Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[Arkady]

8 hours ago, carthaivisa said:

Thanks Arkady..what about social security no..did you change it too same as ID no. mentioned in Blue Tabian Baan as PR holder before getting Thai nationality...or should be changed only after getting Thai nationality (Thai ID)

 

That was more complicated.  I was not in the system before I moved to the large company because I was ineligible as a director of my own company.  The company put me in the SS system under the 'ersatz' temporary foreigner ID number they got for me.  When I tried to change it to the correct number, the SSO said that, for some reason better known to themselves, was impossible for a PR to do but I would be able to do when I became a citizen, which I did.  It required a form, copy of ID card, tabien baan and naturalisation certificate. 

[choonsan]

I have been a PR for almost 30 years.  Holding a work permit all the time. Had been on the social security program since it was first implemented. Changed companies 4 times and the latest is my own company with me holding 49%. Have been a director of my own company for almost 20 years now. And all these while, have been on the social security program and had 750 Baht deducted from my monthly salary since.

My ID, tax and social security numbers are all the same.

[choonsan]

On 17/11/2017 at 5:55 AM, greenchair said:

People need to understand that, even though we have thai citizenship. essentially we Continue to be guests in this country and our citizenship can be revoked at anytime . We are never really thai citizens in the true sense of the word ,in time of war or if behaving immorally we would be returned to the place of our birth. This is regardless of if you have "renounced " your original citizenship. You or I will never be considered true thai, because in fact we are not. We continue to be guests in a foreign country albeit with a few privileges enjoyed by birth citizens. I always remember that .

We are all guest in this Big Wide World. Our guest status can be revoked anytime; may it be due to old age, illness, fatal accident or a court sentence for serious crime.

[choonsan]

13 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Out of curiosity, do PR holders keep their 8xxx ID number after getting naturalized?

My 13 digit ID number starts with 5. It is the same number shown in my blue book, pink ID card, driver's license, tax records and also social security.

[Arkady]

7 hours ago, choonsan said:

I have been a PR for almost 30 years.  Holding a work permit all the time. Had been on the social security program since it was first implemented. Changed companies 4 times and the latest is my own company with me holding 49%. Have been a director of my own company for almost 20 years now. And all these while, have been on the social security program and had 750 Baht deducted from my monthly salary since.

My ID, tax and social security numbers are all the same.

Directors are not eligible for SS for some unknown reason (probably to reduce the burden on the fund)  but, if they haven't notice that, you are fine.  When I applied as a director I was rejected. 

[yankee99]

Spouses of directors also are not eligible even if they are not a shareholder.

[greenchair]

9 hours ago, choonsan said:

We are all guest in this Big Wide World. Our guest status can be revoked anytime; may it be due to old age, illness, fatal accident or a court sentence for serious crime.

That's deep. 

I wasn't trying to be deep, I was pointing out that some  people that get upset when not feeling completely accepted as thai after not receiving citizenship should be aware that they will never in fact be considered thai because of the laws that can be invoked at anytime. I wasn't trying to be phylisofical.

Go on someone. Correct my spelling. 

[NewlyMintedThai]

I don’t know what laws that can be invoked any time you’re talking about are. You would either have gotten your citizenship through gross fraud or done something on the order of grand treason to trigger the ministerial action that would be required to revoke citizenship. In a nutshell, it isn’t going to happen. Once you’re Thai you’re Thai — regardless of what the scare-mongers and Debbie downers might tell you.


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[greenchair]

9 minutes ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

I don’t know what laws that can be invoked any time you’re talking about are. You would either have gotten your citizenship through gross fraud or done something on the order of grand treason to trigger the ministerial action that would be required to revoke citizenship. In a nutshell, it isn’t going to happen. Once you’re Thai you’re Thai — regardless of what the scare-mongers and Debbie downers might tell you.


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Oh rubbish. 

Go and read it. 

It says your citizenship can  possibly be revoked in times of war or if you engage in immoral behaviour . The perogative rests with the minister. 

If you commit a crime against a Thai and went to prison, you would most likely lose your citizenship upon release. If your country and thailand were at war, and you were seen as a security threat you would lose your citizenship and deported. It's up to the minister. 

This is the case in most countries. I'm no Debbie downer.

I'm a realistic Rachel. And I can read. 

[NewlyMintedThai]

Believe what you want to believe, “Rachel”. It has never happened and never will. Unless maybe you were planning to commit espionage against the state or maybe have sex with a goat in the Temple of the Emerald Buddha.


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[Neeranam]

What about if I have kids after getting citizenship, will they be considered "real" Thais?

Edited November 18, 2017 by Neeranam

[greenchair]

Just now, Neeranam said:

What about if I have kids after greeting citizenship, will they be considered "real" Thais?

Sure 

[NewlyMintedThai]

What about if I have kids after getting citizenship, will they be considered "real" Thais?

Yes, they will be considered Thai from birth rather than naturalized.


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[greenchair]

4 minutes ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

Believe what you want to believe, “Rachel”. It has never happened and never will. Unless maybe you were planning to commit espionage against the state or maybe have sex with a goat in the Temple of the Emerald Buddha.


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Immoral behaviour can mean downloading porn. 

Fraud, bonking prostitits and posting dirty pics  on fb. Selling yaba 

It hasn't happened because the people that have been arrested for these things were not made citizens. I am still right. In order to retain it you need to behave. 

Therefore you can never be a true citizen. Einstein. 

[NewlyMintedThai]

No one who ever became a naturalized citizen bonked a prostitute? OK, “Einstein”.

 

So you wasted years getting a document you think can be easily revoked on someone’s whimsy. Not very bright.

 

 

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[Arkady]

l think the case of the couple whose citizenship was revoked in 2004 for running an illegal lottery business, as serious criminal offence, is illustrative.  Sixteen years later in 2016 the Administrative Court reversed the minister's decision and restored their citizenship.  If you look at the Royal Gazette, you will see that historically, revocation of citizenship for offences against public morals only has only been done in the case of serious criminal offences like drug smuggling.  It is not going to happen over trivial issues like traffic offences.  Even for serious criminal offences the minister risks getting it overturned by the Administrative Court. 

 

Permanent residence should be a lot easier to cancel but this also rarely happens.  If you recall the case of the Indian guy whose PR was revoked for speaking at anti Thaksin rallies, you will remember that the Administrative Court also overturned that decision.  On the other hand many people on ordinary visas get deported and blacklisted for a whole range of offences.    

[NewlyMintedThai]

If you’re caught running drugs, the remote possibility of losing your citizenship will be the least of your worries...


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[greenchair]

4 hours ago, Arkady said:

l think the case of the couple whose citizenship was revoked in 2004 for running an illegal lottery business, as serious criminal offence, is illustrative.  Sixteen years later in 2016 the Administrative Court reversed the minister's decision and restored their citizenship.  If you look at the Royal Gazette, you will see that historically, revocation of citizenship for offences against public morals only has only been done in the case of serious criminal offences like drug smuggling.  It is not going to happen over trivial issues like traffic offences.  Even for serious criminal offences the minister risks getting it overturned by the Administrative Court. 

 

Permanent residence should be a lot easier to cancel but this also rarely happens.  If you recall the case of the Indian guy whose PR was revoked for speaking at anti Thaksin rallies, you will remember that the Administrative Court also overturned that decision.  On the other hand many people on ordinary visas get deported and blacklisted for a whole range of offences.    

I never said it could be revoked over  trivial issues. I did say for serious offence, meaning a jailable offence, rape, drugs, murder, serious assault . By the way that man had been in Thailand around 50 years, was very involved with trade between thailand and India, he was not some foreigner that had been here a few years running a bar.I don't understand why you 2 keep fighting about this. Under special circumstances your citizenship can be revoked though it is rare and unlikely, it can happen and is possible according to the law. Which is impossible to do for a true thai. I am right. 

[skippybangkok]

I never said it could be revoked over  trivial issues. I did say for serious offence, meaning a jailable offence, rape, drugs, murder, serious assault . By the way that man had been in Thailand around 50 years, was very involved with trade between thailand and India, he was not some foreigner that had been here a few years running a bar.I don't understand why you 2 keep fighting about this. Under special circumstances your citizenship can be revoked though it is rare and unlikely, it can happen and is possible according to the law. Which is impossible to do for a true thai. I am right. 

 

 

Not sure what your trying to achieve.

 

If what you say is true, it’s great, cause can send the riff raff back home and retain the keepers

 

Good clause to keep and I would support it

 

 

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[greenchair]

5 hours ago, skippybangkok said:

 

 

Not sure what your trying to achieve.

 

If what you say is true, it’s great, cause can send the riff raff back home and retain the keepers

 

Good clause to keep and I would support it

 

 

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I'm not trying to achieve anything, but I don't like to be accused of being stupid or talking rubbish when I am right. So I pointed out that the nationality law says the minister retains the right to revoke citizenship in times of war or immoral behaviour or national security which would include the computer crime act. I said that means we are not ever truly a citizen like thai. The other 2 said I was talking rubbish. And after admitting that I am right but stupid because it would never happen, they continue to weavel out of the fact of that law, that all non native citizens should be aware of. 

Even with citizenship, we are still only guests in Thailand. 

And thank you for supporting that I at least have a fair point. 

[samran]

46 minutes ago, greenchair said:

I'm not trying to achieve anything, but I don't like to be accused of being stupid or talking rubbish when I am right. 

God forbid someone accuses you of providing layman’s knowledge or being a scaremonger...

[NewlyMintedThai]

I never said it could be revoked over  trivial issues.

Like sleeping with a prostitute? Really, now...


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[skippybangkok]

I'm not trying to achieve anything, but I don't like to be accused of being stupid or talking rubbish when I am right. So I pointed out that the nationality law says the minister retains the right to revoke citizenship in times of war or immoral behaviour or national security which would include the computer crime act. I said that means we are not ever truly a citizen like thai. The other 2 said I was talking rubbish. And after admitting that I am right but stupid because it would never happen, they continue to weavel out of the fact of that law, that all non native citizens should be aware of. 
Even with citizenship, we are still only guests in Thailand. 
And thank you for supporting that I at least have a fair point. 

I believe other countries have similar laws - I think UK pushed a few radical imams out ?


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[greenchair]

49 minutes ago, skippybangkok said:

 

I believe other countries have similar laws - I think UK pushed a few radical imams out ?


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That's right. All countries reserve the right to revoke citizenship. 

We only ever get 1 true citizenship. 

A second citizenship is just a better visa with privileges. 

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, NewlyMintedThai said:

 

Like sleeping with a prostitute? Really, now...


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You are the one obsessed with prostitutes. 

I just quoted the law which says immoral behaviour. If you want to add sexing prostitutes for money that's your progative. I don't do that so I guess that's one immoral behaviour I don't have to worry about. 

Are you worried newly mint? ??

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, samran said:

God forbid someone accuses you of providing layman’s knowledge or being a scaremonger...

Layman, scaremonger. 

Perhaps knowledgeable would be more accurate. 

Go and read it. 

As skippy pointed out, most if not all countries retain the right to revoke citizenship. 

It happened a few years ago to a Thai. Went to America as a baby, doesn't speak a word of thai. Got 2 years for assault, his citizenship was revoked and he was sent back. Amnesty international was trying to help for humanitarian reasons. 

You are a guest with privileges. 

 

[greenchair]

Question. 

Can aquired citizenship ever be revoked? 

Answer. 

Yes! 

Question. 

Can birth citizenship ever be revoked ?

Answer. 

No, way. No, where. No, why. 

No, how. 

I hope that clears everything up. 

 

[BaanBKK]

24 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Question. 

Can aquired citizenship ever be revoked? 

Answer. 

Yes! 

Question. 

Can birth citizenship ever be revoked ?

Answer. 

No, way. No, where. No, why. 

No, how. 

I hope that clears everything up. 

 

First off, your contentions regarding birth citizenship revocation are not at all based upon fact or law (at least as far as US law is concerned). 

The Immigration and Nationality Act of the USA § 349 states that a citizen, whether a U.S. citizen by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing certain acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality. The fact of intention is critical; it is not the mere performance of the actions mentioned in § 349. Seven types of conduct are currently listed in the INA as expatriate. The potentially expatriating acts are: (1) applying for and obtaining naturalization in a foreign country, provided the person is at least 18 years old; (2) making an oath of allegiance to a foreign country, provided the person is at least 18 years old; (3) serving in the military of a foreign country as a commissioned or noncommissioned officer or when the foreign state is engaged in hostilities against the United States; (4) serving in a foreign government position that requires an oath of allegiance to or the nationality of that foreign country, provided the person is at least 18 years old; (5) making a formal renunciation of U.S. citizenship to a consular officer outside of the United States; (6) making a formal renunciation of citizenship while in the United States and during time that the United States is involved in a war; and (7) conviction for treason or attempting by force to overthrow the U.S. government, including conspiracy convictions. Later case law has added some interpretational nuance to the above, but this remains the case. 

 

Before you go off on some half-cocked overly broad sloppy analysis of nationality law around the world let me re-quote you directly: you stated "Can birth citizenship ever be revoked? Answer. No, way. No, where. No, why." As pointed out above, even without a clear renunciation of citizenship, US law allows for the revocation of birthright citizenship. The threshold for revoking such citizenship is rather high and requires some rather overt actions, and inferred intent, but it CAN and has happened. 

 

I'm not usually the type of person that would normally respond to someone such as you posting on ThaiVisa, but I keep track of this thread as it has proven very useful and enlightening with respect to the process of naturalizing to Thai nationality. As you and other readers may be aware the process of naturalizing is stressful and frustrating at the best of times. This thread is true godsend in that it provides useful information as well as helpful personal insight into the thought processes and policies underlying both the law on the topic as well as the bureaucratic mechanism used to enforce such law. In short, I find it to be a valuable resource and those who take the time to come onto this and share their own experiences and understanding should be commended especially as they seem to do so out of a sincere desire to assist others.

 

You, on the other hand, seem to desire to act, at best, as a contrarian on this thread or, at worst, as a source of erroneous information. I think it can be inferred from the tone of other readers that your commentary is considered neither useful nor appreciated. If it is not already obvious, I would agree.

Edited November 20, 2017 by BaanBKK

[NewlyMintedThai]

You are the one obsessed with prostitutes. 
I just quoted the law which says immoral behaviour. If you want to add sexing prostitutes for money that's your progative. I don't do that so I guess that's one immoral behaviour I don't have to worry about. 
Are you worried newly mint? ?[emoji23]

Honey, you are the one who clearly stated that fooling around with prostitutes was grounds for revocation of citizenship. Remember? Or do I have to quote it? I’m not worried — never have been — and no one else should be, either. Time to move on from this ridiculous line of conversation, which is absolutely of no use to anyone.


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[samran]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

You are a guest with privileges. 

 

Moi? No actually....

 

On 11/7/2017 at 10:03 AM, greenchair said:

Just a reminder to people, this is a topic full of scaremongers and layman's information. Please take it with a grain of salt and go to the relevant authorities when you are not sure. 

you can say that again!! 555

Edited November 20, 2017 by samran