minor technicality which is another reason to let the translation agency handle it. I am not sure, if SB tells you to do the MoFA step but it is worthwhile to avoid someone at the MoI challenging it years later. On the other hand I didn't get the translations of my educational credentials MoFAed on SB's advice but that seemed to me less potentially critical than the declaration and MoFA cannot verify the signatures, whereas they have sample signatures of all the consuls and vice consuls working at foreign consulates in Thailand.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Arkady

[Trembly]

When did they start making you supply evidence of intent to renounce your other citizenship?

Do you have to supply that if you're applying through marriage?

Edited June 3, 2013 by Trembly

[bkkfoxi]

Bkkfoxi. As you say, you will need to get the declaration at the embassy done in English and then you need to get it translated to Thai and have the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Consular Section in Chaengwattana certify the translation and verify the signature of the vice consul. The translation agency can arrange the MoFA bit for a fee but will take a few days over it. It's quite a hassle going to MoFA in CW yourself and there is a lot of waiting around for your number to be called. Also they often reject the translation on some minor technicality which is another reason to let the translation agency handle it. I am not sure, if SB tells you to do the MoFA step but it is worthwhile to avoid someone at the MoI challenging it years later. On the other hand I didn't get the translations of my educational credentials MoFAed on SB's advice but that seemed to me less potentially critical than the declaration and MoFA cannot verify the signatures, whereas they have sample signatures of all the consuls and vice consuls working at foreign consulates in Thailand.

thanks mate so in theory better I just get ALL my translations done before I submit them correct (not a question of money + I use a translation service that can go ahead and do all of this) just wanna submit the best case doco's I can!!

Thanks for your help as always I PM you later to invite you for dinner or a beer or as you like

Chris

EDIT:

Like I said I will Document this WHOLE process ( well as far as gathering documents and submitting them to all in a new post as and when I get there!!)

Edited June 3, 2013 by bkkfoxi

[chrisbinbkk99]

When did they start making you supply evidence of intent to renounce your other citizenship?

Do you have to supply that if you're applying through marriage?

Its an "Intent" not actual - even the british embassy made that clear - plus they said you (being a british citizen) can never loose your citizenship unless you go thru mindless documents and renounce the Queen Elizabeth etc,... (witch is treason in any kingdom) so no just an intent to do so....

[chrisbinbkk99]

Bkkfoxi. As you say, you will need to get the declaration at the embassy done in English and then you need to get it translated to Thai and have the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Consular Section in Chaengwattana certify the translation and verify the signature of the vice consul. The translation agency can arrange the MoFA bit for a fee but will take a few days over it. It's quite a hassle going to MoFA in CW yourself and there is a lot of waiting around for your number to be called. Also they often reject the translation on some minor technicality which is another reason to let the translation agency handle it. I am not sure, if SB tells you to do the MoFA step but it is worthwhile to avoid someone at the MoI challenging it years later. On the other hand I didn't get the translations of my educational credentials MoFAed on SB's advice but that seemed to me less potentially critical than the declaration and MoFA cannot verify the signatures, whereas they have sample signatures of all the consuls and vice consuls working at foreign consulates in Thailand.

So logical but if - for whatever reason - MOI say well I don't know that signature then what hope do we really have? I think I am just going to get MoFA to certify ALL my translated documents - based you your advise (witch is fantastic and thank you!!!)

Cheers

Chris

[Mario2008]

For certification you can submit the documents at the MFA and have them send back to you by EMS for 60 baht, which includes the envelope.

[Oasis]

For certification you can submit the documents at the MFA and have them send back to you by EMS for 60 baht, which includes the envelope.

In Chiang Mai this service is available at provincial hall, no need to go to MOFA Bkk if you are applying through Chiang Mai.

[GarryP]

Like Arkady I did not get translations of my limited education certificates MOFA'd.

You will need to get the embassy to certify a copy of your passport. When you have it translated, also get those couple of lines which appear under your picture translated too. I didn't the first time and MOFA refused to endorse it.

In the British passport the two lines I am talking about are something like this:

P<GB(SURNAME)<<(FIRST NAME)<(MIDDLE NAME)<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

(PASSPORT NUMBER)GBR(DATEOFBIRTH)(SOMEOTHERNUMBERS)<<<<<<<<<<<<<00

I assume bkkfoxi's TR 13 lists the names and nationalities of his parents. This is quite important. I was saved a lot of trouble by timely advice on this from Arkady.

[chrisbinbkk99]

Like Arkady I did not get translations of my limited education certificates MOFA'd. 

 

You will need to get the embassy to certify a copy of your passport. When you have it translated, also get those couple of lines which appear under your picture translated too. I didn't the first time and MOFA refused to endorse it.

 

In the British passport the two lines I am talking about are something like this:

 

P

(PASSPORT NUMBER)GBR(DATEOFBIRTH)(SOMEOTHERNUMBERS)<<<<<<<<<<<<<00

 

I assume bkkfoxi's TR 13 lists the names and nationalities of his parents. This is quite important. I was saved a lot of trouble by timely advice on this from Arkady. 

Great thanks for that and yes he also advised me the same regarding tr 13 so I made sure perants names where there! Many thanks again

Chris

Sent from my GT-I9300

[Arkady]

Bkkfoxi. As you say, you will need to get the declaration at the embassy done in English and then you need to get it translated to Thai and have the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Consular Section in Chaengwattana certify the translation and verify the signature of the vice consul. The translation agency can arrange the MoFA bit for a fee but will take a few days over it. It's quite a hassle going to MoFA in CW yourself and there is a lot of waiting around for your number to be called. Also they often reject the translation on some minor technicality which is another reason to let the translation agency handle it. I am not sure, if SB tells you to do the MoFA step but it is worthwhile to avoid someone at the MoI challenging it years later. On the other hand I didn't get the translations of my educational credentials MoFAed on SB's advice but that seemed to me less potentially critical than the declaration and MoFA cannot verify the signatures, whereas they have sample signatures of all the consuls and vice consuls working at foreign consulates in Thailand.

So logical but if - for whatever reason - MOI say well I don't know that signature then what hope do we really have? I think I am just going to get MoFA to certify ALL my translated documents - based you your advise (witch is fantastic and thank you!!!)

Cheers

Chris

It does no harm, as you never know when they are going to ask for something new. I wasn't asked for a translation of my passport.

[Arkady]

This article about increased workload of the MoI in verifying citizenship claims of those born in Thailand to alien or stateless persons before 1992 might help explain why the naturalisation process takes longer these days, although there may be other reasons. http://statelessprog.blogspot.com/2013/03/reflections-on-thailand-3-is-time-ripe.html . Note the Kafkaesque catch 22 that stateless children born in Thailand had no right to birth certificates before the 2008 Civil Registration Act and yet a birth certificate is the key evidence required to prove they were born in Thailand. The same MoI department processes naturalisation and foreign wives of Thai citizens applications and I don't think they have been allocated any additional staff or space to deal with the massive increase in workload.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Arkady

[MikeyIdea]

I have now read all the 32 pages in this excellent thread (special thanks to Arkady), far too fast to be certain I didn’t miss anything after page 20 though… I need to confirm a couple of things;

Is it a fixed rule that one must have made charitable donations?

Does the letter certifying the applicant’s employment really have to be stamped with a company seal? I work for an American multinational that happens to know that stamping legal documents with a company seal is not required according to Thai law and they therefore refuse to do it. Caused me some problems when doing my PR application…

Latest status for people with PR. Do they have to have PR for 5 years before applying or not?

My PR application is in but as with so many others, it is still collecting dust somewhere => No PR yet and I am not married although I have a Thai daughter. Any way I can apply for a Thai citizenship without being married or do I just have to wait for the PR?

Thanks

MikeyIdea

[Mario2008]

Earlier post by me retracted.

Yes, having a Thai child seems to be enough.

See: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a102367-Guidelines-for-Application-for-Natu.html

But could mean that the child must be living with you! Best is to inquire with special branch how they feel about this.

[MikeyIdea]

Thanks Mario and good to see you I had to stop posting in the family forum as work got affected but I still read it, I still get PMs from members sometimes

Yes, I read that and it does indeed seem to be enough. Good News

3 questions left

Is it a fixed rule that one must have made charitable donations?

Does the letter certifying the applicant’s employment really have to be stamped with a company seal? I work for an American multinational that happens to know that stamping legal documents with a company seal is not required according to Thai law and they therefore refuse to do it. Caused me some problems when doing my PR application…

Latest status for people with PR. Do they have to have PR for 5 years before applying or not?

MikeyIdea