The Constitutional Tribunal Disbands Thai Rak Thai - Election cheating

[Aujuba]

The TRT leaders may try to work through the courts for something but they are against violence. I'd guess that the people on the street are the same losers who used violence when Thaksin was in power. TRT probably will form a new party of some sort and move on. The people from the lower ranks of TRT should be secretly happy that now they have a chance to run in their areas.

No matter what happens all Thai people need to care about corruption. Corruption has caused these problems for Thailand. Corruption must be fought.

In Japan they had two senior officials kill themselves after they got caught doing something corrupt. In China the government wants to execute the head of the ministry which controls drugs for corruption in office. Vietnam executes corrupt officials if I remember correctly. Corruption is the plague of Asia. It feeds the veins of the evil here. It drains the hope of the weak. It's gotta go.

[ColPyat]

TRT voters are always described, depending on mood of the attacker, as stupid, thugs, corrupt, and whatever. The mass of their voters were people who actually did benefit from the policies, and who have not benefited much from any other government - just normal people.

Colpyat, I do get tired of hearing that the poor people upcountry only benefited from Thaksin's government. Actually, they have benefited from all democratic governments. They benefited by selling their votes to the highest bidder. Thaksin came along and institutionalized benefits so that money was directed upcountry by populist policies instead of cash in the backs of pick up trucks.

If those upcountry want to benefit from future governments, they need to unify themselves into a uniform, coherent voting block. Their goal needs to be to put up candidates that support their needs and rally around these people voting for them and their party, and I am not talking about some rich guy from Chiang Mai. Marching on Bangkok complaining about the military coup doesn't provide any benefits for their future. Unifying into a strong voting block does. However, if political parties are still able to get votes upcountry by paying THB 100 (or less), then the people selling their votes only have themselves to blame.

Well, and i get tired of hearing these simplifications of how vote buying directly affected the outcome of elections solely because of handing over money. Things are a lot more complex upcountry than this patronizing argumentation suggests. This completely underestimates the complex network of canvassers and how they are attached to different candidates, how villages and villagers are connected to this patron/client system, and how this regardless of party politics is in fact the only way how those villagers do benefit from the state. Nothing that Thaksin has introduced, and nothing that will disappear with Thaksin. Every party that wants to come to power has to use this system, be it directly, or through support of coalition partners that embody this system.

Thaksin "redirecting" budgets. Well, good, at least some money went up there. And not just money. Thaksin would not have came up in the first place if previous governments would not have relied on this system unquestioning and even worse in some cases, such as whole provinces given over to coalition partners and not interfered in by the Democrats in particular.

No political party here can come to power without that system, that is a sad fact of Thailand. And that won't change by a nice face making promises and doing nothing, as was usus previously.

The people upcountry forming a strong voting block? How on earth do you imagine that?

Go back in history, and have a look what happened to all slightly progressive political parties, and the tactics of the state to bring the rural areas into the strong hierarchal unpolitical position of unquestioning supporting the status quo? Village scouts and other volunteer organisations, militias? Read Bowie's "Rituals of National Loyalty"? Do you think this strategy is over? Nops - it is not, it only adapted to more modern times, the basics of it being unchanged - Loyalty to the state, no pluralism allowed.

Like it or not, even with all its many faults - TRT came as close to a unified voting block of the rural areas as it ever was in Thailand. Do you have any practical suggestion on alternatives? As long as the Democrats do have no policies there is only the canvasser system.

The question here is about feasible alternatives, and not what if scenarios and wishful thinking, and the easy attachment of blame to the villagers. Name me an alternative, please. Democrats? They had their chances, and have chosen to do nothing other than upholding the status quo. Why did the Democrats not introduce a national health system? Why did the Democrats do nothing about the increasing drug problem, so that in the end a massacre happened, that was supported by the majority of the population and initiated by almost all quarters of power in this country?

TRT rule was not what i consider democratic, but it could have been a stepping stone to a people's democracy a few years down the line. Thanks to the knee jerk reactions of the military, the old elites, and the new middle classes it became a stepping stone back to the past of military domination of the Thai political landscape.

Did you notice the re-establishment of a extremely powerful ISOC beyond future parliamentary scrutiny, and other relics of the past? Do you prefer this system now?

[jdinasia]

TRT rule was not what i consider democratic,

First sensible thing you've said .....

You held high hopes <that I would describe as pipe-dreams> about the futures of democracy in Thailand leaving Thaksin in place .....

Many of us didn't and instead saw a complete end to any chance of real democracy growing if he had stayed.

Are you right? Are we? --- not a provable point ... but I of course think I was right and you were not!

[vermin on arrival]

Hey, just thought I’d give my 2(or maybe more) cents worth. I hope people aren’t annoyed by my rehashing of so many of the events of the past 7 years in my post.

I’m surprised to hear all of the support for Thai Rak Thai and Thaksin. It seems very clear that he was undemocratic and corrupt on a vast scale, and a huge human rights violator. I’m pleased with this verdict.

Since day one he should never have been allowed to hold office. In 2001, he clearly violated the rules of the Assets Examination Committee. The only reason he was able to hold office was that a number of the members abrogated their duty as one of the checks and balances of democracy and abstained from voting out of a misguided desire to not go against the results of the election when their votes would have ruled him out of holding office.

Thaksin consistently said that he had no respect for democracy and was in favor of a more dictatorial style of rule, with his CEO style of management. He clearly wanted to set himself up as the head of a parliamentary dictatorship like his friends, the Lees, ran in Singapore. He only held himself of as a the light of democracy in Thailand when it was clear that the middle class and political elite had turned against him with his massively corrupt and self interested governance of the country. If things are to be believed, the military only struck first the day before TRT supporters were to attack a massive PAD rally, which Thaksin would use as a pretext for passing an emergency decree. It seemed as if that was eventually the plan with the treatment earlier protestors got from hired security; imagine kicking a 70 year old man in the head in front of Siam Paragon (or was it world trade)

While he was within his rights to call the snap elections, the reason for doing so, to avoid the debate of his hugely corrupt sale of Shin telecom to Temasak, was completely unacceptable. Yes, he wanted to show that he had a mandate to run the country. However, the fact that a huge proportion of the rural poor were willing to accept what he was doing does not make it appropriate or acceptable for a head of state. In my view, the Democrats rightfully boycotted the election. Thaksin went ahead with the election anyway to try and create a one party rubber stamp parliament, hardly the decision of a democratic party or champion of democracy.

Some have said that all politicians are corrupt in Thailand, which is essentially true. However, the corruption under Thaksin was on an unheard of scale and was correctly dubbed industrial corruption due to its huge scale. Imagine-a 2 billion dollar tax free sale of his company, this from a person whose administration had been squeezing the tax baht out of all of his opponents and the middle class. He had said that anyone who uses an offshore company was unpatriotic and then went ahead, and did the same thing to get cash on a huge scale with his sale of Shin. The middle class and Bangkok elite were rightfully outraged.

The charges of electoral fraud against him and the TRT leadership were clearly valid in the case which was used to bar the party. Even before the coup, the Supreme Court’s decision against the electoral commission of electoral malfeasance on this same issue made it clear that if TRT was eventually charged with it, they would be found guilty. It was simply a matter of time if Thaksin lost power.

Some have said how well run the country was under Thaksin, but I didn’t see that. The human rights abuses under his rule were rampant. Maybe if you were one of the many innocents killed during the war on drugs, you would feel otherwise. The figure during the war on drugs is actually closer to 7-8,000. Two to three thousand were killed in the first phase, and then there were another 5,000 in the second phase, which Thaksin managed to keep out the press, a shocking instance of censorship, an example of which has not even happened under the leadership of this junta(censorship yes, but to hide an action on this scale-I don’t think so). This only recently came to light with the end of Thaksin’s rule.

Thaksin seems to be the one primarily responsible for the unrest in the South. He was the one who declared that there was no terrorism in the South and dissolved the special administrative region which the army had used to keep the region calm; all because he wanted to promote tourism in Thailand. Then when there was the robbery of an arsenal, he gave the military one week to find the people responsible. He gave the military carte blanche to run around and torture just as he had given the police carte blanche to kill in the war on drugs, a carte blanche which was exacerbated by his deadlines for certain numbers of drug dealers to be “eliminated” within a certain time period, guaranteeing that people who were not drug dealers would be snuffed. He or one of his cronies had the one lawyer who would represent any of these people kidnapped and murdered. His ham handedness fueled the fire of Islamic extremist hatred in the South and made the unrest grow and grow.

His conflict of interest and abuse of power were clearly evident in how he pumped up the value of his company and knocked down all of his competitors. Does anyone remember how Orange was treated? Is it any surprise that he was one of the biggest tax evaders in Thai History? Do people remember how, at the start of his first term, the main state’s witnesses in the tax evasion case against Shin Telecom, the accountant whistleblower, was murdered and the police gave every possible reason for his murder except his involvement in the case? The case was quickly dropped and disappeared from the papers. It has since been reopened. Certainly he manipulated the law to make sure that he obeyed all of the legal technicalities, but this conflict of interest should never be allowed in any responsible governance of a democratic country.

It really feels as if Thaksin and all of his accomplices in the TRT leadership have finally gotten their comeuppance. It is important that no elected official is seen to be above the law. In the US Richard Nixon was hugely popular, and won one of the biggest landslide victories in US history against McGovern, but he was still held accountable for his illegal activities. Certainly the Republican Party wasn’t banned, but the dissolution of the party and the banning of the execs from political activity is the penalty under Thai law. The 14 or however many million who voted for TRT can still participate in the next elections as can the rest of the TRT party hierarchy, in whatever new party/parties they organize.

It is shame that the rural poor are once again left out in the cold. Let’s hope that in the future the person who champions their legitimate needs is not a self-serving demagogue, but someone of real integrity. Interestingly enough, for all the things Thaksin gave them, he did not try to educate them. Under his leadership, the deadline for universal secondary education came and went with nary an attempt to bring it into being. It seemed that he would only give them things which would make them beholden to them and nothing that would truly empower them(remember his campaign tour for his second term when he told people that those provinces which voted against him would be the last to receive any state aid). Maybe if they were educated they could see through his web of deceit, something Thaksin would not have accepted. I believe that in the long run the enormous debt he was giving them would hurt them as well although maybe many of them could not afford the luxury of such long term thinking. Let hope that the Democrats and the elite of Thailand see this as a wake up call and try to do something to help them.

I supported the coup as a necessary evil to remove this blight on the Thai political landscape. Some think that it would have eventually been corrected by the electoral process, but I don’t agree. He was intending to fully ensconce himself in power and change all the laws along the way so it would all be legal just as he had been doing all along.

However, I do not support the way the CNS is running the country. I’m really not sure which is worse, and clearly hope that some of the elements of the new constitution are retracted. This decision to make the TRT leadership accountable seems to be a step in the right direction for a better future for Thailand. Corruption and electoral fraud ruin democracies.

I do admit that my knowledge of pre-1998 Thai democratic politics is weak since I did not arrive in the LOS until then and didn’t really start to take notice until around 2000.

[Plus]

TRT rule was not what i consider democratic, but it could have been a stepping stone to a people's democracy a few years down the line.

I bet that was what Russians thought when bolsheviks first came to power. Few years down the line dictatorship by the proletariat will end and every one will live happily ever after in a democracy the communists initially promised.

The comparison is valid - both parties relied on underclasses as their political base, both parties run socialist programs, both parties didn't tolerate any dissent, both parties resorted to extreme violence to achieve their political goals, and both parties pitched their voters against the "elites".

TRT's populist platform was written by former Communist Party of Thailand comrades.

[Aujuba]

A lot of foreigners don't care about corruption or democracy. For example, the US accepts 'dictatorships' in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan but when it comes down to it the US must believe it is better to have a corrupt leader you like in office than someone who might not do the right thing for the US. So the message from some foreigners is Democracy and Corruption are overrated problems.

[Jai Dee]

Finance Ministry Spokesman is positive of Thai economy after verdict on party dissolution case

The Spokesman of the Ministry of Finance, Mr. Somchai Sujjapongse, says the Constitutional Tribunal’s verdict on the five political parties’ dissolution case is another historical event of Thailand and will benefit the national economy.

Following the verdict, Mr. Somchai says the general election is very like to happen and it will help boost the confidence of Thai and foreign investors. Furthermore, consumers will be more confident in buying products and business operators would feel more secured in expanding their businesses.

Previously, the Bank of Thailand has reduced the short-term interest rates by 0.5 percent, and there is a high possibility that other commercial banks will reduce the interest rates as well. Mr. Somchai believes that the interest rates can be an important mechanism to stimulate people’s consumption and investment.

The Ministry of Finance will evaluate the economic figures again this August. Initially, the ministry forecasts that the Thai economy will grow by four percent this year.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 01 June 2007

[Jai Dee]

Taxi motorcycles, tricycles and taxi drivers to protest against disbanding TRT

A group of taxi motorcycles, tricycles and taxi drivers will in the afternoon gather at the Royal Plaza to protest against the Constitutional Tribunal's ruling on Thai Rak Thai party.

A TRT office staff told reporters that it is expected that some 300 people will attend the protest.

Source: The Nation - 01 June 2007

[Jai Dee]

Mixed acceptance of Constitution Tribunal decision: Poll

Most people supported the Constitution Tribunal's ruling on Wednesday on the political party dissolution, according to a poll by the Rajabhat University or Suan Dusit Poll.

The survey was conducted by seeking the opinions of 1,092 people nationwide regarding the political party dissolution case.

Of this, 267 people favoured the former ruling Thai Rak Thai Party, 273 support the former opposition Democrat Party, 159 back other parties while 393 do not like any party.

The poll showed, 41.5 per cent of the people surveyed agreed with the tribunal's acquittal of the Democrat Party of electoral law violations because they viewed the evidence as not being clear enough.

However, 33 per cent disagreed, reasoning that the tribunal should give penalties to both parties. It was unfair for punishing only one party. At the same time, 25.5 per cent said they were indifferent to the ruling.

Asked whether they agreed with the tribunal's decision to disband the Thai Rak Thai party, 46 per cent backed it, reasoning that there was clear evidence in terms of documents and individual witnesses.

Still, nearly one-third -- 31.7 per cent -- disagreed with the ruling, saying the tribunal should investigate and punish individuals found guilty of electoral fraud charges while 22 per cent stated they were indifferent.

In addition, 37 per cent believed the Thai politics would remain unchanged following the ruling, while one third -- 33.35 per cent -- said it would improve, and 29 per cent stated it would worsen.

Source: TNA - 01 June 2007

[hammered]

TRT rule was not what i consider democratic, but it could have been a stepping stone to a people's democracy a few years down the line.

I bet that was what Russians thought when bolsheviks first came to power. Few years down the line dictatorship by the proletariat will end and every one will live happily ever after in a democracy the communists initially promised.

The comparison is valid - both parties relied on underclasses as their political base, both parties run socialist programs, both parties didn't tolerate any dissent, both parties resorted to extreme violence to achieve their political goals, and both parties pitched their voters against the "elites".

TRT's populist platform was written by former Communist Party of Thailand comrades.

Hi Plus. Im not sure you could really call TRT communist. They did pursue neo-liberal policies praised by the economist in the international sphere and ones that to some extent were detrimental to the poor. Their populist polices were more like social democratic ones to be honest. I doubt that Mr. T or even hios ex CPT Thakisnista wanted arevolution as that would have been the end of them! A lot of the TRT fornmer CPT were seen as sell outs by their forme colleagues. TRT was more a capitalist party that included a few handouts to maintain electoral popularity, and the ex-CPT members more capitalist than communist now. Would Samak and the economist have been such supporters if the ideolgy was really commie or comie insppired?

[Jimjim]

Most would be a majority I would think. There was nothing over 50% so I think the writer of the previous article used the word losely.

Thaksin was no different than many leaders, he was trying to consolidate power and silence critics through censorship.

The future for democracy in Thailand will be a slow road.

[ColPyat]

TRT rule was not what i consider democratic, but it could have been a stepping stone to a people's democracy a few years down the line.

I bet that was what Russians thought when bolsheviks first came to power. Few years down the line dictatorship by the proletariat will end and every one will live happily ever after in a democracy the communists initially promised.

The comparison is valid - both parties relied on underclasses as their political base, both parties run socialist programs, both parties didn't tolerate any dissent, both parties resorted to extreme violence to achieve their political goals, and both parties pitched their voters against the "elites".

TRT's populist platform was written by former Communist Party of Thailand comrades.

I am gob smacked.

Truly at a loss for words with such a ridiculously faulty comparison.

I will go now, the discussion has now moved into the absurdly surreal again.

Thanks for the comic relief.

[mumbu]

Thailand Extends Security Crackdown in Bangkok Until June 9

By Anuchit Nguyen

June 1 (Bloomberg) -- Thailand extended a security crackdown in the capital, Bangkok, to next week amid protests against the junta and a court ruling that disbanded former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's Thai Rak Thai party.

Police and soldiers will continue to establish checkpoints throughout Bangkok until June 9, when protesters plan a ``major rally'' against the government and army leaders, Sansern Kaewkamnerd, spokesman for the junta, said today. The government had planned to relax security after this weekend, he added.

A military appointed court on May 30 banned Shinawatra and several ministers in his administration from politics for violation of election laws. Thai Rak Thai was the country's most popular political party with about 14 million registered members.

``The situation is still at a worrisome stage with more protests called,'' said Sansern. ``The expansion of the security plan will give police and soldiers some authority to maintain order.''

Thousands of protesters rallied yesterday without any violence, said Sansern. At least 10,000 soldiers and police are still on standby to maintain order and security in Bangkok, he added.

Jakrapob Penkair, who organized the rally yesterday, could not be reached on his mobile phone for comment.

To contact the reporters on this story: Anuchit Nguyen in Bangkok at [email protected]

[mumbu]

TRT rule was not what i consider democratic, but it could have been a stepping stone to a people's democracy a few years down the line.

I bet that was what Russians thought when bolsheviks first came to power. Few years down the line dictatorship by the proletariat will end and every one will live happily ever after in a democracy the communists initially promised.

The comparison is valid - both parties relied on underclasses as their political base, both parties run socialist programs, both parties didn't tolerate any dissent, both parties resorted to extreme violence to achieve their political goals, and both parties pitched their voters against the "elites".

TRT's populist platform was written by former Communist Party of Thailand comrades.

I am gob smacked.

Truly at a loss for words with such a ridiculously faulty comparison.

I will go now, the discussion has now moved into the absurdly surreal again.

Thanks for the comic relief.

I have to completely agree with you, Colpyat. It is hardly can be more nonsensical then to call khun Thaksin communist or socialist. Well, I would be very interested to know why so many expats hate Thaksin so much.

I know, I know: early bar closings... but what else?

[hammered]

Thailand Extends Security Crackdown in Bangkok Until June 9

By Anuchit Nguyen

June 1 (Bloomberg) -- Thailand extended a security crackdown in the capital, Bangkok, to next week amid protests against the junta and a court ruling that disbanded former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's Thai Rak Thai party.

Police and soldiers will continue to establish checkpoints throughout Bangkok until June 9, when protesters plan a ``major rally'' against the government and army leaders, Sansern Kaewkamnerd, spokesman for the junta, said today. The government had planned to relax security after this weekend, he added.

A military appointed court on May 30 banned Shinawatra and several ministers in his administration from politics for violation of election laws. Thai Rak Thai was the country's most popular political party with about 14 million registered members.

``The situation is still at a worrisome stage with more protests called,'' said Sansern. ``The expansion of the security plan will give police and soldiers some authority to maintain order.''

Thousands of protesters rallied yesterday without any violence, said Sansern. At least 10,000 soldiers and police are still on standby to maintain order and security in Bangkok, he added.

Jakrapob Penkair, who organized the rally yesterday, could not be reached on his mobile phone for comment.

To contact the reporters on this story: Anuchit Nguyen in Bangkok at [email protected]

Politics. The pro-Thaksin demonstrators are being blamed for the extension of security that they wanted to lift. An attempt to turn more people against the PTV boys.

[mumbu]

Hey, just thought I'd give my 2(or maybe more) cents worth. I hope people aren't annoyed by my rehashing of so many of the events of the past 7 years in my post.

I'm surprised to hear all of the support for Thai Rak Thai and Thaksin. It seems very clear that he was undemocratic and corrupt on a vast scale, and a huge human rights violator. I'm pleased with this verdict.

Since day one he should never have been allowed to hold office. In 2001, he clearly violated the rules of the Assets Examination Committee. The only reason he was able to hold office was that a number of the members abrogated their duty as one of the checks and balances of democracy and abstained from voting out of a misguided desire to not go against the results of the election when their votes would have ruled him out of holding office.

Thaksin consistently said that he had no respect for democracy and was in favor of a more dictatorial style of rule, with his CEO style of management. He clearly wanted to set himself up as the head of a parliamentary dictatorship like his friends, the Lees, ran in Singapore. He only held himself of as a the light of democracy in Thailand when it was clear that the middle class and political elite had turned against him with his massively corrupt and self interested governance of the country. If things are to be believed, the military only struck first the day before TRT supporters were to attack a massive PAD rally, which Thaksin would use as a pretext for passing an emergency decree. It seemed as if that was eventually the plan with the treatment earlier protestors got from hired security; imagine kicking a 70 year old man in the head in front of Siam Paragon (or was it world trade)

While he was within his rights to call the snap elections, the reason for doing so, to avoid the debate of his hugely corrupt sale of Shin telecom to Temasak, was completely unacceptable. Yes, he wanted to show that he had a mandate to run the country. However, the fact that a huge proportion of the rural poor were willing to accept what he was doing does not make it appropriate or acceptable for a head of state. In my view, the Democrats rightfully boycotted the election. Thaksin went ahead with the election anyway to try and create a one party rubber stamp parliament, hardly the decision of a democratic party or champion of democracy.

Some have said that all politicians are corrupt in Thailand, which is essentially true. However, the corruption under Thaksin was on an unheard of scale and was correctly dubbed industrial corruption due to its huge scale. Imagine-a 2 billion dollar tax free sale of his company, this from a person whose administration had been squeezing the tax baht out of all of his opponents and the middle class. He had said that anyone who uses an offshore company was unpatriotic and then went ahead, and did the same thing to get cash on a huge scale with his sale of Shin. The middle class and Bangkok elite were rightfully outraged.

The charges of electoral fraud against him and the TRT leadership were clearly valid in the case which was used to bar the party. Even before the coup, the Supreme Court's decision against the electoral commission of electoral malfeasance on this same issue made it clear that if TRT was eventually charged with it, they would be found guilty. It was simply a matter of time if Thaksin lost power.

Some have said how well run the country was under Thaksin, but I didn't see that. The human rights abuses under his rule were rampant. Maybe if you were one of the many innocents killed during the war on drugs, you would feel otherwise. The figure during the war on drugs is actually closer to 7-8,000. Two to three thousand were killed in the first phase, and then there were another 5,000 in the second phase, which Thaksin managed to keep out the press, a shocking instance of censorship, an example of which has not even happened under the leadership of this junta(censorship yes, but to hide an action on this scale-I don't think so). This only recently came to light with the end of Thaksin's rule.

Thaksin seems to be the one primarily responsible for the unrest in the South. He was the one who declared that there was no terrorism in the South and dissolved the special administrative region which the army had used to keep the region calm; all because he wanted to promote tourism in Thailand. Then when there was the robbery of an arsenal, he gave the military one week to find the people responsible. He gave the military carte blanche to run around and torture just as he had given the police carte blanche to kill in the war on drugs, a carte blanche which was exacerbated by his deadlines for certain numbers of drug dealers to be "eliminated" within a certain time period, guaranteeing that people who were not drug dealers would be snuffed. He or one of his cronies had the one lawyer who would represent any of these people kidnapped and murdered. His ham handedness fueled the fire of Islamic extremist hatred in the South and made the unrest grow and grow.

His conflict of interest and abuse of power were clearly evident in how he pumped up the value of his company and knocked down all of his competitors. Does anyone remember how Orange was treated? Is it any surprise that he was one of the biggest tax evaders in Thai History? Do people remember how, at the start of his first term, the main state's witnesses in the tax evasion case against Shin Telecom, the accountant whistleblower, was murdered and the police gave every possible reason for his murder except his involvement in the case? The case was quickly dropped and disappeared from the papers. It has since been reopened. Certainly he manipulated the law to make sure that he obeyed all of the legal technicalities, but this conflict of interest should never be allowed in any responsible governance of a democratic country.

It really feels as if Thaksin and all of his accomplices in the TRT leadership have finally gotten their comeuppance. It is important that no elected official is seen to be above the law. In the US Richard Nixon was hugely popular, and won one of the biggest landslide victories in US history against McGovern, but he was still held accountable for his illegal activities. Certainly the Republican Party wasn't banned, but the dissolution of the party and the banning of the execs from political activity is the penalty under Thai law. The 14 or however many million who voted for TRT can still participate in the next elections as can the rest of the TRT party hierarchy, in whatever new party/parties they organize.

It is shame that the rural poor are once again left out in the cold. Let's hope that in the future the person who champions their legitimate needs is not a self-serving demagogue, but someone of real integrity. Interestingly enough, for all the things Thaksin gave them, he did not try to educate them. Under his leadership, the deadline for universal secondary education came and went with nary an attempt to bring it into being. It seemed that he would only give them things which would make them beholden to them and nothing that would truly empower them(remember his campaign tour for his second term when he told people that those provinces which voted against him would be the last to receive any state aid). Maybe if they were educated they could see through his web of deceit, something Thaksin would not have accepted. I believe that in the long run the enormous debt he was giving them would hurt them as well although maybe many of them could not afford the luxury of such long term thinking. Let hope that the Democrats and the elite of Thailand see this as a wake up call and try to do something to help them.

I supported the coup as a necessary evil to remove this blight on the Thai political landscape. Some think that it would have eventually been corrected by the electoral process, but I don't agree. He was intending to fully ensconce himself in power and change all the laws along the way so it would all be legal just as he had been doing all along.

However, I do not support the way the CNS is running the country. I'm really not sure which is worse, and clearly hope that some of the elements of the new constitution are retracted. This decision to make the TRT leadership accountable seems to be a step in the right direction for a better future for Thailand. Corruption and electoral fraud ruin democracies.

I do admit that my knowledge of pre-1998 Thai democratic politics is weak since I did not arrive in the LOS until then and didn't really start to take notice until around 2000.

The problem with posts like yours is that you throw so many things simultaneously that it may impress everyone who has no idea what you

are talking about.

But closer inspection reveals only a bunch of unsubstantiated statements.

I am frankly sick and tired of posts like that and will not analyse it in full detail.

But:

1. The sell of Shin Corp to Temasek was perfectly legal. I have to admit that I am not expert on that but I did discuss it with a number of experts and they assured me that apart of minor technicalities the deal is perfectly legal.

2. To say that Thaksin is responsible for the violence in the South is a total absurd. While you are correctly indicate that he (more precisely Purachai as an interior minister at the time) made initially some mistakes,

he proved to be a fast learner. The statement is completely nonsensical.

In one of my posts above in this thread you may learn about the role of general Sonthi in the situation in the South.

Just because of the post like yours (which summarily execute Thaksin without giving any proof of guilt), I consider the participation in the discussions with certain number of members as a complete waist of time.

Edited June 1, 2007 by mumbu

[Tony Clifton]

TRT rule was not what i consider democratic, but it could have been a stepping stone to a people's democracy a few years down the line.

I bet that was what Russians thought when bolsheviks first came to power. Few years down the line dictatorship by the proletariat will end and every one will live happily ever after in a democracy the communists initially promised.

The comparison is valid - both parties relied on underclasses as their political base, both parties run socialist programs, both parties didn't tolerate any dissent, both parties resorted to extreme violence to achieve their political goals, and both parties pitched their voters against the "elites".

TRT's populist platform was written by former Communist Party of Thailand comrades.

I am gob smacked.

Truly at a loss for words with such a ridiculously faulty comparison.

I will go now, the discussion has now moved into the absurdly surreal again.

Thanks for the comic relief.

I have to completely agree with you, Colpyat. It is hardly can be more nonsensical then to call khun Thaksin communist or socialist. Well, I would be very interested to know why so many expats hate Thaksin so much.

I know, I know: early bar closings... but what else?

Early bars closing...

As others would, I won't stick a book in your face but the answers to your question are easily available on thaivisa.

Use the SEARCH function and read up some topics with their title containing the word Thaksin, go back as far as you can, you'll find most of the news articles along with the reasons why.

[plachon]

TRT rule was not what i consider democratic, but it could have been a stepping stone to a people's democracy a few years down the line.

I bet that was what Russians thought when bolsheviks first came to power. Few years down the line dictatorship by the proletariat will end and every one will live happily ever after in a democracy the communists initially promised.

The comparison is valid - both parties relied on underclasses as their political base, both parties run socialist programs, both parties didn't tolerate any dissent, both parties resorted to extreme violence to achieve their political goals, and both parties pitched their voters against the "elites".

TRT's populist platform was written by former Communist Party of Thailand comrades.

I am gob smacked.

Truly at a loss for words with such a ridiculously faulty comparison.

I will go now, the discussion has now moved into the absurdly surreal again.

Thanks for the comic relief.

I have to completely agree with you, Colpyat. It is hardly can be more nonsensical then to call khun Thaksin communist or socialist. Well, I would be very interested to know why so many expats hate Thaksin so much.

I know, I know: early bar closings... but what else?

Early bars closing...

As others would, I won't stick a book in your face but the answers to your question are easily available on thaivisa.

Use the SEARCH function and read up some topics with their title containing the word Thaksin, go back as far as you can, you'll find most of the news articles along with the reasons why.

I don't think Mumbo is much of a searcher or a reader of news, especially if it casts his hero in a less than flattering light. He prefers to think of Thaksin as a much maligned, misunderstood, legally correct, kosher in every way, man of the people who just got up the noses of a few of the old elite and TV posters. Apart from that the man was magic.

Mind you, he does have a very good point with the early bar closing fixation, ruining national productivity and all that.........

[vermin on arrival]

The problem with posts like yours is that you throw so many things simultaneously that it may impress everyone who has no idea what you

are talking about.

But closer inspection reveals only a bunch of unsubstantiated statements.

I am frankly sick and tired of posts like that and will not analyse it in full detail.

But:

1. The sell of Shin Corp to Temasek was perfectly legal. I have to admit that I am not expert on that but I did discuss it with a number of experts and they assured me that apart of minor technicalities the deal is perfectly legal.

2. To say that Thaksin is responsible for the violence in the South is a total absurd. While you are correctly indicate that he (more precisely Purachai as an interior minister at the time) made initially some mistakes,

he proved to be a fast learner. The statement is completely nonsensical.

In one of my posts above in this thread you may learn about the role of general Sonthi in the situation in the South.

Just because of the post like yours (which summarily execute Thaksin without giving any proof of guilt), I consider the participation in the discussions with certain number of members as a complete waist of time.

I was trying to be comprehensive and give the full list of things which I thought were wrong with the past administration and why I supported the verdict of the tribunal. I also apologized at the beginning of my post for the length. My post was so long as it was, to go into more detail would have made it extremely long, and would have required a bit of research, and I was just writing the things I could think of off the top of my head. Since I had never posted on this topic, I tried to get in as much as possible. Sorry that you had to suffer through reading it

I take issue with your view of discussing things with me a as complete waste of time. I certainly would show you a little bit more respect as I do now.

1.Yes, the sale was legal, but that's because he had been manipulating things the whole time to prepare for his big payday with his huge majority in the Parliament.

The conflict of interest of him and his party is clearly evident and it should not have been allowed.

2. Putting a fair share of the blame for the problems in the South is not nonsensical, or totally absurd as you put it, if you see how things picked up. He said there was no terrorism. He ended the special administrative region which had been successfully keeping the peace there. He, as Prime Minister, was responsible for the orders of how to treat the provinces involved in the unrest, orders which outraged the local populace(the buck stops with him and not with his subordinates). Do you really think he did a good job handling this ulcer?

Certainly some of the things are unsubstatiated, but they are highly probable. I've been following the regime of TRT and Thaksin the whole time. I find him guitly for seeing what he has done the whole time he has been in office, a litany of lies and calculated moves for his own self interest. Earlier you asked why so many farang hate Thaksin. I gave you my reasons. Did you want to know or not?

Hey, feel free to go to town and attack me for all of my unsubstiated claims. I did this to spur reasoned debate, and not just to "impress the reader". Can you be calm, cool and respectful as I am while you do so?

You may be sick of these posts like mine. I'm sick of people who just attack the poster and don't deal with what is being discussed. Yes, we obviously disagree. Can we be polite to one another?

Edited June 1, 2007 by vermin on arrival

[Jai Dee]

Former TRT MP demands politicians to work for the country

Former Thai Rak Thai party-list MP Premsak Phiayura requests political parties to do the best for the country instead of their own interests.

Mr. Premsak, who is currently a Buddhist monk named Phra Premsak Pemsako, says political movements aimed to withdraw the new constitution draft are nothing but useless since the Council for National Security (CNS) is entitled to choose any previous constitution as stated in the interim charter. He views the constitutional amendment could be done easier than the previous once since the public members are encouraged to take part in politics.

Phra Premsak suggests all parties to keep away from violence and cooperate with one another to pass the constitution draft for the new government to administer.

Phra Pemsak reminds Thai people to have the presence of mind and clear up the misunderstandings to honour His Majesty the King, adding that the 111 top executives of the disbanded TRT could do something else useful to the society rather than being politicians.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 01 June 2007

[Jai Dee]

EC indicates general election on December is good timing

The Election Commission (EC) views that holding the next general election on December this year would be appropriate.

Election commissioner Praphan Naikowit speaks of Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont's plan to expedite the general election date, saying he personally believes the Constitutional Tribunal’s verdict on the five political parties' dissolution case will have no effect on the timing of the country's election. He says the public hearing could be organized earlier on August 19th.

Mr. Praphan says even though the EC wishes to speed up the election date, but the processes are more complicated.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 01 June 2007

[gbt71fa]

The problem with posts like yours is that you throw so many things simultaneously that it may impress everyone who has no idea what you

are talking about.

But closer inspection reveals only a bunch of unsubstantiated statements.

I am frankly sick and tired of posts like that and will not analyse it in full detail.

But:

1. The sell of Shin Corp to Temasek was perfectly legal. I have to admit that I am not expert on that but I did discuss it with a number of experts and they assured me that apart of minor technicalities the deal is perfectly legal.

2. To say that Thaksin is responsible for the violence in the South is a total absurd. While you are correctly indicate that he (more precisely Purachai as an interior minister at the time) made initially some mistakes,

he proved to be a fast learner. The statement is completely nonsensical.

In one of my posts above in this thread you may learn about the role of general Sonthi in the situation in the South.

Just because of the post like yours (which summarily execute Thaksin without giving any proof of guilt), I consider the participation in the discussions with certain number of members as a complete waist of time.

You are right. The muslim terrorists are responsible for the violence in the south. Nobody made them behead monks, blow-up teachers, and kill civilians. My god, that poster has a dangerous mindset. Thailand is a corrupt nation. Thaskin may have been corrupt but, so far, the system has yet take to account or even tried to make a real case against him. If you want to pin blame for the ongoing violence in the south than spot on the ones who are doing the killing.

Edited June 1, 2007 by Jai Dee
quote limits corrected for clarity

[Jai Dee]

Verdict of the electoral frauds leads positive index in the stock market

The verdict of the electoral frauds has gained investor’s confidence, resulting positive index in the Stock Exchange of Thailand (SET) this morning.

Vice President of the Siam City Securities Sukit Udomsirikul (สุกิจ อุดมศิริกุล) says the court’s clear verdict in the party’s dissolution cases is considered as good news for investors in the stock market. However, investors still want to see result of other matters, including whether the 15th and 27th announcements of the Council for National Security (CNS) will be revoked and whether the first constitution draft will be approved.

Investors have been suggested to invest in companies having high security, including energy and petrochemical groups.

The SET’s morning trading of today (June 1st) is slightly active, increasing by 6.47 points or 743.87 points.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 01 June 2007

[vermin on arrival]

The problem with posts like yours is that you throw so many things simultaneously that it may impress everyone who has no idea what you

are talking about.

But closer inspection reveals only a bunch of unsubstantiated statements.

I am frankly sick and tired of posts like that and will not analyse it in full detail.

But:

1. The sell of Shin Corp to Temasek was perfectly legal. I have to admit that I am not expert on that but I did discuss it with a number of experts and they assured me that apart of minor technicalities the deal is perfectly legal.

2. To say that Thaksin is responsible for the violence in the South is a total absurd. While you are correctly indicate that he (more precisely Purachai as an interior minister at the time) made initially some mistakes,

he proved to be a fast learner. The statement is completely nonsensical.

In one of my posts above in this thread you may learn about the role of general Sonthi in the situation in the South.

Just because of the post like yours (which summarily execute Thaksin without giving any proof of guilt), I consider the participation in the discussions with certain number of members as a complete waist of time.

You are right. The muslim terrorists are responsible for the violence in the south. Nobody made them behead monks, blow-up teachers, and kill civilians. My god, that poster has a dangerous mindset. Thailand is a corrupt nation. Thaskin may have been corrupt but, so far, the system has yet take to account or even tried to make a real case against him. If you want to pin blame for the ongoing violence in the south than spot on the ones who are doing the killing.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not absolving the terrorists in the South for their activities. I'm saying that his mismanagement of the situation is what caused the whole thing to get out of hand and may have led to its beginning. As I recollect, the military did not want to have the special administrative region dissolved as they still wanted to stay on top of things. He did so anyway. Within a short time, I would have to check to be sure how long, things began. Am I the only one who sees a causation here?

I don't think that I have a dangerous mindset. There are two sides in every quarrel and the activities of one can have an affect on those of the other. To deny this seems illiogical.

Just as the farmers in Isaan have legitimate grivances so do the muslims in the South. Please don't take this to mean that I'm endorsing the activities of the terrorists. I am categorically not doing so. I'm pointing the finger of blame at Thaksin for his mismanagement of the situation.

Edited June 1, 2007 by vermin on arrival

[Aujuba]

Vermin, I don't see why you are so worried about giving some support to the people in the south. Yes, some of them are terrorists and some of the Thai forces probably are too. Just because you wear a uniform doesn't mean you care about human rights etc. If we got all the information about what the military and police did down there in the past the problem might have been solved by now.(As would the Al Queda/Iraq problem) Have you seen the Tak Bai video of Thai forces kicking the crap out of men lying on the ground with their arms over their head? I'd really like a link to that. I saw it two weeks before the Coup and it was horrible. It looked like the stuff from the 1970s at Thammasat. It's just an eye for an eye for all I can see. As long as the people don't know the truth things will go on. In twenty years we will know who the 'terrorists' really were.

When Thaksin became prime minister I believe he took charge of the government. Like it or not he is responsible for what happened under him. More people have died in the south under his watch than any other prime minister. Instead of passing out bicycles to people in area's friendly to TRT he should have taken more interest in the lives of all those people.

[vermin on arrival]

Vermin, I don't see why you are so worried about giving some support to the people in the south. Yes, some of them are terrorists and some of the Thai forces probably are too. Just because you wear a uniform doesn't mean you care about human rights etc. If we got all the information about what the military and police did down there in the past the problem might have been solved by now.(As would the Al Queda/Iraq problem) Have you seen the Tak Bai video of Thai forces kicking the crap out of men lying on the ground with their arms over their head? I'd really like a link to that. I saw it two weeks before the Coup and it was horrible. It looked like the stuff from the 1970s at Thammasat. It's just an eye for an eye for all I can see. As long as the people don't know the truth things will go on. In twenty years we will know who the 'terrorists' really were.

When Thaksin became prime minister I believe he took charge of the government. Like it or not he is responsible for what happened under him. More people have died in the south under his watch than any other prime minister. Instead of passing out bicycles to people in area's friendly to TRT he should have taken more interest in the lives of all those people.

Aujuba,

I'm just sensitive to the charge that people might think I was supporting the burning of monks and teachers, which I don't, and I wanted to make it perfectly clear that I wasn't. In general, I agree with all that you say about the South. What is going on down there is a tragedy for all involved(how's that for a pc comment-pc but true)

I thought what happened at Tak Bai was horrible and is one of the acts of mismangement(torture) by the authorities which has helped inflame the insurgency. I never saw the video. How can I do so?

As for Al-Queda and Iraq, it is kind of off topic if related issue. Certainly the Bush Administration, my government, has bungled it, but even if they did things well, I think we would have a situation that would take a generation to solve.

Edited June 1, 2007 by vermin on arrival

[Jai Dee]

Minister Thira keeps close watch on farmers supporting TRT

Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives Thira Sutabutr (ธีระ สูตะบุตร) instructs provincial agricultural officials across the country to keep a close watch on farmer groups who support the Thai Rak Thai Party (TRT) to prevent them from marching to Bangkok.

The minister says he has delivered his instruction after the Constitution Tribunal ruled to disband TRT. However, no movement to oppose the verdicts has been reported. As for the farmer groups, Mr Thira says he is not concerned over them and if they are to march to the capital, it is because of other reasons aside from the verdicts.

Mr Thira adds that the ministry will move on with its strategies to develop the agricultural sector and expects that the gross domestic of agricultural products will increase at the end of this year. In addition, the ministry has policy to promote the export of pork and swine products to Russia where Thailand has a share in the swine market of more than a hundred billion baht per year.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 01 June 2007

[nick2k]

TRT rule was not what i consider democratic, but it could have been a stepping stone to a people's democracy a few years down the line.

I bet that was what Russians thought when bolsheviks first came to power. Few years down the line dictatorship by the proletariat will end and every one will live happily ever after in a democracy the communists initially promised.

The comparison is valid - both parties relied on underclasses as their political base, both parties run socialist programs, both parties didn't tolerate any dissent, both parties resorted to extreme violence to achieve their political goals, and both parties pitched their voters against the "elites".

TRT's populist platform was written by former Communist Party of Thailand comrades.

I am gob smacked.

Truly at a loss for words with such a ridiculously faulty comparison.

I will go now, the discussion has now moved into the absurdly surreal again.

Thanks for the comic relief.

I have to completely agree with you, Colpyat. It is hardly can be more nonsensical then to call khun Thaksin communist or socialist. Well, I would be very interested to know why so many expats hate Thaksin so much.

I know, I know: early bar closings... but what else?

just a guess... they had a friend who was into drugs somehow and got involved with the crackdown by thaksin.

if this was the case, you next need to wonder how they are connected?

[nick2k]

you know, when you think about it. the same people who voted for thaksin are still there. and in the future, those same people are going to vote again. for someone probably just like thaksin. someone who is looking after their needs. given that analysis, and also the fact that on average there is a coup in thailand every 4 years.

my guess is - the same thing will happen again because the the rich elite know they can't win a proper election. (coups are great. who gives a sh#t about the majority.)

this merrygoround is going to keep on going until the poor farmers figure it out. then, again, maybe they never will. it's been going on for how many years??

I think I got thailand figured out.

[vermin on arrival]

just a guess... they had a friend who was into drugs somehow and got involved with the crackdown by thaksin.

if this was the case, you next need to wonder how they are connected?

I don't think you have to be a drug addict or a friend of a drug addict to disagree with how the war on drugs was waged and with the Thaksin administration. Certainly, I'm not. Although if you were part of that group, you would certainly not appreciate what happened.

I recently read an article in the Nation in which some commisssion was investigating some of the murders/victims of the war on drugs for their family members. Of the 40 cases that were investigated, 36 were found to not have been involved in drugs and drug trafficing at all. Maybe these were not representative of all the cases, but the 90% rate of killiing innocents which you find in this case(which may not be representative of them all) is certainly not a good track record.