KLM Confusion

[KhaoYai]

Not really a post for discussion - more of an info-post.

 

I won't go into too much detail as its long and boring but I've been fighting with KLM for over 3 days and not getting very far as they either don't answer the phone or reply extremely slowly on their social media. They also give wrong information and their requirements don't match the actual rules.

 

My wife (Thai national) is travelling back to Thailand in October from Manchester UK. We understood that as a Thai national, she didn't need to have an RT-PCR test prior to departure - she's going into quarantine not using a Sandbox.  We are all constantly reminded that it is our responsibility to check the travel rules for the destination country so I've been keeping an eye on them for a couple of weeks. We then heard about a young Thai lad who had been visiting his mother in the UK and was refused boarding by KLM at Manchester on 11 September because he didn't provide a negative PCR test result. 

 

Whilst trying to get clarification from KLM on the matter I started looking around for PCR tests in our area.  The cheapest ones were 'Home Test Kits' - you take the swab yourself and return it to the lab for testing. However, I'd read on the Thai Embassy website that some airlines were refusing to allow tests done by this method so I called KLM Healthcare to ask what they required.  They told me categorically that my wife would require a test and that 'Home Test Kits' were not acceptable.

 

I then discovered that KLM has a (supposedly useful) website that gives you destination/nationality specific requirements.  Entering my wife's details resulted in seeing where some of the confusion was coming from - they were mixing Sandbox requirements up with those for people entering full quarantine.  They also seemed to be stating that the Bangkok, Pattaya, Chiang Mai et all Sandboxes were operational from 1 October! That site has been slightly edited since.

 

The conversations went on and on with my final e-mail to both KLM and the people who provide their travel requiremnts for them (Traveldoc) as yet (30/09/21) unanswered.  As with all other airlines, KLM like to state that they don't make the rules, the countries do so I ended that e-mail by simply asking them to either confirm that my wife did NOT need a PCR test OR if they said she DID to point me to the regulation stating she DID.

 

Lots of phone calls, text messages and e-mails later I was still no nearer to getting an answer. KLM's staff were adamant that my wife DID need a test because she was flying to Bangkok - I pointed out that those rules applied to people entering under the Sandbox Scheme (which hasn't actually started), and that was stated on their website but they were having none of it.  Many would have given up and simply booked a test, I fully understand that but I was doing this partly on principle and partly because we've had some very large unexpected bills lately so need to watch the pennies. To say nothing of the addional expenses we've already had to fork out that wouldn't normally form part of travel - testing in Thailand , ASQ etc.

 

Upshot of this (still no reply from KLM or Traveldoc) - I managed to get a number for the company that handles KLM's ground operations at Manchester and spoke one of the check-in supervisers. These are the people that will ultimately either allow or deny boarding. She confirmed that under current rules my wife, as a Thai national, DID NOT require a PCR test. Interestingly she told me that KLM had advised them not to use the Traveldoc system for flights to Thailand as it had been wrong for a month! That might explain the case of the Thai lad who was refused boarding earlier this month.

 

I was also advised to check the information daily as the situation is flux.

 

I said I wouldn't go into too much detail - believe me, this is the short version!

 

The rules today (For KLM) are clear to me but not to KLM it seems. From their Traveldoc page - entering One Way, Manchester - Bangkok, 7 October, Thai Passport, Thai Nationality.

 

Covid-19 Travel Alerts

• Covid-19 Entry Permission: Passengers travelling to Phuket, Krabi, Phang-Nga, Surat Thani, Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Chon Buri, Phetchaburi, or Prachuap Khiri Khan under the "Tourist Sandbox Scheme" must present the following documents before departure:

  1. Certificate of Entry (COE);
  2. Valid visa (if needed);
  3. Vaccination Certificate proving that the passenger is fully vaccinated against Covid-19 with a vaccine approved by either the Thai Ministry of Health or by WHO, and that at least 14 days have elapsed since the last dose;
  4. A printed negative RT-PCR test result obtained within 72 hours prior to departure;
  5. Covid-19 travel insurance certificate;
  6. Booking confirmation of a SHA+ Hotel booking;
  7. A confirmed travel itinerary; and
  8. A T8 Health Form.

  Passengers must also download the ThailandPlus mobile app on their phone.

• Covid-19 Test Advised: Nationals of Thailand are advised to hold a medical certificate showing a negative RT-PCR test obtained within 72 hours prior to departure (tests other than a RT-PCR test are not accepted), including when transiting through Suvarnabhumi Airport (BKK).
• Covid-19 Authorisation Required: Passengers must hold a printed copy of a Certificate of Entry showing they have registered online.
• Covid-19 Application Required: Passengers must download the ThailandPlus mobile app prior to departure.
• Covid-19 Quarantine Accommodation Required: Passengers must hold a reservation for the Alternative Quarantine (AQ) hotel prior to boarding. Passengers must quarantine for 14 days on arrival in a government designated facility at their own expense.
• Covid-19 Quarantine Accommodation Required: Passengers must hold a reservation for the Alternative State Quarantine (ASQ) hotel prior to boarding unless "State Quarantine" (SQ) is mentioned in their Certificate of Entry. Passengers must quarantine for 14 days on arrival in a government designated or ASQ facility at their own expense.
• Covid-19 Application Advised: Passengers are advised to download the AOT Airports app for tracking symptoms and entering locations on arrival. Passengers are also advised to download the SydeKick for ThaiFightCOVID app if they have arrived from a country at risk.

 

 

https://klm.traveldoc.aero/

Edited September 30, 2021 by KhaoYai

[Upnotover]

I am guessing the no-test requirement comes from the days when the Embassy was arranging repatriation flights and tests were indeed not required for Thais.  There is still no requirement for a test to get the COE however the London website states;

• Please check with the airline you are traveling to if there are any other specific requirements, such as a negative COVID-19 test (no virus), otherwise you may be denied boarding.

You'll find this in the Thai language page for returning Thais. https://london.thaiembassy.org/th/content/ขั้นตอนการกลับประเทศไทยของคนไทย?page=5f4b6330342f2d1f4c6c40a4&menu=5f4b652c522bf45dc44cda62

 

[KhaoYai]

3 hours ago, Upnotover said:

I am guessing the no-test requirement comes from the days when the Embassy was arranging repatriation flights and tests were indeed not required for Thais.  There is still no requirement for a test to get the COE however the London website states;

• Please check with the airline you are traveling to if there are any other specific requirements, such as a negative COVID-19 test (no virus), otherwise you may be denied boarding.

You'll find this in the Thai language page for returning Thais. https://london.thaiembassy.org/th/content/ขั้นตอนการกลับประเทศไทยของคนไทย?page=5f4b6330342f2d1f4c6c40a4&menu=5f4b652c522bf45dc44cda62

 

Yes, that change appeared yesterday - until then it said it was recommended in order to keep the country safe - my wife would be doing that by quarantining. But in typical Thai Embassy London style they've got it wrong - the airline follows the country's regulations not vice versa. The country's regulations only require PCR tests for those entering a sandbox. I believe London are the only ones stating this - I checked 3 others and their websites were still stating 'recommended'.

 

Anyway, after 3 days of wrangling and eventually speaking directly to the people who will check my wife in, I'm happy a test is not required and she will be allowed to board. I will however, be checking KLM's requirements daily.

[Heng]

Ran into the same thing with Korean Air on my way back from Guam last week.   Took them about 10 minutes to determine that a Fit to Fly cert wasn't required, even had guys on the concourse before boarding just randomly asking for PCR test results.   To be expected in some measure nowadays... lots of different rules that are rolled out, tweeked, cancelled with varying levels of updates. 

[KhaoYai]

On 9/30/2021 at 3:59 PM, Heng said:

To be expected in some measure nowadays... lots of different rules that are rolled out, tweeked, cancelled with varying levels of updates. 

Varying levels of updates yes - Traveldoc have updates their sites. They have removed 1 October from the list of Sandbox locations and included the new rules on quarantine.  However some people may think they cannot visit Thailand at all if they believe the list of people allowed to travel in the first part of the information.

 

• Covid-19 Entry Permission: Passengers are not permitted to enter or transit Thailand.

  This does not apply to:

  1. Nationals of Thailand and their families (spouse, parents, children);
  2. Former Thai nationals (provided holding a Non-Immigrant O visa);
  3. Staff of diplomatic missions or international organisations, or persons permitted by Thailand Ministry of Foreign Affairs, including their families (spouse, parents, children);
  4. Passengers with a valid permanent residence certificate issued by Thailand, including their families (spouse, children);
  5. Passengers with a work permit issued by Thailand or have been granted permission to work by Thai authorities, including their spouses and children;
  6. Passengers in formal education in Thailand and their parents;
  7. Passengers travelling to Thailand with the purpose of short-term studying, training, or doing internship with government agencies, state enterprises, or educational establishments in Thailand approved by Thai authorities, or attending religious activities organized by domestic private organization (provided holding a Non-Immigrant ED visa);
  8. Passengers who have obtained authorisation from Thai authorities;
  9. Crew members with a confirmed return date;
  10. Passengers travelling for non-Covid-19 related medical or humanitarian reasons;
  11. Passengers holding an APEC Business Travel Card, provided it has 'THA' on the back of the card, and they are arriving from Australia, China, Hong Kong, Japan, Korea (South), Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, Taiwan or Viet Nam;
  12. Passengers entering Thailand for court appearance purposes (provided holding a Non-Immigrant O visa);
  13. Passengers in transit (provided holding a Non-Immigrant TS visa); or
  14. Passengers entering Thailand for sports purposes (provided holding a Non-Immigrant S visa).

• Covid-19 Entry Permission: Passengers travelling to Phuket, Krabi, Phang-Nga, Surat Thani, Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Chon Buri, Phetchaburi, or Prachuap Khiri Khan under the "Tourist Sandbox Scheme" must present the following documents before departure:

  1. Certificate of Entry (COE);
  2. Valid visa (if needed);
  3. Vaccination Certificate proving that the passenger is fully vaccinated against Covid-19 with a vaccine approved by either the Thai Ministry of Health or by WHO, and that at least 14 days have elapsed since the last dose;
  4. A printed negative RT-PCR test result obtained within 72 hours prior to departure;
  5. Covid-19 travel insurance certificate;
  6. Booking confirmation of a SHA+ Hotel booking;
  7. A confirmed travel itinerary; and
  8. A T8 Health Form.

  Passengers must also download the ThailandPlus mobile app on their phone.

  Passengers travelling onward to other parts of Thailand must stay in their “Tourist Sandbox” location for 7 days and obtain a negative RT-PCR test result prior to continuing their journey.

• Covid-19 Authorisation, Test, and Insurance Required: All passengers must hold a Certificate of Entry issued by a Thai representative in the country of entry, a medical certificate showing a negative RT-PCR test issued no more than 72 hours before departure (tests other than a RT-PCR test are not accepted), and medical insurance worth at least $100,000 USD and that covers costs in case of Covid-19. It is strongly advised to hold a hard copy of the test result certificate.

• Covid-19 Authorisation Required: Passengers must hold a printed copy of a Certificate of Entry showing they have registered online.
• Covid-19 Application Required: Passengers must download the ThailandPlus mobile app prior to departure.

• Covid-19 Quarantine Accommodation Required: Passengers must hold a reservation for the Alternative Quarantine (AQ) hotel prior to boarding. Passengers must quarantine for 10 days on arrival in a government designated facility at their own expense. Passengers will be subject to a Covid-19 PCR test on arrival and day 9 of the quarantine.

  This does not apply to fully vaccinated passengers who are required to quarantine for 7 days Alternative Quarantine (AQ) hotel. These passengers will be subject to a Covid-19 PCR test on arrival and day 6 of the quarantine. Passengers must have completed the vaccination with a vaccine approved by Thailand’s Ministry of Public Health or the World Health Organisation (WHO) at least14 days prior to departure.

• Covid-19 Application Advised: Passengers are advised to download the AOT Airports app for tracking symptoms and entering locations on arrival. Passengers are also advised to download the SydeKick for ThaiFightCOVID app if they have arrived from a country at risk.

https://klm.traveldoc.aero/results

[KhaoYai]

49 minutes ago, ToothlessMatt said:

@KhaoYai Hi, I am currently working out how to get into Thailand as soon as the 7 day quarantine lifts (I'm double vaxxed).
KLM's travel doc's site is useless.
I could not find a single conbination of documents that led to permission to board the the flight, including having a thai passport.
It's good to know the groundstaff aren't relying on it.
The question going through my mind is when to apply for the Certificate of Entry?
My understanding is that you only have 15 days to supply details of flights etc once the first element of the COE is approved.
If, and it is a big if, they remove the 7 day quarrantine for double vaxxed on Nov 1, how long will it take for the new arrangements to be current at COE processing level?
Does October 20th sound about right to submit the first application?

I wouldn't rely on quarantine ending - I think the report on here that talked about that had a poor headline.  I think you will find that what happens is more 'Sandboxes' open up. For you, that will mean waiting until the decision is not only made, you will need to wait until the Thai Embassy wherever you are gets their act together on it - why?  Because its a different application with different requires different requirements.

 

If you were going for a 'standard' quarantine entry then your COE would most likely reflect any changes.  When my wife applied for her pre approval she got it the next day.  We then heard quarantine was changing so we hung on until the announcement was made official before sending in her booking details. She then received her COE which stated 'not less than 10 days.

 

If you want to take part in a Sandbox scheme such as Bangkok, I think you'll just have to wait.  I don't think you can just apply for COE and then change it.  If you're in the UK - well both stages of my wife's COE application was dealt with within 24 hours so you shouldn't have a massive wait.

 

As for KLM, yes, as my post is titled - they can be very confusing, I haven't looked at it today but if you'd care to post your details I'll try to point you in the right direction - Traveling from, Travelling to, Date, Passport Issued by, Nationality.

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, ToothlessMatt said:

It's good to know the groundstaff aren't relying on it.

A couple of important points:

 

Although they know the Traveldoc site is unreliable, you will still have to comply with the actual requirements.

 

My enquiries were only with the ground staff at Manchester Airport - operated on behalf of KLM by Stobart Aviation. Different staff at other airports may have their own interpretation of the rules.

[KhaoYai]

Update to this:

 

Despite days of phone calls and being assured by the ground staff at Manchester Airport that as a Thai citizen, going in to quarantine on arrival, my wife would not need a negative PCR test result to be able to fly home - we arrived at the airport this afternoon and she was asked to provide one at check-in.

 

Just as well I'd ignored the airport's announcements that only those actually travelling should enter the terminal buildings.  After 15 minutes of arguing, the staff making phone calls and checking websites, my wife was issued with a boarding pass.  If I hadn't accompanied her to check-in, I think I'd have got a phone call asking to be picked up.

 

Anyone in the same position needs to make sure the ground staff look at the rules for:

 

A. Thai Citizens travelling on a Thai Passport.

and

B. They need to ignore the first set of rules on their Traveldoc website and apply only those from the second bullet point down.

 

The set of rules on the first bullet point are only applicable to those entering under one of the Sandbox Schemes. All other Thai citizens come under the rules from the second bullet point down which state that an RT-PCR test is advised. 

 

Traveldoc could easily recify this situation by clearly distinguishing between the 2 types of entry - I'm not writing to them again, they made ammendments after my first e-mail but never actually replied to me.

 

I can't be sure on this but some Thai's who have both UK and Thai passports leave the UK on their UK passport.  I would strongly advise against that at the moment because I believe they would then come under the rules for foreigners which are different.

Edited October 7, 2021 by KhaoYai