Bangkok Pattaya Hospital..Where is the Care?...

[Mobi]

What makes you think this story is now the correct one?

We'll probably never know for sure.

You believe what you want to believe.

I have no doubt what the majority of right thinking people of Pattaya think.

Edited May 26, 2007 by Mobi D'Ark

[Barryz]

What makes you think this story is now the correct one?

We'll probably never know for sure.

You believe what you want to believe.

I have no doubt what the majority of right thinking people of Pattaya think.

Well, I try to believe only what the evidence supports. In the absence of sufficient evidence I try to keep an open mind.

The majority is not always right, by the way.

[MP5]

“Those who are free of resentful thoughts surely find peace.”

— Buddha

[Mobi]

“Those who are free of resentful thoughts surely find peace.”

— Buddha

And so say all of us.

[farangfool]

It seems that we are having some substantial success in bringing out the news and demonstrating a pattern of callous conduct at the BPH. It would be nice to learn the name of the administrator who was prepared to let the pregnant woman and her baby die. Outing such cruel bastards should be a prime purpose of this forum. Ideally a dig photo to make their shame really public.

The cheap accusations of conspiracy theories by some (of course totally disinterested) detractors dont bother me. It is about our lives. I hope that they will put their skin to their cheap talk and undergo critical procedures at the BHP. After that I will accept their expert statements (to some extent).

We still need to get the word out to the larger Thai community. This appears to be an almost farang only thread. Am i wrong?

[thai_narak]

The anecdotes are not 'few'. There are literally dozens and dozens, as long term members of this forum can attest to.

I would ask you to consider that what is this forum if it is not – for the most part – a collection of anecdotes - with conclusions and opinions arising from those anecdotes?

And yes – you are right – Chonburi hospital is an unbelievable dump and your proposition is utterly preposterous.

Hospitals treat thousands of people each year. A dozen anecdotes is a very few and a few dozen anecdotes is still a few. I'm not 'poo pooing' the concept of an anecdote and I certainly don't need a dictionary definition of the term. I'm simply saying that you cannot arrive at the truth of what happened here through a small collection of anecdotes that do not have any direct bearing on this particular tragedy.

We already have a situation here where people were prepared to believe that the BKK hospital had turned away a seriously injured man (on the grounds he didn't have any ID on his person) and allowed him to be driven another 45 minutes in the back of a pick-up truck to another hospital. It now appears that was simply not true, yet some people were prepared to act upon that misinformation and withdraw their support for the BKK hospital, cancel their registration, whatever.

I agree, however, we still need an more convincing explanation from the BKK hospital as to why the blood supplies could not be brought to the patient. It might well be the case that administrative matters took priority here and a life was consequently lost. But I wouldn't assume this to be the case without further evidence of the non-anecdotal variety.

Barry, i cannot help but to comment on this post. let me ask you this question, would you like to wait 45 minutes when you are dying and dangerously needing blood?

I pray to God that you don't end up in Matt's situation...

[Barryz]

The anecdotes are not 'few'. There are literally dozens and dozens, as long term members of this forum can attest to.

I would ask you to consider that what is this forum if it is not – for the most part – a collection of anecdotes - with conclusions and opinions arising from those anecdotes?

And yes – you are right – Chonburi hospital is an unbelievable dump and your proposition is utterly preposterous.

Hospitals treat thousands of people each year. A dozen anecdotes is a very few and a few dozen anecdotes is still a few. I'm not 'poo pooing' the concept of an anecdote and I certainly don't need a dictionary definition of the term. I'm simply saying that you cannot arrive at the truth of what happened here through a small collection of anecdotes that do not have any direct bearing on this particular tragedy.

We already have a situation here where people were prepared to believe that the BKK hospital had turned away a seriously injured man (on the grounds he didn't have any ID on his person) and allowed him to be driven another 45 minutes in the back of a pick-up truck to another hospital. It now appears that was simply not true, yet some people were prepared to act upon that misinformation and withdraw their support for the BKK hospital, cancel their registration, whatever.

I agree, however, we still need an more convincing explanation from the BKK hospital as to why the blood supplies could not be brought to the patient. It might well be the case that administrative matters took priority here and a life was consequently lost. But I wouldn't assume this to be the case without further evidence of the non-anecdotal variety.

Barry, i cannot help but to comment on this post. let me ask you this question, would you like to wait 45 minutes when you are dying and dangerously needing blood?

I pray to God that you don't end up in Matt's situation...

Of course I wouldn't like to wait 45 minutes. I wouldn't like to wait even 5 minutes. But just supposing someone explained the situation that I could wait 90 minutes in the BKK hospital whilst blood supplies were being organised and transported, or 45 minutes in a well equipped ambulance. Which would I prefer then?

There seems to be an assumption amongst the make-believe medical experts in this thread that getting blood supplies to the patient might have been as simple as reaching into the fridge, throwing a few bottles of the stuff into an esky then slinging the esky onto the pillion of a waiting police motor cyclist who would then rush to the BKK hospital, sirens blazing.

Let me paint a perhaps more realistic scenario that could be closer to the truth for all I know and for all you know.

The BKK hospital is in touch with the Chonburi hospital. They explain the situation that they are in urgent need of supplies of a rare blood group. Chonburi explains that they have no ambulances or suitable courier service available to despatch the blood immediately and that there might be a considerable delay before they could organise the transportation of the blood.

Furthermore, it is the policy of the BKK hospital to cross check the blood type before using it. Their reputation is such that they could not trust another hospital not to make a mistake. (Imagine the brouhaha that would ensue if Matt had died because he was given the wrong blood type. All you guys would be asking, 'Why did the hospital not check that the blood was the right type before administering it to Matt? Then the hospital would have to explain, 'Well, we didn't have time to carry out proper procedures. We just assumed it was the right blood type because the label said so." Uh!)

Now maybe, taking all such possible factors into consideration, someone might have genuinely made a decision that was thought at the time to be in the best interests of Matt. Perhaps it was the wrong decision. We simply don't know whether Matt would have lived if he'd had to wait at the BKK hospital possibly 90 minutes for blood supplies to arrive, be processed and checked.

There might also have been other issues that the BKK hospital would naturally be reluctant to mention because it would be unprofessional to start shifting blame. It would also involve loss of face. Let's think of a few.

(1) The police were unavailable or not interested in acting as couriers for transport of blood supplies.

(2) The Chonburi hospital genuinely is short of ambulances and blood supply couriers. It's the main hospital for emergency accident victims and its resources are overstretched.

(3) The medical specialist(s) at the BKK hospital who is best qualified and experienced to deal with Matt's particular needs just happened to be off duty at the time, or perhaps he was even attending to someone at the Chonburi hospital. In Australia, specialists flit between the public system and the private system according to needs.

Now clearly, I don't know how true the above scenario might be. However, many of the posters in this thread remind of the lynching mobs that often featured in Western movies I used to watch when I was a kid.

[Mobi]

However, many of the posters in this thread remind of the lynching mobs that often featured in Western movies I used to watch when I was a kid.

With statements like that, at least we don't have to take you seriously any more or bother to read your diatribe.

If we are a lynching mob - you are truly off with the fairies - or is it the great God chang?

[Barryz]

However, many of the posters in this thread remind of the lynching mobs that often featured in Western movies I used to watch when I was a kid.

With statements like that, at least we don't have to take you seriously any more or bother to read your diatribe.

If we are a lynching mob - you are truly off with the fairies - or is it the great God chang?

If you don't want to take me seriously, would you prefer to listen to the Chief Executive Officer of a Blood Transportation Company expounding on the dangers and the complexity of transporting blood?

The following quote from an interview in South Africa gives some insight into the problems, dangers and wastage resulting from untrained people with inadequate facilities being asked to transport blood to the needy patient. I'll highlight in bold a few relevant paragraphs.

Blood Transport

by Eugene Botha & Derek Watts - Carte Blanche

Derek Watts (Carte Blanche presenter): 'We all know that blood can sometimes be a crucial life saver We don't always know what it can cost. Let me give you a little comparison. A barrel of oil comes in at about $70 - that is less than R500. A barrel of processed blood, if it came in barrels, would cost you half a million rand.'

But blood is not only costly; it is also a very scarce resource. The last few weeks thousands of operations had to be postponed nationwide because, like so many times before, the blood supply ran out.

And blood is in short supply because there is a huge wastage of the blood supplied by the South African National Blood Service.

Ricky Montalbano (CEO Blood Transportation Company): 'I don't know what the wastage is in the government sector, but I can tell you that you in the private sector we are returning 23% of blood.'

Ravi Reddy (Technical Director SANBS): 'There might be specific or certain isolated areas where it could be as low as 23%, but my estimate would be that in certain sectors it is between 5-10%.'

This wastage is the direct result of blood not being transported correctly, because any blood transported incorrectly is considered a health risk, and is destroyed.

Derek: 'This is a unit of group O blood. It is called red cell concentrate, and it is ready for any emergency. It is kept here at the blood bank under strictly controlled conditions. This fridge must operate between one and six degrees centigrade. But getting the blood from here to the patient is not that simple'

Because when the blood leaves the blood bank, all the professional care taken in collecting blood, processing it and keeping it at exactly the right temperature simply flies out the window. Now anything goes

At the National Blood Service's blood bank, located at the Johannesburg General Hospital, we found a variety of people in vehicles of any shape and size, armed with cooler boxes, showing up to fetch blood for hospitals and clinics. Even taxi services were involved.

The cooler boxes in use are ordinary cooler boxes, and the valuable blood is treated in the same way as one would pack for a picnic.

Blood courier: 'I have icepacks, but they are not frozen. When I collect the blood, I get ice from them.'

The couriers also had no hesitation in opening the contents, despite the fact that this would expose the blood, on that day, to temperatures of over 28 degrees.

There are no thermometers and there is no way to monitor the temperature inside the box.

Blood courier: 'There is probably a specific temperature, but I am not sure what that is. They just say your cooler box has to be ice cold.'

In the same container, we found a variety of blood products - some supposed to be kept at four to eight degrees and others supposed to be kept frozen.

It was a tight squeeze and the lid could not close properly.

This highly sophisticated cargo, worth nearly forty thousand rand, was entrusted to an untrained person.

Blood courier: 'Basically I had no training. They just said you needed a driver's licence. You should not be scared of blood. I mean, you work with the blood.'

Blood courier 2: 'Look, I don't handle the blood. I don't give it to the patient, so I don't need any training.'

Ricky Motalbano, a medical doctor involved in blood transport, says this scenario is typical, and unacceptable.

Now tell me, who is off with the fairies? The full article can be read at http://www.werkomed.co.za/Articles.aspx?tid=2

Edited May 27, 2007 by Barryz

[suiging]

Is he trying to say that the great BPH does not know how to follow this simple procedure ?

[larvidchr]

To barryz.

There is no doubt whatsoever that this website and other means of pressure have forced BPH to make their statements, further more there is a good chance, that this pressure might help to keep BPH on their toes, and be more carefull in the future, it is in the best interest of us all that the medical care is as good as possible.

The posters here have brought pressure to bear on BPH, some of the posts might have been sligthly over the top or not 100% accurate, but they have still contributed to the pressure on BPH, you cant expect laymen to be correct about every little detail, but that is not the point either, in the grand scheme of things this have been to try to ensure better care for all.

As I have posted to another word warrior, you dont seem to grasb this, is it any skin of your nose if some posts are less than 100% accurate, as long as the intentions is right, the fact of the matter is that you are not helping the slightets little bit, in fact you are doing the quite reversal, nobody is interested in your theories, as you say they might be just as wrong / right as the other line of posts, why you post something like that, the same time you you protests what you percive as wrong therories by others is beyond me, two wrongs dont make a right barryz.

This is far to importent for everybody, to be made a playground for your whishes to argue non importent details, please try to understand that, i am sure BPH can do without you as their knight in shining armor, they are the ones in a position of strenght, not TV`s members.

You would do everybody a good turn if you took your fighting spirit to some more appropiate thread, and I am sure there would be some TV members to accomodate you there.

Have a very nice day.

Kind regards

[Barryz]

Is he trying to say that the great BPH does not know how to follow this simple procedure ?

No, he's trying to say that maybe the available Thai couriers would not have known how to follow this simple procedure and that the great BPH, according to their own statement on this issue, have said that any blood supplies they received from another hospital by courier, or on a policeman's bike, would have to be checked to ensure it was the right type and still in good condition. Not only would this take extra time but if there did prove to be something wrong with the blood for whatever reason; wrong temperature, callous mishandling of the samples etc., then precious time really would have been lost in the attempt to save Matt's life.

He's also trying to say that the BKK Pattaya Hospital is probably more aware of these difficulties than most of the posters in this thread, possibly because they have experienced before many instances of blood being damaged during hasty transport by inexperienced personnel.

[Barryz]

To barryz.

There is no doubt whatsoever that this website and other means of pressure have forced BPH to make their statements, further more there is a good chance, that this pressure might help to keep BPH on their toes, and be more carefull in the future, it is in the best interest of us all that the medical care is as good as possible.

The posters here have brought pressure to bear on BPH, some of the posts might have been sligthly over the top or not 100% accurate, but they have still contributed to the pressure on BPH, you cant expect laymen to be correct about every little detail, but that is not the point either, in the grand scheme of things this have been to try to ensure better care for all.

As I have posted to another word warrior, you dont seem to grasb this, is it any skin of your nose if some posts are less than 100% accurate, as long as the intentions is right, the fact of the matter is that you are not helping the slightets little bit, in fact you are doing the quite reversal, nobody is interested in your theories, as you say they might be just as wrong / right as the other line of posts, why you post something like that, the same time you you protests what you percive as wrong therories by others is beyond me, two wrongs dont make a right barryz.

This is far to importent for everybody, to be made a playground for your whishes to argue non importent details, please try to understand that, i am sure BPH can do without you as their knight in shining armor, they are the ones in a position of strenght, not TV`s members.

You would do everybody a good turn if you took your fighting spirit to some more appropiate thread, and I am sure there would be some TV members to accomodate you there.

Have a very nice day.

Kind regards

No. It's no skin off my nose if posts are less than 100% accurate. But what if they are 100% wrong? That certainly does not but pressure on BPH to lift its game. In fact it can have the opposite effect. It certainly would with me. Wouldn't it with you?

Let's suppose you knew you had honestly done your best in a difficult situation, with the patient's best interests in mind, but things unavoidably went wrong and a bunch of people who kew nothing about the circumstances, or medical procedures in general, started attacking you for being incompetent and uncaring. How could you possibly lift your game? I suggest what would happen is you would become demoralised, would lose respect for your attackers and might even consider leaving the profession.

If you want BHP to lift its game by putting pressure on it, the onus is on you to get your facts straight first. Do you realise that many people reading this long thread might only have time to read the first few pages and will walk away with the completely eroneous impression that hospitals in Thailand are capable of turning away seriously injured people that have been brought to them in a pick-up truck, simply because they don't have an ID card on them.

[MP5]

I wrote it and then thought.

Edited May 27, 2007 by MP5

[Mobi]

Is he trying to say that the great BPH does not know how to follow this simple procedure ?

No, he's trawling the internet to justify his stance because I touched a raw nerve.

At the risk of boring you all to death.... here are a few reports at random that have recently been posted on this thread:

A couple of years ago, I was witness of an accident in which a motorcyclist was badly injured. We brought him to BPH and he was refused treatment unless we can cough up 10,000 Baht. The guy was actually lying in the emergency care area on a stretcher, bleeding from nose and ears.

I demanded to see a Manager as at that point I still thought it is the receptionist's misconception and not hospital policy, but they remained firm on demanding cash in advance.

After we all scratched the cash together (they have an ATM for your convenience...) the accident victim enjoyed a basic treatment and has been transferred with one of BPH's emergency vans to Memorial Hospital were he died the next morning.

I still remember very well the nurse carrying an EKG to the van with the cables dangling over the floor...

A friend of mine was admitted; symptoms of generally unwell with swollen lower limbs and water retension. After three days of tests, they told him he had luekemia and liver failure and would soon die, then discharged him witha bag of pills and a bill for several thousand baht.

Result: Following a second opinion at a local doctors surgery, he was told it was just a simple kidney fluid imbalance. Still fit and healthy five years later…..

My friend's wife was rushed in with severe abdominal pain. Was diagnosed as a ruptured ectopic pregnancy and needed emergency surgery to save her life. The doctor wanted to rush her in for the operation. The 'administrator' handling her case, demanded 50% of the fee up front. As she only had 5,000 on her this was a problem. The 'administrator' was walking out of the room having refused to give the go ahead for the operation. The doctor calls after her, 'Do you want to just let her die in front of me.' and then says to my friends wife that she was willing to pay the money for her, in order to get her in the operating theatre.

In the end she had the operation and was told that if it was delayed another hour or two she probably would have died. The doctor seemed genuinely concerned about her well-being but the administrator couldn't have cared less.

Now these reports are from 3 different people who have posted here. Are they lying? Are they exaggerating? Do they have a special agenda?

BarryZ you can trawl through the internet till the cows come home, and cut and paste medical reports on the transportation of blood and God knows what else, and you can accuse us of being a lynch mob, but nothing will alter the facts that have been written, and the sure knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.

You seem to be disturbed, so go in peace my friend.

[MP5]

OK

Sorry but the original correspondance relating to Matts tragic death was lie.

Edited May 27, 2007 by MP5

[Mobi]

OK

Sorry but the original correspondance relating to Matts tragic death was lie.

Yes it was Mobi!

This thread has long since moved on from that, and well you know it.

What was all that you were posting yesterday about resentment....?

Keep your cool...

and go in peace, my friend

[MP5]

No resentment Sir

I just copied your signature

Edited May 27, 2007 by MP5

[larvidchr]

To barryz.

There is no doubt whatsoever that this website and other means of pressure have forced BPH to make their statements, further more there is a good chance, that this pressure might help to keep BPH on their toes, and be more carefull in the future, it is in the best interest of us all that the medical care is as good as possible.

The posters here have brought pressure to bear on BPH, some of the posts might have been sligthly over the top or not 100% accurate, but they have still contributed to the pressure on BPH, you cant expect laymen to be correct about every little detail, but that is not the point either, in the grand scheme of things this have been to try to ensure better care for all.

As I have posted to another word warrior, you dont seem to grasb this, is it any skin of your nose if some posts are less than 100% accurate, as long as the intentions is right, the fact of the matter is that you are not helping the slightets little bit, in fact you are doing the quite reversal, nobody is interested in your theories, as you say they might be just as wrong / right as the other line of posts, why you post something like that, the same time you you protests what you percive as wrong therories by others is beyond me, two wrongs dont make a right barryz.

This is far to importent for everybody, to be made a playground for your whishes to argue non importent details, please try to understand that, i am sure BPH can do without you as their knight in shining armor, they are the ones in a position of strenght, not TV`s members.

You would do everybody a good turn if you took your fighting spirit to some more appropiate thread, and I am sure there would be some TV members to accomodate you there.

Have a very nice day.

Kind regards

No. It's no skin off my nose if posts are less than 100% accurate. But what if they are 100% wrong? That certainly does not but pressure on BPH to lift its game. In fact it can have the opposite effect. It certainly would with me. Wouldn't it with you?

Let's suppose you knew you had honestly done your best in a difficult situation, with the patient's best interests in mind, but things unavoidably went wrong and a bunch of people who kew nothing about the circumstances, or medical procedures in general, started attacking you for being incompetent and uncaring. How could you possibly lift your game? I suggest what would happen is you would become demoralised, would lose respect for your attackers and might even consider leaving the profession.

If you want BHP to lift its game by putting pressure on it, the onus is on you to get your facts straight first. Do you realise that many people reading this long thread might only have time to read the first few pages and will walk away with the completely eroneous impression that hospitals in Thailand are capable of turning away seriously injured people that have been brought to them in a pick-up truck, simply because they don't have an ID card on them.

Please read the posts here and others made on the subject, BPH are not in the clear, and you dont have to be a rocket scientist to transport blood according to the correct procedures, if transporting blood is to difficult, I does not look to good for more complicated hospital procedures like transplants aso.

You are using a poor excuse for keeping this going, you are not really concerned with nothing but your own game of argueing pointless details, I can see no other reason for you insisting on trying to sabotage the effort of a lot of people, unless ofcourse you are employed by BPH as a spin "doctor".

Claiming that all posts questioning the procedures at BPH is 100% wrong is proposterus, just as it would be to claim that your posts was 100% wrong.

What you do, serve no resonable purpose, compared to the greater goals of this thread, so I urge you to reconsider what I wrote to you before, drop your ego trip and try to think about other than your own narrow interests.

Kind regards.

[Barryz]

Is he trying to say that the great BPH does not know how to follow this simple procedure ?

No, he's trawling the internet to justify his stance because I touched a raw nerve.

At the risk of boring you all to death.... here are a few reports at random that have recently been posted on this thread:

A couple of years ago, I was witness of an accident in which a motorcyclist was badly injured. We brought him to BPH and he was refused treatment unless we can cough up 10,000 Baht. The guy was actually lying in the emergency care area on a stretcher, bleeding from nose and ears.

I demanded to see a Manager as at that point I still thought it is the receptionist's misconception and not hospital policy, but they remained firm on demanding cash in advance.

After we all scratched the cash together (they have an ATM for your convenience...) the accident victim enjoyed a basic treatment and has been transferred with one of BPH's emergency vans to Memorial Hospital were he died the next morning.

I still remember very well the nurse carrying an EKG to the van with the cables dangling over the floor...

A friend of mine was admitted; symptoms of generally unwell with swollen lower limbs and water retension. After three days of tests, they told him he had luekemia and liver failure and would soon die, then discharged him witha bag of pills and a bill for several thousand baht.

Result: Following a second opinion at a local doctors surgery, he was told it was just a simple kidney fluid imbalance. Still fit and healthy five years later…..

My friend's wife was rushed in with severe abdominal pain. Was diagnosed as a ruptured ectopic pregnancy and needed emergency surgery to save her life. The doctor wanted to rush her in for the operation. The 'administrator' handling her case, demanded 50% of the fee up front. As she only had 5,000 on her this was a problem. The 'administrator' was walking out of the room having refused to give the go ahead for the operation. The doctor calls after her, 'Do you want to just let her die in front of me.' and then says to my friends wife that she was willing to pay the money for her, in order to get her in the operating theatre.

In the end she had the operation and was told that if it was delayed another hour or two she probably would have died. The doctor seemed genuinely concerned about her well-being but the administrator couldn't have cared less.

Now these reports are from 3 different people who have posted here. Are they lying? Are they exaggerating? Do they have a special agenda?

BarryZ you can trawl through the internet till the cows come home, and cut and paste medical reports on the transportation of blood and God knows what else, and you can accuse us of being a lynch mob, but nothing will alter the facts that have been written, and the sure knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.

You seem to be disturbed, so go in peace my friend.

Mobi,

I simply don't know if these people are lying or exaggerating, but going by a previous post from Larvidchr, there could well be a special agenda they have; namely to embarras BHP as much as possible.

I don't need to justify my stance. I'm just trying to help you here. No situation is helped by spreading lies. If the above anecodotes really are true then it's a disgrace and I would be just as angry about them as I was when I first read that BPH had turned away a seriously injured person in a pick-up truck because he had no ID.

In fact, if I was a resident of Pattaya I wouldn't tolerate such behaviour. I'd get it fixed. There are plenty of newspapers around looking for good, sensational stories. Stories of hospitals turning away people who need life-saving emergency treatment would be dynamite, I would think. That's what newspapers are for, and considering that Thailand prides itself on its standard of hospital treatment in relation to other underdeveloped countries, because the King has had a lifelong interest in hospital care, I would think that nation-wide publicity would be the most effective remedy here.

But you have to get your facts straight first. Anecdotes often contain exaggeration to enhance the story, as well as downright lies. Newspapers have to be careful about libel.

By the way, I didn't have to trawl the net to find that article on transport of blood supplies. I just typed the subject in Google search and it was the 3rd or 4th URL on the first page. Nothing could have been easier.

Edited May 27, 2007 by Barryz

[ErikD]

Thank you Mobi, farangfool, larvidchr and others that seem to have grasped the seriousness and important issues surrounding the tragic death of Matt Hayes which is what started this whole thread.

Friends of Matt in their grief and due to lack of information at the time may have had some of the facts wrong at the beginning but the fact of the matter is Matt was removed from BHP in a critical condition and died on the way to another hospital.

BHP's statements regarding this incident and their reasons for moving Matt are a matter of public record and I do not see any need to defend them by inventing IMO ridiculous scenarios, speculating or making excuses for them; Matt died this is reason enough to suggest that they did something wrong in their treatment of him. There are a lot of unanswered questions surrounding this which have been raised in this forum and by friends and family of Matt and we should continue to press for answers and any mistakes made by BHP in this situation highlighted so that lessons can be learned and real improvements made.

Combined with all the other stories about the treatment and performance of this hospital and how they have reacted to the pressure brought to bear from Matt's case it seems to me that they do need to review their policies and procedures and until things have significantly improved we should continue with our protests, publicity and withdrawing our patronage of this hospital (it is making a difference which is clear by their reactions).

We should not be side tracked by people who seem unable or do not want to understand our motives for pursuing this tragic and disturbing death of a lovely and well respected young man who never had a bad word to say about anyone.

We are not a lynch mob or making things up to make BHP look bad; these events happened as confirmed by BHP own statements.

[Barryz]

One has to be very careful in situations where a person's family is grieving. Suggestions that the death is due to the negligence of a particular hospital can make the grieving situation worse and cause needless distress if such accusations later prove to be groundless.

[Mobi]

Hi Barry

Very briefly:

If the 3 posts I quoted all exaggerated, what about another 3 and another 3 and another 3? Are they all exaggerating - including yours truly? It does stretch the bounds of credulity that anyone who has a tragic tale to report is either exaggerating or lying.

I'm not sure, but I do believe there have been a few letters of complaint about BPH through the years in the local rags - and I'm afraid that's what they are - rags. By their own admittance they rely on their goodwill of local sponsors and advertisers and vested interests - and guess who is right up there at the top of their sponsor list? Got it in one

If you think I am a member of a lynch mob, out for blood, then fair enough - I can see where you're coming from. But I can tell you that quite a number of the expat community in Pattya are seriously planning on what to do and where to go in the event of a medical emergency, so concerned are they of the treatment they, and their loved ones, might receive at BPH. Many of these people do not even read Thai Visa, but they have had their own unfortunate experiences. We are talking Sattahip or Sri Racha - a much longer journey, but at least assured of good care when we arrive.

As you seem to enjoy the last word, I'll leave it there, for now.

Go in peace

Eric, thank you for your kind words, and I pray we eventually get to the bottom of this tragic affair.

[larvidchr]

Eric, thank you for your kind words, and I pray we eventually get to the bottom of this tragic affair.

Ditto.

[onzestan]

One has to be very careful in situations where a person's family is grieving. Suggestions that the death is due to the negligence of a particular hospital can make the grieving situation worse and cause needless distress if such accusations later prove to be groundless.

Most of what I wanted to reply to your posts has been said by other members, I only wish to add that this hospital has deserved its bad reputation among the local expats. I myself will never set foot in this commercial enterprise again, for very good reasons.

Let it go, your rowing against the tide.

regards

onzestan

[Barryz]

One has to be very careful in situations where a person's family is grieving. Suggestions that the death is due to the negligence of a particular hospital can make the grieving situation worse and cause needless distress if such accusations later prove to be groundless.

Most of what I wanted to reply to your posts has been said by other members, I only wish to add that this hospital has deserved its bad reputation among the local expats. I myself will never set foot in this commercial enterprise again, for very good reasons.

Let it go, your rowing against the tide.

regards

onzestan

It's not my problem. I don't live in Pattaya, but if I did and got sick I would certainly want to be treated at the hospital I could trust most, the hospital with the most competent and well trained staff, and the hospital with the most up-to-date equipment.

As I mentioned before, I don't have much faith in hospital treatment in general, and that's from a Western perspective in developed countries like the UK, and Australia which sometimes boasts having the best health care system in the world.

The situation appears to be, if it's a private hospital where money provides a more ideal ratio between the number of patients and carers, better equipment and more luxurious accommodation, then you have to have nasty administrators who's job it is to ensure as far as possible the hospital gets paid for its services.

If it's a public hospital that provides free or low cost treatment, then resources are very likely to be overstretched and staff overworked. There simply isn't enough money to go round. At least one person in this thread has commented that the Chonburi hospital is a dump.

You pays your money and you takes your pick!

The reason I got involved in this thread is because, after initially being apalled that any hospital would turn away a seriously injured person and allow him to be transported for 45 minutes on the back of a pick-up truck to another hospital, it began to emerge that this was in fact a totally false accusation.

I get angry when people misrepresent the facts. There's enough confusion in the world already.

[EmCross]

Well said Onzestan,

Barryz if it is "not your problem" why don't you butt out of this thread?

Their are a lot of people in Pattaya who feel very strongly about this subject and regardless of some of the initial information being incorrect regarding Matt Hayes's treatment and subsequent death the BHP do have a case to answer in this instance and many others over a long period of time.

[Artisan]

Most of what I wanted to reply to your posts has been said by other members, I only wish to add that this hospital has deserved its bad reputation among the local expats. I myself will never set foot in this commercial enterprise again, for very good reasons.

Let it go, your rowing against the tide.

As someone else has said, this topic has moved on from the tragic, and possibly preventable, death of Matt Hayes. I will endorse the comments from Onzestan. This "hospital" deserves its dreadful reputation. Please bear with me whilst I re-post a personal experience relating to the treatment of my wife at this hospital.

My wife was admitted to this hospital in April 2003 because her blood potassium level was very low. She was in hospital for one night only; her admission to allow continuous assessment and further testing of her blood. Her blood sample was sent to Bangkok for analysis and the result, which would take up to two weeks to be available, would be the key to identifying her illness. Prior to being discharged, she was presented with a bill for 35,000 baht!! Included in this cost was a sum of 11,600 baht for a list of drugs and medical supplies and 14,400 baht for the laboratory tests.

We returned two weeks later for the results of this critical blood test to be told, by the receptionist, that the doctor had left the employment of the hospital! We waited for a further hour whilst my wife’s medical notes were retrieved before we were able to see another doctor at the same hospital.

This consultation turned out to be a lengthy nightmare, although this was NOT the fault of the second doctor. She confessed to be very confused by the sketchy medical notes that had been compiled by the first doctor. My wife and I were told that the results of the expensive and critical blood test were meaningless, as the first doctor had authorised the test whilst knowing that my wife’s blood potassium content was abnormally low and her blood pressure very high. A repeat sample and test were needed when my wife’s blood potassium content and blood pressure were at normal levels for the result to have some meaning.

“Who will pay for this re-testing?” was my immediate question. I felt that, as the first doctor had been made a professional error, then the second test should be done at no cost to us.

“Not possible to do it for free” was the answer from the second doctor. Naturally, I was at a loss as to understand why not, as the first doctor had been negligent.

I mentioned the shopping list of drugs. After considering the list, she said that a particular combination of drugs on the list could have been dangerous to my wife! I asked if she would put that in writing but she declined to do so. Later, without any inducement, she brought up the point again saying that this same combination of drugs could have increased the potassium content of my wife’s blood to above the danger level, causing my wife’s heart to stop! Also, she commented that the balance of the dosage was incorrect as some drugs had been prescribed for twenty days and others for ten days.

The re-testing turned out to be worthless too because the laboratory did not take sufficient care in the storage and handling of the blood samples.

She agreed to give me a full written medical report covering all of the indications and assessments that had been done by the hospital and the director of the hospital agreed that our costs be refunded in full, with the condition that we didn't pursue any litigation.

Her response to the cost of the drugs was that the hospital exploited elevated drug pricing so as to maintain a return on its investment. Actually, I’d heard that before from another local hospital, but that’s another story!

In June of 2003, my wife was admitted to the Siriraj Medical School in Bangkok to have a tumour on her right kidney removed and she has been well since then.

So much for Bangkok Hospital Pattaya.

Edited May 28, 2007 by Artisan

[thebounder]

Is there anyone who can substantiate BPH's version of events, as to the treatment they gave to the victim and their method of transporting him to Chonburi? Cos previous experience suggests to me that, unless they thought he could pay, they would have been unlikely to do much at all. If his wellbeing was their prime concern, I find it hard to believe they would have sent him to the Chonburi hospital. When I went there to visit, admittedly a few years ago, I left wondering how much worse the field hospitals of the Crimean War could have been. To say that it was basic would be an extreme understatement. The wards were not air-conditioned, which did not help the smell and the beds were old and rusted. Minimal treatment was given to the patients.

Are BPH saying in their statement that they did everything they could for this man? If that is right, then a similar victim who they knew to be fully insured would surely also be sent to Chonburi in the same circumstances. If that is indeed what they are saying, namely that Chonburi was the best possible place for him, then it is absolute rubbish. Chonburi is the place they send patients who don't have the money to pay for their expensive charges.

A few years ago a friend of my wife was involved in a motorcycle accident and was taken to BPH by the SB "volunteers". He had serious head injuries and was in terrible pain. When we arrived, more than an hour after the accident, he was laying untreated on a bed in the A&E department. He is Thai and poor. They hadn't even given him inexpensive pain medication to make him somewhat more comfortable. Upon seeing me, they asked if I would pay for "emergency treatment". Of course I said I would and only then, after my meeting with the administrator, did they begin the treatment that by definition should have been started 90 minutes earlier. That treatment included a brain scan which revealed his brain was swollen and bleeding, as they had suspected.

Therefore, in that case, they had refused to administer "emergency treatment" because they thought the victim would be unable to pay for it. They then advised that we take him to Chonburi hospital. We asked about an ambulance and was told I had to pay for that too, which I did. When we went to visit him a couple of days later, I felt guilty for having sent him there, even though he wasn't my responsibility. The fact that he eventually pulled through had nothing to do with treatment at Chonburi, cos he wasn't given any. The very expensive operation that BPH said he needed to address the bleeding in the brain (and that they said would be carried out at Chonburi) was never done. They just let him lay there in the oppressive heat, presumably until he either recovered or died.

[suiging]

Most of the longer term residents have had at some time treatment at BPH. Three members of my family have and the care they received was up to a very professional standard. However, ability to pay was never an issue and the bill had to be challanged on every occasion. Unless I had personally intervened at the bedside, an unecessary at that time ( Doctors own words when challenged) operation which may well have led to death was pushed as a must on to my eighty year old father to OK for my critical Mother.

Posters on this thread have appeared out of the blue in defence of BPH, some even having the nerve to challenge the honesty of some very respected members. Who these people really work for is a thread in itself. However, the appearance of them on TV adds in my mind, to the sinister undercurrent that surrounds this hospital.

Many of the hard working frontline staff are a credit to the country. The behind the scene beancounters are a disgrace.

Edited May 28, 2007 by suiging