Cash withdrawal with Visa or Mastercard cheaper then ATM?

[yogi yogi]

take large amount of cash when u fly over to thailand

[4MyEgo]

3 hours ago, Pib said:

Expect you had a "Visa" card where a Bt200 counter fee applies.  No counter withdrawal fee for a Mastercard or other card.  My card is a Mastercard...I don't get charged a fee for the counter withdrawals I do every 2 or 3 months.

 

https://www.krungsri.com/Krungsri2020/media/Banking-Rate/service-fees/en/electronics-banking-service-fees-07102021-en.pdf

 

Correct, and I am pretty sure the 300 baht fee applied for those wanting to use a Visa Credit Card, e.g. they tried that on me, and I explained to them that I was using my own money (debit card), took a while to sink in and they came back to me, yes 200 baht is the fee.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 10/22/2021 at 10:06 PM, stat said:

PS: I have a cc which gives me the FX rate without any % addition fees or cost other then the 220 Baht ATM Fe

Stat, you mentioned above planning to use a credit card (cc) above as opposed to a debit card.

 

So, just be aware and for others reading here, the 220b Thai ATM fee and the prospect of your home card issuer charging a foreign currency conversion fee on the use of your card abroad aren't the only fees to be aware of.

 

When you plan to use a home country credit card in Thailand for a so-called "counter withdrawal," people also need to be aware that a lot of credit card companies also have a separate so-called "cash advance" fee charged against the credit card anytime you use it anywhere (domestic or internationally) to obtain a cash advance. (That type of fee, by comparison, doesn't typically apply to debit card use, because it's your own funds you're withdrawing in those instances).

 

For a lot of U.S. credit cards, the typical cash advance fees (whether using the credit card to withdraw funds from an ATM or do a so-called bank counter withdrawal) often can be even higher than the typical foreign currency conversion charges. Lately, I've seen credit card cash advance fees of up to $10 minimum (for any amount) or 5% of the advance, whichever is greater. And a 5% surcharge on a credit card cash advance would make it a pretty darned expensive advance.

 

So, when treading into such waters, it's always good to be cognizant of all the different kinds of fees that can come into play.

 

Some credit cards may not have either a foreign currency fee OR any cash advance fees on their use. I have some of those. But I'd say that vast majority of credit cards, at least among those issued in the U.S., have one or the other or both, especially those issued by the various mega banks/finance companies.

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[stat]

16 hours ago, Pib said:

if it's a debit card transaction it will usually be the actual date you did the transaction; but if it's a credit card in might be a day or two after the actual transaction date based on my personal experience as I use my U.S. debit and credit cards a LOT in Thailand.  This is because the settlement process used for debit and credit cards is a little different....a debit card transaction settles faster. 

 

And by "settles" I mean when the bank/merchant initiating the transaction has completed all its necessary actions required for the card network (i.e., Visa/Mastercard/AmEx/UnionPay/etc) to lock into stone what your home country card-issuing bank/company must pay to settle with the bank/merchant on the other end.

 

And do not confuse the date of final posting on your bank/card account to the exchange rate settlement date used, because bank/card company accounting systems vary in how they process & show a transaction varies, etc.   The posting date shown on your statement may be different than the actual settlement date established by the card network.  The exchange rate actually shown on your statement or you personally calculate may not match with the card network date....but you will fine the exchange rate shown by the bank does match perfectly (like to the fifth decimal place) to the preceding day which may have been the actual date of the transaction...or a day or two after.    it just banks vary in how they display/document a transaction.

 

Personally, I long forgot about worrying about the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate I will get when I go make a cash withdrawal, buy an item, etc., because I know in the absence of some major financial event the exchange rate varies little from day to day...up a little or down a little.   Your chances are probably 50-50 that if you buy an item today that if you don't get today's exchange rate but get the next day's exchange rate that the next day's exchange rate will be a little better.  

 

And if you are doing a withdrawal/purchase on/around a weekend then with Visa the exchange rate for Sat-Mon is generally locked/the same...the same for each one of those 3 days.  And for Mastercard the generally lock their rates for Fri-Sun.    So, for 3 days each week the rates are generally locked and for 4 days they go up or down a little each day.  Don't believe me....go the the Visa & Mastercard exchange rate website and check exchange rates for different days, especially their rates Fri-Mon.   Enter a transaction amount...check the exchange rate given for that date like for a Sat and then just change the date to see if/how much the rate changes.

 

Visa Exchange Rate Webpage

 

Mastercard Exchange Rate Webpage

 

And for you folks with cards which charge a foreign transaction fee which is generally in the 1 to 3% (or sometimes higher) ballpark, well, remember that's your "card-issuing bank" charging that fee which effectively lowers the real card-network exchange rate.  Blame your card-issuing bank for that fee....don't blame the card-network or the bank/merchant where you actually did the transaction.  Any yes, some merchants may try to charge extra for a transaction or a Thai bank giving you money may try to get you to accept their DCC transaction (i.e., get their lower local rate)...don't blame that on card-network or your card-issuing bank for that local fee. 

 

For me, the great majority of my U.S. debit/credit cards do not charge a foreign transaction fees so they are the only ones that get used in Thailand....the other ones live in the darkness of my safe and/or only used for U. S. buys/payments where the foreign fee would not be applied.  And I have several debit cards that also reimburse all ATM fees like the Thai bank Bt220 fee....but for the most part I just do counter-withdrawals with my debit card (a cap1 card) that allows up to $5K per day counter withdrawal and another $1K at an ATM (but no ATM fee reimbursement).   Periodically walking into a bank and doing a counter withdrawal for Bt150K using that card supplies my "money from the home country" needs to top-up my Thai bank accts with baht. 

 

And this method in terms of "most baht at the least cost" beats all other methods to include Wise transfers.   Years back I use to post periodically some cost comparisons like this 1 July 2020 comparison.  Wise fees are a "tad" lower now but I don't think lower enough to make much of a difference in the cost analysis.  Heck for a $5,000 counter withdrawal using my debit card I got almost Bt1000 more than what a Wise transfer would have.   For a $1000 withdrawal it would be about Bt300 more.  Yea, if you have a no foreign transaction fee debit card which say has a healthy  daily counter withdrawal limit it is by far the best way to get the most baht.   And I use to say another benefit of a counter withdrawal over a money transfer is you get the money instantly in hand using a card which is still true, but since you can now also get money instantly thru Wise then card use or Wise use in terms of "how long it takes to get the money" has evened out.   Now it just basically boils down to "most baht got after all the exchange rate/fee dust settles along with time/effort in getting the money."   For me using my card still gets me the most money and the time/effort in doing it is only 5 to 10 minutes at the bank branch in my nearby Lotus mall that the wife and I go to multiple times per week for grocery shopping.

 

A 1 July 2020 Comparison

I think this is the best answer I ever receiced on the internet for a question of mine! Much obliged!

 

Fri-Sun rates do not change apparently. Any idea when the rates are set i.e. when does MC determine their Friday rate at Friday night or saturday?

 

So I will go with cash withdrawals on my european MC. The only thing to optimise in my case is hopeing to get a USD based prepaid or credit card as the USD vs baht spread is consistently smaller then EUR/BHT. I can exchange EUR.USD for a very very small spread in the 1 pips area with my broker. Any suggestions for a good MC that is USD and free of charge for europeans? Interactive Brokers comes to my mind but for the time being they only serve US based customers with their MC. At the schwaab website I have only found an American Express card. Currently no european bank reimburses the ATM fees, the main reason for me to go with cash withdrawals. I try to pay as much with my mastercard in Thailand as I do get a cashback of 0.21% but some things demand cash payment.

 

Thanks again

Edited October 27, 2021 by stat

[lkn]

For those with no fee debit cards, is the card / your banking relationship also free?

 

I am in Europe, and I have only found one bank that provides a no fee debit card (Revolut), but it’s limited to €1,000 per month.

 

Everybody else require a subscription of about €10/month (or higher), in order to provide a no (forex/ATM) fee debit card.

 

Wise has a 0.56% fee for THB, so paying €10/month for a card would only be profitable if I spent on average 70,000 baht/month (via the card).

 

As I don’t live full time in Thailand, I doubt my average spending is that high.

[Sticky Rice Balls]

9 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

What a surprise. One rule for you (no) but when it's to benefit a Thai the answer is yes.

Dont hate the player--hate the game

[stat]

2 hours ago, lkn said:

For those with no fee debit cards, is the card / your banking relationship also free?

 

I am in Europe, and I have only found one bank that provides a no fee debit card (Revolut), but it’s limited to €1,000 per month.

 

Everybody else require a subscription of about €10/month (or higher), in order to provide a no (forex/ATM) fee debit card.

 

Wise has a 0.56% fee for THB, so paying €10/month for a card would only be profitable if I spent on average 70,000 baht/month (via the card).

 

As I don’t live full time in Thailand, I doubt my average spending is that high.

There are several options with free visa card and no forex/ATM fee. DKB is a bit tricky as it requires 700€ per month paid to your account. Overal best is advanzia in my opinion.

 

https://financer.com/de/kreditkarten/

 

Googe translate can do the job to English. I dont know which nationalities they accept. Advanzia is based in Lux, so maybe that should work for you. Good luck!

[Jeffr2]

On 10/23/2021 at 12:37 AM, cdemundo said:

I am wondering about some of these same issues.

In the past I have used a Schwab bank ATM card which has no fee for international use and refunds ATM fees at the end of each month.

I have been looking at the exchange rate vs. Wise effective rate and it seems to be favorable.

 

Has anyone used Moneygram for transfers?

Experience and pros and cons of using Schwab vs Wise vs Moneygram?

Experience often reveals the flaws in using one system or the other, I have a Wise account but have not used it to get money in Thailand.

 

Also, is it imperative to have a Thai bank account if not on retirement visa that requires deposit in Thai bank?

Schwab does international wire transfers for me for free.  I have a standing wire order so can do it online, though have had a few problems with it lately, so had to call in.  Took 10 minutes on the phone.  Easy and great rates.

[Bangkok Barry]

4 hours ago, Sticky Rice Balls said:

Dont hate the player--hate the game

Reminds me of a Thai lady friend who had 50 kgs of luggage flying with THAI back home to Germany. No problem, no excess charge. I'm sure that if I bowled up with 50 kgs...... 

[lkn]

On 10/27/2021 at 3:14 AM, Pib said:

And this method in terms of "most baht at the least cost" beats all other methods to include Wise transfers

I’ve been chasing a free “no forex fee” card for a long time, because something just feels annoying about having to fork over a *percentage* when using my card abroad.

 

I have been using a Wise debit card for more than a year now, so I have a lot of charges in foreign currency, and just entered a handful of the larger ones in the MasterCard currency converter (with matching date), and on average the Wise amount (incl. fee) was actually lower than what MasterCard would have charged.

 

This wasn’t done overly systematic, and maybe there are fluctuations during the day where the currency converter just uses the average, but it convinced me that I should just keep using my Wise card (even though I did actually get a free “no forex fee” Visa card).

 

That said, Wise is not a good ATM card, as you can only do 2 cash withdrawals per month, and everything above 200 EUR/GBP has a surcharge of 1.75% (quoting from memory).

 

But I go cashless whenever possible, and do have a Thai debit card for when I need cash in Thailand.

[Sticky Rice Balls]

19 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Reminds me of a Thai lady friend who had 50 kgs of luggage flying with THAI back home to Germany. No problem, no excess charge. I'm sure that if I bowled up with 50 kgs...... 

I remember dumping stuff out of my bag in Peru as I was over limit--Ive always done LOS with nothing more than a carry on for at least 4-5 months..easy peasy

[Pib]

6 hours ago, lkn said:

I’ve been chasing a free “no forex fee” card for a long time, because something just feels annoying about having to fork over a *percentage* when using my card abroad.

 

I have been using a Wise debit card for more than a year now, so I have a lot of charges in foreign currency, and just entered a handful of the larger ones in the MasterCard currency converter (with matching date), and on average the Wise amount (incl. fee) was actually lower than what MasterCard would have charged.

 

This wasn’t done overly systematic, and maybe there are fluctuations during the day where the currency converter just uses the average, but it convinced me that I should just keep using my Wise card (even though I did actually get a free “no forex fee” Visa card).

 

That said, Wise is not a good ATM card, as you can only do 2 cash withdrawals per month, and everything above 200 EUR/GBP has a surcharge of 1.75% (quoting from memory).

 

But I go cashless whenever possible, and do have a Thai debit card for when I need cash in Thailand.

 

Below I did one quick comparison between using a no foreign transaction fee Mastercard/Visa debit/credit card in comparison to a Wise debit card.  It's only a one day comparison...not numerous different days....so it's only indicative of what a numerous day comparison might result in.  I used a Bt1,000 purchase amount and what that would equate to in a U.S. Dollar charge.  Mastercard and Visa both resulted in a $30.15 charge while the Wise debit card resulted in a $30.30 charge.   See the first 3 snapshot below.

 

And like you said, the Wise debit card kinda sucks as an ATM card to withdraw money with it's low monthly limit and if you go over those low limits then fees start kicking in.   And if using the card in a Thai ATM the Bt220 fee is not reimbursed....goes on top of any Wise withdrawal fees. Plus, Wise even charges a person $9 to initially issue the card....none of my U.S. debit/credit cards have an "initial issue fee" or annual fee.   See 4th/last image below..

 

 

With a no foreign transaction fee Mastercard debit/credit card a Bt1,000 purchase equates to a $30.15 charge.

 

 

 

With a no foreign transaction fee Visa debit/credit card a Bt1,000 purchase equates to a $30.15 charge.

 

 

 

 

However, a Wise debt card purchase results in a $30.30 charge.....15 cents more that if using a regular no foreign transaction fee Mastercard/Visa debit/credit card.

 

 

 

Wise Debit Card Basic Pricing

 

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Pib

[Bangkok Barry]

4 hours ago, Sticky Rice Balls said:

I remember dumping stuff out of my bag in Peru as I was over limit--Ive always done LOS with nothing more than a carry on for at least 4-5 months..easy peasy

I once had to fly back from London after a long trip to Europe - nearly three solid months there going from country to country as a journalist - with a three or four hours stopover in Bangkok before going on to Tokyo for four days. I arranged to meet my wife at the airport to offload most of my luggage, but my flight was delayed and I ended up going straight to the Tokyo flight with luggage I didn't need. And on the way back I was charged excess by United for bring three kgs over. <deleted>.

 

My suitcase also didn't arrive in Tokyo until two days into my visit, and shortly after I arrived I had to attend a function where the Crown Prince was present. With no fresh clothes and being unshaven, I made sure I stood at the back!

[lkn]

17 hours ago, Pib said:

Below I did one quick comparison between using a no foreign transaction fee Mastercard/Visa debit/credit card in comparison to a Wise debit card.  It's only a one day comparison...not numerous different days

This is interesting, because yesterday I sent €4,000 to my Thai bank account and received 153,649.83 baht.

 

Granted, this wasn’t using the debit card (what I compared in my previous post), but nonetheless, I entered that amount on the MasterCard currency conversion page to see what would have been withdrawn, had I used a MasterCard, and the amount was more than 4,000 EUR (this was of course yesterday).

 

Maybe Wise’s EUR pairings are better than the USD pairings (or MasterCard’s USD pairings are better)? All the Wise historic transactions I compared were EUR/xxx (although one was EUR/USD and here Wise also came out ahead).

 

Wise details (from yesterday):

 

MasterCard (using 28th of October, when I did above transfer):

 

But I also have the Revolut app which allows you to exchange money, and it will show the live “spot price” and within 10 seconds, this can easily go up/down 2 EUR when exchanging 4,000 EUR, it’s only 0.05%, so to really compare MasterCard and Wise rates, we would need a lot more samples.

 

17 hours ago, Pib said:

And like you said, the Wise debit card kinda sucks as an ATM card to withdraw money

Yes, this part sucks and I wish they would just allow setting the ATM limit to match the free tier, as I don’t often need cash, but when I do, I can never remember the exact rules.

[Tracyb]

You say,” hopefully I won’t need one with my oa visa.”  Will you be planning to apply for an extension of stay?  If so you’ll definitely need one!