People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others

[Chomper Higgot]

19 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Of course they do, but IMO the government is storing up hatred and resentment for bringing them in. Wait for the next election.

A clear majority of Germans have already been vaccinated, little surprise then that polls indicate majority support for the vaccines, restrictions on the unvaccinated and mandates.

 

Added to which, it’s the unvaccinated who are at significantly higher risk of serious illness or death.

 

Each serious illness and death will bring home the necessity of vaccination.

 

There is no growth in unvaccinated people and no political future in unnecessary sickness and death.

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[blackprince]

Covid, like any pandemic, is multifaceted and the profile morphs over time.

 

The OP headline may have been true in some countries at a certain point in time, but it's not  true more generally. For example in the UK it's clearly not true (BBC link below):

 

"With nine in 10 of those aged 12 or over having had a single jab and eight in 10 having had a second, the focus has shifted to boosters"

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55274833

 

Outside of the developed world (ie most of the world) the issue is lack of vaccines, not anti-vaxx or vaccine hesitancy. The west has so far failed to live up to its pledge to vaccinate the world, but that is rarely mentioned here. Instead what we see is 1st worlders perpetuating their own culture wars.

 

And as for polls and democracy, the hottest topic on this forum a couple of years ago was Brexit - a poll where everyone knew the rules before it happened, but many liberal progressives refused to accept the result - even non British liberal progressives.

 

As a liberal progressive of many decades standing myself I had to part company with many LPs over their hypocrisy about Brexit, just as I do now over their lack of tolerance for dissenting views over Covid.

 

Being a LIberal requires tolerance of dissent; if you cannot tolerate dissent, you are not a Liberal.

 

(Needless to say that's not the same thing as tolerating fake news, but many LPs don't seem to understand the difference, and even seem to be pretty good at disseminating biased narratives themselves.)

 

Threads like this do nothing but perpetuate a culture war imho. No-one has been converted.

 

I'm a bit busy today, and won't be available for comebacks.

[Scott]

Conspiracy post and reply removed.   Continue and face a suspension.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's correct, at least till ( IMO ) over 70% of the population are obese ( and we are trying to get there, judging by the people I see around me ), but the difference between a viral pandemic and smoking/ obesity is that the first isn't self inflicted. We don't have to smoke and we don't have to eat too much, but catching a virus is much more complicated to avoid.

We don't have to smoke and we don't have to eat too much (although obesity isn't necessarily about eating too much as the latest research shows) but we also know that both behaviors are very difficult to give up. Whereas I have yet to hear of anyone claiming that not getting vaccinated is addictive.

[ozimoron]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's correct, at least till ( IMO ) over 70% of the population are obese ( and we are trying to get there, judging by the people I see around me ), but the difference between a viral pandemic and smoking/ obesity is that the first isn't self inflicted. We don't have to smoke and we don't have to eat too much, but catching a virus is much more complicated to avoid.

That complication is ameliorated to 1:5000 simply by being vaccinated. The link has previously been posted by me.

[Scott]

Off-topic deflection, baiting, bickering post and replies removed.  

 

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Same with long term effects of living unhealthy if doesn't kill you within a few years, once diagnosed. 

So, in both cases, people are behaving negligently in a way that endangers their health. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

 

And of course you ignore the fact that those life endangering behaviors are very difficult to give up because of the immediate reward they deliver, whereas not getting vaccinated not so much.

[Chomper Higgot]

51 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So, in both cases, people are behaving negligently in a way that endangers their health. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

 

And of course you ignore the fact that those life endangering behaviors are very difficult to give up because of the immediate reward they deliver, whereas not getting vaccinated not so much.

The lifestyle choices of smoking and unhealthy diet share a common cause with many of the anti-vaccine arguments.

 

They are both rooted in the deliberate use of misinformation to convince people to make choices that place their own health at risk.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[blackprince]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The lifestyle choices of smoking and unhealthy diet share a common cause with many of the anti-vaccine arguments.

 

They are both rooted in the deliberate use of misinformation to convince people to make choices that place their own health at risk.

An oversimplification.

 

Many smokers and drinkers understand the risks. But they get pleasure from their habits. And of course it's been accepted for decades that moderate drinking can be good for the heart, it certainly reduces stress and increases sociability.

 

We have also heard from non-vaxxers (not anti-vaxxers) here who mitigate the risks of covid transmission via masks and distancing.

 

And as we know from the stats in the UK, as the number of people vaxxed increases, the number of vaxxed-to-vaxxed transmissions increases. This is surely obvious enough to be called "common sense".

 

Reducing everything to over-simplistic binary splits is not conducive to understanding complexity, or to winning others over to a particular point of view.

 

There is a small hard core of militant anti-vax, anthropomorphic climate change denying, pro smoking lobbyists, pro fossil fuel lobbyists. But it is just a small hard core.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

28 minutes ago, blackprince said:

An oversimplification.

 

Many smokers and drinkers understand the risks. But they get pleasure from their habits. And of course it's been accepted for decades that moderate drinking can be good for the heart, it certainly reduces stress and increases sociability.

 

We have also heard from non-vaxxers (not anti-vaxxers) here who mitigate the risks of covid transmission via masks and distancing.

 

And as we know from the stats in the UK, as the number of people vaxxed increases, the number of vaxxed-to-vaxxed transmissions increases. This is surely obvious enough to be called "common sense".

 

Reducing everything to over-simplistic binary splits is not conducive to understanding complexity, or to winning others over to a particular point of view.

 

There is a small hard core of militant anti-vax, anthropomorphic climate change denying, pro smoking lobbyists, pro fossil fuel lobbyists. But it is just a small hard core.

 

Well you haven’t disputed the part deliberate misinformation plays in creating behaviors in people that increase risks to their own health.

 

The reason of course being, misinformation is a driver to these things.

 

The relevance here is the use of other people’s ‘life style diseases’ which are rooted in deliberate misinformation being used as an argument of anti-vaccin, itself largely rooted in deliberate misinformation.

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[blackprince]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Well you haven’t disputed the part deliberate misinformation plays in creating behaviors in people that increase risks to their own health.

 

The reason of course being, misinformation is a driver to these things.

 

The relevance here is the use of other people’s ‘life style diseases’ which are rooted in deliberate misinformation being used as an argument of anti-vaccin, itself largely rooted in deliberate misinformation.

 

I'm not unaware of your reference, but you seem to be unaware or deliberately refusing to understand legitimate alternative narratives.

 

As I've posted many times now, this is a specific problem with parts of the west. It's not a problem outside the developed world - the problem in the undeveloped world is lack of vaccines due to the west's hoarding and failure to honour its pledge to vaxx the world. I guess you are aware of the Covax programme.

 

Also this problem is not significant in the UK for example or Israel. Germany and France have historically been vaccine hesitant, it's not a covid specific or AfD specific or Front National specific issue (or whatever Le Pen's group is called now). In fact I'd say the problem of highly politicised anti-vaxx militancy is largely a US issue.

 

I'll come back to a key point. Liberalism is about tolerance and diversity of opinion. I have no objection if people wish to become militant progressives, after all I'm a Liberal (of about half a century's standing) - I accept they have the right to their views, but a militant progressive is not a Liberal.

 

I recently posted a Dylan song about immigrants in response to a thread about "expats" in Thailand - "I Pity the Poor Immigrant".

 

Right now I'm thinking of another Dylan song "With God on Our Side". Of course, Bob's lyrics are notoriously and often deliberately obscure, but I always read that song as being about injustices sanctified by having God on Our Side, and yes we all know that US evangelicals are notorious for that, but it seems to me that a growing number of online self-styled "Liberals" now are too.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by blackprince

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, blackprince said:

I'm not unaware of your reference, but you seem to be unaware or deliberately refusing to understand legitimate alternative narratives.

 

As I've posted many times now, this is a specific problem with parts of the west. It's not a problem outside the developed world - the problem in the undeveloped world is lack of vaccines due to the west's hoarding and failure to honour its pledge to vaxx the world. I guess you are aware of the Covax programme.

 

Also this problem is not significant in the UK for example or Israel. Germany and France have historically been vaccine hesitant, it's not a covid specific or AfD specific or Front National specific issue (or whatever Le Pen's group is called now). In fact I'd say the problem of highly politicised anti-vaxx militancy is largely a US issue.

 

I'll come back to a key point. Liberalism is about tolerance and diversity of opinion. I have no objection if people wish to become militant progressives, after all I'm a Liberal (of about half a century's standing) - I accept they have the right to their views, but a militant progressive is not a Liberal.

 

I recently posted a Dylan song about immigrants in resposnse to a thread about "expats" in Thailand - "I Pity the Poor Immigrant".

 

Right now I'm thinking of another Dylan song "With God on Our Side". Of course, Bob's lyrics are notoriously and often deliberately obscure, but I always read that song as being about injustices sanctified by having God on Our Side, and yes we all know that US evangelicals are notorious for that, but it seems to me that a growing number of online self-styled "Liberals" now are too.

 

 

 

 

It is not a necessary or defining characteristic of liberalism to tolerate lies and misinformation, challenging lies and misinformation does not strip anyone of their ‘liberal credentials’.

 

 

 

 

[blackprince]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

It is not a necessary or defining characteristic of liberalism to tolerate lies and misinformation, challenging lies and misinformation does not strip anyone of their ‘liberal credentials’.

 

 

 

 

I have never said that a defining point of Liberalism is to tolerate lies and misinformation. In fact I said quite the opposite in a post that you responded to earlier today.

 

But your reply here clearly indicates an enthusiasm for misattributing and/or misquoting others, to suit an agenda.

 

I have noticed this trait often in militant "progressives", but it's definitely not a Liberal trait.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

12 minutes ago, blackprince said:

I have never said that a defining point of Liberalism is to tolerate lies and misinformation. In fact I said quite the opposite in a post that you responded to earlier today.

 

But your reply here clearly indicates an enthusiasm for misattributing and/or misquoting others, to suit an agenda.

 

I have noticed this trait often in militant "progressives", but it's definitely not a Liberal trait.

 

I trust you’ll understand when I say I regard your repetitive comparisons of myself and other liberal members in general to ‘militant progressives’ as both baiting and a personal attack. 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

28 minutes ago, blackprince said:

I'm not unaware of your reference, but you seem to be unaware or deliberately refusing to understand legitimate alternative narratives.

 

As I've posted many times now, this is a specific problem with parts of the west. It's not a problem outside the developed world - the problem in the undeveloped world is lack of vaccines due to the west's hoarding and failure to honour its pledge to vaxx the world. I guess you are aware of the Covax programme.

 

Also this problem is not significant in the UK for example or Israel. Germany and France have historically been vaccine hesitant, it's not a covid specific or AfD specific or Front National specific issue (or whatever Le Pen's group is called now). In fact I'd say the problem of highly politicised anti-vaxx militancy is largely a US issue.

 

I'll come back to a key point. Liberalism is about tolerance and diversity of opinion. I have no objection if people wish to become militant progressives, after all I'm a Liberal (of about half a century's standing) - I accept they have the right to their views, but a militant progressive is not a Liberal.

 

I recently posted a Dylan song about immigrants in response to a thread about "expats" in Thailand - "I Pity the Poor Immigrant".

 

Right now I'm thinking of another Dylan song "With God on Our Side". Of course, Bob's lyrics are notoriously and often deliberately obscure, but I always read that song as being about injustices sanctified by having God on Our Side, and yes we all know that US evangelicals are notorious for that, but it seems to me that a growing number of online self-styled "Liberals" now are too.

 

Vaccine hesitancy is not restricted to developed countries, its evident in Africa and Asia:

 

The Next Challenge to Vaccinating Africa: Overcoming Skepticism

 

Just days before the Omicron variant was first detected, health officials in South Africa turned away shipments of doses from Pfizer-BioNTech and Johnson & Johnson, worried that their stockpile of 16 million shots might spoil amid insufficient demand.

 

“There’s no doubt that vaccine hesitancy is a factor in the rollout of vaccines,” said Dr. Matshidiso Moeti, the Africa director of the World Health Organization. News or rumors of potential side effects, she said, “gets picked out and talked about, and some people become afraid.”

 

And now, there are growing signs in parts of Africa, as well as South Asia, that skepticism or outright hostility toward the Covid vaccines may run deeper than expected, even as the new and possibly more dangerous Omicron variant is spreading.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/01/world/africa/coranavirus-vaccine-hesitancy-africa.html

 

 

[blackprince]

17 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Vaccine hesitancy is not restricted to developed countries, its evident in Africa and Asia:

 

The Next Challenge to Vaccinating Africa: Overcoming Skepticism

 

Just days before the Omicron variant was first detected, health officials in South Africa turned away shipments of doses from Pfizer-BioNTech and Johnson & Johnson, worried that their stockpile of 16 million shots might spoil amid insufficient demand.

 

“There’s no doubt that vaccine hesitancy is a factor in the rollout of vaccines,” said Dr. Matshidiso Moeti, the Africa director of the World Health Organization. News or rumors of potential side effects, she said, “gets picked out and talked about, and some people become afraid.”

 

And now, there are growing signs in parts of Africa, as well as South Asia, that skepticism or outright hostility toward the Covid vaccines may run deeper than expected, even as the new and possibly more dangerous Omicron variant is spreading.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/01/world/africa/coranavirus-vaccine-hesitancy-africa.html

 

 

I've already covered this point several times.

 

The key issue NOW for developing countries is lack of vaccines due to the west's hoarding and failure to honour their Covax pledge. This issue is never raised here despite being discussed in the liberal press in the UK for over a year.

 

Vaccine hesitancy may well become a limiting factor in the future in the developing world, but it isn't right now.

 

In fact I posted a link (twice) from the NYT a few days ago stating that the issue now in SA is "over supply" - ie SA does not have the facilities to get the available vaccines into people's arms.

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, blackprince said:

I've already covered this point several times.

 

The key issue NOW for developing countries is lack of vaccines due to the west's hoarding and failure to honour their Covax pledge. This issue is never raised here despite being discussed in the liberal press in the UK for over a year.

 

Vaccine hesitancy may well become a limiting factor in the future in the developing world, but it isn't right now.

 

In fact I posted a link (twice) from the NYT a few days ago stating that the issue now in SA is "over supply" - ie SA does not have the facilities to get the available vaccines into people's arms.

 

Well you can cover it as much as you want, I tend to go with what the WHO Dr. Matshidiso Moeti, the Africa director of the World Health Organization stated.

[blackprince]

34 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I trust you’ll understand when I say I regard your repetitive comparisons of myself and other liberal members in general to ‘militant progressives’ as both baiting and a personal attack. 

 

 

It's strange that you regard my descriptions of militant "progressives" as baiting, when a large number of your posts are openly derisive of people whose views you disagree with.

 

As I've posted several times in the last hour, a hallmark of Liberalism is acceptance of diversity of opinion and tolerance. I rarely see this in the militant "progressives" here. As I've also said in the last hour, I have nothing against militant "progressives". As a Liberal of half  century's standing I am quite happy to tolerate their views; but their methods of engagement seem to be little better than those of the evangelicals.

[blackprince]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Well you can cover it as much as you want, I tend to go with what the WHO Dr. Matshidiso Moeti, the Africa director of the World Health Organization stated.

Your headline says "The Next Challenge". That's exactly what I'm saying. It's not a current challenge, not even in SA which has greater vaccine penetration than any other African nation as of last week.

Edited December 4, 2021 by blackprince

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, blackprince said:

Your headline says "The Next Challenge". That's exactly what I'm saying. It's not a current challenge, not even in SA which has greater vaccine penetration than any other African nation as of last week.

Its possible to read past the headline to the actual news as well.

 

“There’s no doubt that vaccine hesitancy is a factor in the rollout of vaccines,” said Dr. Matshidiso Moeti, the Africa director of the World Health Organization"

 

Just days before the Omicron variant was first detected, health officials in South Africa turned away shipments of doses from Pfizer-BioNTech and Johnson & Johnson, worried that their stockpile of 16 million shots might spoil amid insufficient demand.

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, blackprince said:

Your headline says "The Next Challenge". That's exactly what I'm saying. It's not a current challenge, not even in SA which has greater vaccine penetration than any other African nation as of last week.

South Africa has a very low rate of vaccinations. Better than other African countries, but worse than many others.

 

And Omicron seems to be able to reinfect easily.

[blackprince]

4 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

South Africa has a very low rate of vaccinations. Better than other African countries, but worse than many others.

 

And Omicron seems to be able to reinfect easily.

Exactly Jeff, as I said 2 days ago. If memory serves SA had vaccinated around 30%, higher than other African countries. Vaccine hesitancy has not yet kicked in in SA yet (though it may do), the issue is currently "over supply" according to the NYT, as I've referenced 3 times.

 

Yes Omicron seems to transmit more easily but it also seems to be less harmful. Let's wait for the experts to deliberate.

 

All my views are data driven, so I'll wait for the confirmed data.

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

11 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

South Africa has a very low rate of vaccinations. Better than other African countries, but worse than many others.

 

And Omicron seems to be able to reinfect easily.

The good news is that since Omicron appeared and started its spread it seems to have spurned them on a bit to get the shots, after a decline in vaccinations since Sept, the last week has suddenly seen an uptick with people wanting to get jabbed. The supply is there they just need to take it.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=429907215427698&id=100625955022494

Edited December 4, 2021 by Bkk Brian

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, blackprince said:

I've already covered this point several times.

 

The key issue NOW for developing countries is lack of vaccines due to the west's hoarding and failure to honour their Covax pledge. This issue is never raised here despite being discussed in the liberal press in the UK for over a year.

 

Vaccine hesitancy may well become a limiting factor in the future in the developing world, but it isn't right now.

 

In fact I posted a link (twice) from the NYT a few days ago stating that the issue now in SA is "over supply" - ie SA does not have the facilities to get the available vaccines into people's arms.

 

You sure about that? Is that the article that said this?:

The Next Challenge to Vaccinating Africa: Overcoming Skepticism

"And now, there are growing signs in parts of Africa, as well as South Asia, that skepticism or outright hostility toward the Covid vaccines may run deeper than expected, even as the new and possibly more dangerous Omicron variant is spreading. In Africa, at least three countries have now reported Omicron cases: South Africa, Botswana and, on Wednesday, Nigeria."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/01/world/africa/coranavirus-vaccine-hesitancy-africa.htm

 

The article also notes that White South Africans are even more skeptical. Part of the reason being mistrust of the Black led government and the other part due to being influenced by American covid conspiracists:

"That is in part because of mistrust of the Black-led government, but also because American Covid conspiracists have found wide reach among white South Africans on social media, according to Mr. Vick of Covid Comms."

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by placeholder