Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[yankee99]

2 minutes ago, greenchair said:

That would be worth doing. 

I know many people that applied for citizenship and non of them renounced their citizenship. 

It doesn't say that in any of the laws. It's not so much losing your money, but losing your citizenship when it is unnecessary is a big thing. Please be sure you have all the information before taking such a drastic step. 

It does say it and i am sure its been previously talked about somewhere in these 150 pages 

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Is that in the nationality act? ?

It is listed here. Guidelines and documents required for application for Thai citizenship by naturalization 

[ubonjoe]

A comment about moderation has been removed.

[ubonjoe]

17 minutes ago, greenchair said:

 

There is no set form of wording to renounce your citizenship, because you cannot renounce your citizenship. In the event you had your Thai citizenship revoked, you would be stateless. That is why people from Laos cannot get thai citizenship because their country will not allow dual citizenship.

If you look at the nationality act, you will see that nowhere does it say you must renounce your citizenship. 

It is just a statement that you intend to renounce your citizenship after you get the Thai citizenship. It does not mean you have to do it.

It is required to submit your application.

[Arkady]

The issue of the declaration has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread over the last 7 years, since it first appeared in the ministerial guidelines.  It is what it is and I see little point in opening a debate about whether it really exists in the guidelines or whether the ministry has the authority to issue guidelines - it does have the authority under the Act and, in common with most Thai legislation, the details of the implementation are mainly to be found in ministerial  regulations and guidelines which are at the sole discretion of the minister.

 

Therefore any further posts suggesting the guidelines do not exist or are unlawful or can be safely ignored by applicants will be deemed unhelpful and deleted.

[TheChiefJustice]

I applied for citizenship in 2007 and obtained it in 2012. I was never required to produce any document about renouncing my Australian citizenship although there was talk of such requirement around the time that I applied.

 

 

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[NewlyMintedThai]

Yes, the requirement was added later.


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[Arkady]

41 minutes ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

Yes, the requirement was added later.


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It appeared in the current guidlines that were published in Oct 2009. Any applicants who had not yet passed the MoI interview at that time were called back and asked for the declaration. 

 

If I were to speculate, I would suggest it was a bureaucratic backlash against the 2008 amendments that emanated from a Democrat Party lady MP's bill intended to end the discrimination against Thai women, whose foreign husbands didn't and still don't have the easy route to citizenship under Section 9.  The bureaucrats successfully fought off the attempt to open up Section 9 to foreign husbands but had to allow them exemption from the requirement for PR and knowledge of the Thai language, as a compromise.  It seems not beyond the bounds of possibility that the requirement for the declaration was a rearguard action to protect the Kingdom from the hordes of foreign men married to Thai women.  Only a few years earlier in a response to a complaint from Thai women made via the Ombudsman, the Council of State had ruled that the Minister was fully justified in enforcing the existing law that discriminated against foreign husbands as they could reasonably be viewed as a threat to national security.  

 

Section 9 is archaic, as the original reason for its existence (the automatic cancellation by most countries of citizenship of women who married aliens) no longer exists.  Eventually I think it is more likely that Section 9 will be scrapped than that foreign husbands will ever get access to it. 

[MrPatrickThai]

I'm going to Special Branch this week with my wife and 2 of my kids to hand in the documents. They said no appointment was to be made. Any ideas when the best time to go is, or does it not matter?

I hope not too many repeated visits will be necessary as it is quite far, and costs time/money.

[yankee99]

good luck

[Arkady]

27 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

I'm going to Special Branch this week with my wife and 2 of my kids to hand in the documents. They said no appointment was to be made. Any ideas when the best time to go is, or does it not matter?

I hope not too many repeated visits will be necessary as it is quite far, and costs time/money.

 

You can go any time as long as it is not to close to their lunch break or going home time.  I went there once at 3.30pm the day before a public holiday to pick up a document and there was only one police officer left - fortunately the one I wanted.

[MrPatrickThai]

2 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

You can go any time as long as it is not to close to their lunch break or going home time.  I went there once at 3.30pm the day before a public holiday to pick up a document and there was only one police officer left - fortunately the one I wanted.

Roughly how many times did you have to go to SB?

 

[Arkady]

19 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Roughly how many times did you have to go to SB?

 

 

I went there more times than I can remember but I live in Bkk, so it was no big deal for me.   You will at least have to make return visits do the tests, have the interview with the section director and sign the form when all is ready.   You may be able to combine the first two, if you ask them.  I went several times to deliver documents, some of which were wrong the first time, e.g. the bank statement was wrong twice, the declaration which was new then, so they didn't know what they wanted etc, etc.  I had to change my nationality from English to British in all my PR docs and WP  and get my parents' nationality entered in my tabien baan.  Then my file was knocked back by the MoI because of SB's mistake in the covering letter, so I had to update the company letter as well as repeat some of the tests and the interview with the director, who had forgotten completely that he had already interviewed me. I got just about every curved ball possible but most people only have to go there a handful of times.  You should also be able to send them documents by EMS or Kerry to save some visits.  You will get a call from the NIA a couple of months after you have signed the completed form to make an appointment at McD's Rathchprasong.  Then after the MoI interview and your Royal approval you go back to SB for the oath of allegiance and finally go to pick up your naturalisation certificate after you have been gazetted.    After that it is advisable to make an appointment with your Bkk district office to make sure they can accommodate you and it takes nearly a whole day to get a blue tabien baan as a Thai and an ID card.  I rushed over to my DO from SB clutching my new naturalisation certificate, only to be told they could only make an appointment for a week later.  When you have got your ID card, you can sign off from that district the same day and get the documents you need to re-register in your own district.          

[yankee99]

Can someone tell me what a affidavit confirming age of majority according to thai law is? 

[Arkady]

22 minutes ago, yankee99 said:

Can someone tell me what a affidavit confirming age of majority according to thai law is? 

 

It is an affidavit from your embassy confirming that you have reached whatever the age of majority is in your country.  Check with SB whether it is required or not for your nationality before you go to the trouble and expense of getting it and translating and notarising it.  For most nationalities that apply regularly the MoI has waived this because they are satisfied that they know what the age of majority is in those countries.  Since most applicants are over 40 anyway they are not taking much risk in waiving this requirement.

[MrPatrickThai]

On 7/31/2017 at 10:26 PM, Arkady said:

 

I went there more times than I can remember but I live in Bkk, so it was no big deal for me.   You will at least have to make return visits do the tests, have the interview with the section director and sign the form when all is ready.   You may be able to combine the first two, if you ask them.  I went several times to deliver documents, some of which were wrong the first time, e.g. the bank statement was wrong twice, the declaration which was new then, so they didn't know what they wanted etc, etc.  I had to change my nationality from English to British in all my PR docs and WP  and get my parents' nationality entered in my tabien baan.  Then my file was knocked back by the MoI because of SB's mistake in the covering letter, so I had to update the company letter as well as repeat some of the tests and the interview with the director, who had forgotten completely that he had already interviewed me. I got just about every curved ball possible but most people only have to go there a handful of times.  You should also be able to send them documents by EMS or Kerry to save some visits.  You will get a call from the NIA a couple of months after you have signed the completed form to make an appointment at McD's Rathchprasong.  Then after the MoI interview and your Royal approval you go back to SB for the oath of allegiance and finally go to pick up your naturalisation certificate after you have been gazetted.    After that it is advisable to make an appointment with your Bkk district office to make sure they can accommodate you and it takes nearly a whole day to get a blue tabien baan as a Thai and an ID card.  I rushed over to my DO from SB clutching my new naturalisation certificate, only to be told they could only make an appointment for a week later.  When you have got your ID card, you can sign off from that district the same day and get the documents you need to re-register in your own district.          

Wow, you certainly had to earn it! And how wonderful you are kind enough to share your experience with us newbies. 

When you say do the tests, what does this mean - after or before the SB interview? I just expected to go back next for the BigMac interview. Do you know if my wife/kids will have to go again? This is more of an inconvenience than myself jumping on a plane for an hour. I expect they have to go to the MOI meeting.

[MrPatrickThai]

 

I went to SB yesterday with my wife. I’ll never drive my car their again! Not one space in the car park, or the police hospital car park.

I got there about 9.30 and was surprised to see only 2 officers. We got an old one that didn’t seem to know exactly what he was doing. First, he said that we needed a special type of written letter from the amphur where we were married – the certificate wasn’t enough. When we saw the boss, he said that WASN'T needed.

He calculated my points at 46, but if I wanted more, I’d have to do a written test and sing the national anthems. Also, he couldn’t accept my qualifications as they hadn’t been translated. He said I could translate it myself but get an official stamp, but the guy next to him said I’d have to get it verified at my embassy. Also, my tax for last year was one month late. I told him I was abroad and it’s  better to do it late as less queues. I think we were unlucky getting this guy, as he seemed more interested in telling my how beautiful my kids and talking to them. He also asked if their dad could sing the royal anthem. I told him that I din’t think that was required anymore and he said it might be!

He said that my Thai character references had to live in Bangkok. They had told me on the phone that I needed two copies from each of them. He gave me the forms again and told me only one copy was required(confirmed by boss).

 

Also, I have to get letters from my kids' schools to prove they study there - first I heard of this. I joked that it would be easier if we said we didn't have any kids, He said it was a much easier process if you had kids!

 

The boss, on the other hand was very helpful, straight to the point -  lots of useful information. Asked for 3 more years of tax returns, 2554, 55, and 56. Also to get my qualifications translated, and suggested at a translation shop, with an official seal. Some confusion over that, as I asked if he meant verified at the MFA and he said no. I told him I believed there wasn’t such an official stamp.

Maybe getting it done at the embassy is better, as they check the degrees.

So "mai pen rai, just come back to Bangkok again"!

 

Oh, also forgot my wife's photos as I didn't read it right!

[Arkady]

8 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

 

I went to SB yesterday with my wife. I’ll never drive my car their again! Not one space in the car park, or the police hospital car park.

I got there about 9.30 and was surprised to see only 2 officers. We got an old one that didn’t seem to know exactly what he was doing. First, he said that we needed a special type of written letter from the amphur where we were married – the certificate wasn’t enough. When we saw the boss, he said that WASN'T needed.

He calculated my points at 46, but if I wanted more, I’d have to do a written test and sing the national anthems. Also, he couldn’t accept my qualifications as they hadn’t been translated. He said I could translate it myself but get an official stamp, but the guy next to him said I’d have to get it verified at my embassy. Also, my tax for last year was one month late. I told him I was abroad and it’s  better to do it late as less queues. I think we were unlucky getting this guy, as he seemed more interested in telling my how beautiful my kids and talking to them. He also asked if their dad could sing the royal anthem. I told him that I din’t think that was required anymore and he said it might be!

He said that my Thai character references had to live in Bangkok. They had told me on the phone that I needed two copies from each of them. He gave me the forms again and told me only one copy was required(confirmed by boss).

 

Also, I have to get letters from my kids' schools to prove they study there - first I heard of this. I joked that it would be easier if we said we didn't have any kids, He said it was a much easier process if you had kids!

 

The boss, on the other hand was very helpful, straight to the point -  lots of useful information. Asked for 3 more years of tax returns, 2554, 55, and 56. Also to get my qualifications translated, and suggested at a translation shop, with an official seal. Some confusion over that, as I asked if he meant verified at the MFA and he said no. I told him I believed there wasn’t such an official stamp.

Maybe getting it done at the embassy is better, as they check the degrees.

So "mai pen rai, just come back to Bangkok again"!

 

Oh, also forgot my wife's photos as I didn't read it right!

 

Sorry to hear you met an officer who sounds a bit flaky at SB.  The ones I met were all pretty clear cut and seemed to know what they were doing, even though it turned out later that mistakes were made.

 

Qualifications certainly need to be translated.  It depends on the director at SB whether the translation needs MFA notarisation.  At the time I applied they only wanted a translation with the translation agency's stamp on it.  As far as I know, most Western embassies don't notarise degree diplomas because they have no way of knowing whether they are genuine and have no interest in checking with educational institutions.  For PR these days I think you have to get them notarised by the issuing university and then get that notarisation further notarised by a Thai embassy in that country  (the documentation for PR is now more burdensome by some orders of magnitude).  But I would be surprised if you will need anything more than a translation certified by the translator or translation agency.  You can do it yourself and ask them to stamp but most of them will refuse, as they really want to do their own translation into Pijin English. However, they are sometimes willing to correct some of their horrendous errors, if you point them out nicely, although they will still claim they are right and that your correction is just for style. 

 

If your points are borderline you can pick up some additional points by singing the National and Royal Anthems correctly and by passing the reading and writing tests but you will not be required to sing at the MoI, if you are applying on the basis of marriage.  I am not sure whether they assessed you at 46 points without assuming any points for the Knowledge of Thailand test which is worth 10 points and is fairly simple, although getting full marks is not a given. 

 

Much is made of this concept that it somehow helps to have Thai children for citizenship (and PR). It doesn't. The law doesn't require you to have children and not having any will not make any difference to your application, if you meet the qualifications, except that you have to put up with priying  questions about why you don't have any.  I agree with you that it just creates nuisance value having Thai kids (even worse for PR since they demand DNA evidence they are your kids, even though having them makes no difference to the application.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they asked for verification of marriage, now or in future, if that is the basis of application, but so far I have never heard of this happening.

 

Finding a parking space in a government building in Bkk is a rarity and this one is slap in the middle of prime real estate.  The nearest readily available car par I know of is the Novotel in Siam Square but it's a bit of a hike.  You can also park way down Henri Dunant Road but it will also be a longish walk.  

[MrPatrickThai]

Thanks, as always, Arkady.

 

Have you ever heard of the tax returns being late and not accepted? No biggie really as I can get the other years, making 6 in total. 

 

The 46 points was not including the qualifications, so should be OK. 

 

Thanks, that's what I thought they meant, sing the royal songs to the SB, He did say there would be an easy multiple choice test. Also said they might ask for the full names of members of the royal family!

[GabbaGabbaHey]

21 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Also, I have to get letters from my kids' schools to prove they study there - first I heard of this.

 

This appears as point #14 in page 2 of the requirements (Evidence of education for yourself and for your children).

http://www.sb.police.go.th/AA/production/uploads/doc/1_06062553.pdf

 

[MrPatrickThai]

20 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

 

This appears as point #14 in page 2 of the requirements (Evidence of education for yourself and for your children).

http://www.sb.police.go.th/AA/production/uploads/doc/1_06062553.pdf

 

Yes, my mistake.

[Arkady]

12 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Thanks, as always, Arkady.

 

Have you ever heard of the tax returns being late and not accepted? No biggie really as I can get the other years, making 6 in total. 

 

The 46 points was not including the qualifications, so should be OK. 

 

Thanks, that's what I thought they meant, sing the royal songs to the SB, He did say there would be an easy multiple choice test. Also said they might ask for the full names of members of the royal family!

Do you mean that you filed your PND 91 or 90 personal tax return after the March 31 deadline, so your certification from the Revenue Dept also shows a receipt for a late fine?  I have never heard of this situation in applying for citizenship.  It is possible that SB and/or the MoI would regard this as "mai suay" but you will definitely need to submit evidence of tax filing and payment for the last three years certified by the RD, as required by the regulations.  Tax documents from periods before the last three complete tax years are not required and are usually refused, if offered.  I am confused as to why they would show any interest in those. 

 

Another quirk which has befallen myself and others is that SB may insist that the MoI needs to see that the monthly salary stated in your employment letter is exactly one twelfth  of the income you paid on.  I fell foul of this twice, since I was made to redo the salary letter etc two and a half years later, due to SB's mistake.  They apparently had no flexibility to take into account pay rises, bonuses, job changes, joint filing of tax with spouse  etc in the calendar year before application.  The small risk of having your file kicked back to SB for re-checking, as I did, is a good reason for doing one's utmost to remain in a job paying the minimum salary or more during the application process.  Certainly it is essential to maintain a work permit until your MoI interview, as it may be checked either on the interview day or shortly before.  It is also rare but not unheard of for people to be recalled to the MoI for a second interview, usually due to poor singing but sometimes to check some other detail.  That would also involve re-checking of WP and other docs.  

 

Singing the two songs correctly will get you 2 points.  These are by no means easy points, as you really have to sing the songs pretty well or risk being made to repeat them until you are a nervous wreck.  I managed it first time with a great deal of practice beforehand but I don't recommend it, unless you have to, really need the 2 points or can already sing the songs quite well.   Hint: the Royal Anthem is a lot harder than the National Anthem.  Reading is 3 points and writing is 2.  Speaking and understanding is 8, making a total of 15 for knowledge of Thai language.  For knowledge of Thailand (10 points), you should definitely be familiar with the full titles and less formal ways of referring to the senior members of the Royal Family e.g. "Nai Luang", "Prajaoyuuhua".  Any of these could come up. I think I was asked about the Queen's full title.  Questions on the Nationality Act also come up frequently, e.g. Q. At what point does an applicant for Thai nationality officially become Thai?  A. On publication in the Royal Gazette.  In one of the two times I had to take the test, I was asked a question about the minister's discretion in granting Thai nationality - according to the Act, it is up to his discretion. You should try to read the Nationality Act in Thai, if possible, or least familiarise yourelf with key vocab in it, e.g. naturalisation, citizenship, minister, discretion, Royal Gazette etc.  Other questions are likely to be about the provinces (how many?), regions, products, e.g. Q. What area of Thailand is famous for the production of mudmee Thai silk? - A.  Pakchong, Nakorn Ratchasima.  There could also be questions about the Constitution.  I think I got one about whether Thailand has a prime minister or a president and another featuring the phrase, "democracy under constitutional monarchy", although that one may be out of fashion now.  Finally they are fond of asking questions about themselves.  In the writing test I asked to write out from memory the full name and address of SB.  This could also feature in the Knowledge of Thailand test.  Before doing the test for the second time, they felt sorry for me having to do it again and seemed worried that the MoI might ask me some questions from it themselves to double check their work, which sounded strange and didn't happen.  Anyway they gave me part of their question bank to take home and swat up on but I don't think I have it any more.  The multiple choice format of the test is quite simple but is more challenging if you can't read Thai very well.  An officer will read out of the questions to you but it is, of course, harder, if you can't follow what he or she is saying in the text.  The good news is that they will probably let your wife help you, ostensibly in understanding the questions, but the proctoring  is not strict, or wasn't when I did it.  However, the test was brand new then and things might have changed.  A friendly officer might also drop hints in reading out the questions. You will need to get your wife to bone up for the test in order to help you, assuming she is allowed to.           

[anon789561]

My wife asked me years ago why don't you apply for citizenship? Simple. I am not standing in front of anyone singing. No way. That's where I draw the line. Did we make you sing for your British passport? No. That's just degrading.

[anon789561]

9 minutes ago, GarryP said:

I did not sing anything in front of anyone. Applying based on marriage means you do not have to sing if you do not want to. 

 

 

Delete this one too please. Answering a removed post. Thanks.

I thought you had to sing? Fair enough. I can't stand in front of people and sing. I can't even do karaoke for gods sake.

[Arkady]

10 minutes ago, Happy enough said:

I thought you had to sing? Fair enough. I can't stand in front of people and sing. I can't even do karaoke for gods sake.

 

Singing the two songs is required for those who apply on the basis of permanent residence but not those who apply on the basis of marriage to a Thai spouse.  For those who do have to sing at the Interior Ministry, as the OP pointed out, it is the highlight of the application process. Getting through this test, which involves singing unaccompanied into a conference room mic in front of about 30 civil servants, unscathed is uplifting and makes you feel like you have really earned your citizenship. It also means you can irritate your partner by singing along in cinemas.  

[MrPatrickThai]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

Do you mean that you filed your PND 91 or 90 personal tax return after the March 31 deadline, so your certification from the Revenue Dept also shows a receipt for a late fine?  I have never heard of this situation in applying for citizenship.  It is possible that SB and/or the MoI would regard this as "mai suay" but you will definitely need to submit evidence of tax filing and payment for the last three years certified by the RD, as required by the regulations.  Tax documents from periods before the last three complete tax years are not required and are usually refused, if offered.  I am confused as to why they would show any interest in those. 

 

Yes, I am confused too. I submitted evidence of paying tax for the last 3 years. However, I'll go to the RD and ask for what they asked for.

Yes, one form shows a receipt of a fine for being one month late but actually I was also late the year before and they said nothing about that! Gave too much info, perhaps. 

[MrPatrickThai]

I think the USA ask to sing the National Anthem and pledge allegiance to a flag!

[GabbaGabbaHey]

1 hour ago, Happy enough said:

My wife asked me years ago why don't you apply for citizenship? Simple. I am not standing in front of anyone singing. No way. That's where I draw the line. Did we make you sing for your British passport? No. That's just degrading.

That's your own judgement (You think it's degrading). I am applying for citizenship and frankly I'll be happy and proud to do the singing, if requested, perhaps also because I am proud to be applying.

[anon789561]

9 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

That's your own judgement (You think it's degrading). I am applying for citizenship and frankly I'll be happy and proud to do the singing, if requested, perhaps also because I am proud to be applying.

That should fair enough. I'm not knocking it but there's no way I can sing in front of people. It's just a no. But I understand you. That's cool. I just can't.

[anon789561]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

 

Singing the two songs is required for those who apply on the basis of permanent residence but not those who apply on the basis of marriage to a Thai spouse.  For those who do have to sing at the Interior Ministry, as the OP pointed out, it is the highlight of the application process. Getting through this test, which involves singing unaccompanied into a conference room mic in front of about 30 civil servants, unscathed is uplifting and makes you feel like you have really earned your citizenship. It also means you can irritate your partner by singing along in cinemas.  

5555. Ok. Irritating my wife. You've sold it. But don't you find that people don't really sing anymore since . . Just saying