Heat Issues

[meadish_sweetball]

Now that I managed to put together my new system thanks to all your help, I loaded up SpeedFan and Sandra to check my system.

It turns out it was running quite hot - the CPU was at 56-57 degrees Celsius and the case temperature sensor reported 46-47 - at idle. One of the hard disks, the one with XP on, was at 42 as well.

Also, SpeedFan warned me about the rpm of one of the case fans being too low - just 1300 rpm.

So I thought it might have to do with me not having cleaned the heatsink or mainboard since I bought it. I found removal instructions for my CPU cooler and decided to remove it. And I did - took away a fair bit of gunk on it by blowing on it and using a cotton bud.

The thing is, I noticed the CPU cooler was attached to the CPU with a thermal compound and now that is broken.

Since I understand this compound plays an important part in dissipating the heat from the CPU onto the heatsink, I am wondering whether I now have to clean away the old thermal compound and replace it with new one before I can use the computer again - or won't it be necessary?

Cheers again in advance.

[Mid]

strictly speaking , do you have to , no ,

should you , YES .

my cpu runs 50 + constantly and number crunching will throttle it at 70 ............ i know , no a/c ...........

however your case temp is well above anything i see , mine sits @ mid 20's .

[meadish_sweetball]

I noticed at the bottom of the case under the graphics card, it is nice and cool, but above the graphics card is where the heat is, in particular near the PSU fan and the CPU.

Will post a few pics of what my case looks like so you can see.

The system is based on an ASUS P5GD2-X mainboard, and the CPU is a Pentium 4, 2.66 Ghz, Socket 775 LGA using the original CPU cooler from Intel.

This is what the case looks like on the outside. It's a CoolerMaster 330 case.

Here's an overview of the inside of the case. The top hard disk to the right is the system disk, an 80GB Seagate Barracuda. The lower hard disk is a Western Digital 250GB. There is a 12 cm fan in the front that takes air from outside and blows it onto the hard disks. I bought this fan separately: it's a Thermaltake Thunderblade A1973. (The black rear 12 cm fan came with the case).

This is the hottest part of the case. I put my hand in different parts of the case, and the difference between this area and the area underneath the VGA card, where it is nice and cool, is pretty amazing. The PSU is an Enermax Liberty 500W.

This is the cool area. The VGA card is an XFX GeForce 8600GT 256MB.

So I take it it will at least not be dangerous to use the computer again even though obviously the thermal compound contact between the CPU and the heatsink will now not be as efficient as before?

[mac.wheeler]

Now that I managed to put together my new system thanks to all your help, I loaded up SpeedFan and Sandra to check my system.

It turns out it was running quite hot - the CPU was at 56-57 degrees Celsius and the case temperature sensor reported 46-47 - at idle. One of the hard disks, the one with XP on, was at 42 as well.

Also, SpeedFan warned me about the rpm of one of the case fans being too low - just 1300 rpm.

So I thought it might have to do with me not having cleaned the heatsink or mainboard since I bought it. I found removal instructions for my CPU cooler and decided to remove it. And I did - took away a fair bit of gunk on it by blowing on it and using a cotton bud.

The thing is, I noticed the CPU cooler was attached to the CPU with a thermal compound and now that is broken.

Since I understand this compound plays an important part in dissipating the heat from the CPU onto the heatsink, I am wondering whether I now have to clean away the old thermal compound and replace it with new one before I can use the computer again - or won't it be necessary?

Cheers again in advance.

Neither of those temperatures are excessive but they are a tad high, my guess is bad airflow in the new case, how many intake and how many outake fans do you have?

[A_Traveller]

Forgive me you may have posted this before, but what is the graphics card case etc.

Regards

[Rice_King]

Here's a tutorial from Arctic Silver (thermal compound) on cleaning and installing a CPU cooler on new and previously used CPU / Cooler setup.

[Tywais]

Since I understand this compound plays an important part in dissipating the heat from the CPU onto the heatsink, I am wondering whether I now have to clean away the old thermal compound and replace it with new one before I can use the computer again - or won't it be necessary?

Cheers again in advance.

You should remove all the old compound (I use alcohol) and apply new compound. Thin coat, not heavy and reseat. The case temperature seems strange. Re-check the fans, the rear one should be blowing out and the front one blowing into the case. When you mentioned mounting the front fan and screws too long, something didn't sound right. Re-check it. I have a similar case and cpu & mainboard temps are 35 in a non-air room.

[meadish_sweetball]

Please see the pictures I added in my post above.

There is no arrow indication on the transparent front fan I mounted to suggest which way the air flows. I understand that usually the air flows in the direction of the sticker on the fan though? Is this correct?

As for the screws, unlike the large threaded screws that bore into the plastic of the fan for the fans I had on my previous case, this Thermaltake fan came with screws with small heads (small enough to just pass through the mounting holes on the front of the case, and stoppers to be mounted on the opposite side of the fan. I guess I could mount the fan with large threaded standard fan screws from the previous case, but it is not likely that would be the main problem though, is it?

Could the effect I am experiencing be due to the front fan being mounted to blow air out of the case instead of into it?

[Mid]

Could the effect I am experiencing be due to the front fan being mounted to blow air out of the case instead of into it?

yep

[A_Traveller]

Looking at this, the fan at the front should pull air into the case, and the fan at the rear should pump air out, creating a flow into which the CPU fan can push it's flow into and be disbursed, again from the rear.

The GPU fan is blowing downwards, I believe, therefore, if possible might be worth moving the card below it down a few slots. One other thing to note is that the cables could do with some tiding which would improve air flow.

Regards

[Tywais]

Could the effect I am experiencing be due to the front fan being mounted to blow air out of the case instead of into it?

If they are both blowing out, definitely would be a problem. There would effectively be no cross flow of air across the other components (essentially zero pressure differential. I would take the side covers off and put a piece of paper in the air stream to test it since getting your fingers in there is pretty tight. Or pop the front cover off and check it.

[meadish_sweetball]

What about the direction of the airflow? On one side of the fan, there is the sticker. On the other side, the hub of the fan is perforated and you can see the copper wire inside.

Now that I have looked inside the case I think if the air does flow in the direction of the sticker, I have indeed placed the fan in the wrong direction...

So can I do a test drive to see if this is so once I have turned the fan around, even without applying new thermal compound? The reason I'm asking is because I am not sure I have time to drive down to Panthip today to buy thermal compound.

[Tywais]

So can I do a test drive to see if this is so once I have turned the fan around, even without applying new thermal compound? The reason I'm asking is because I am not sure I have time to drive down to Panthip today to buy thermal compound.

Just keep close watch of the cpu temperature. If you have removed the sink/fan and placed it back with the old compound, good chance the temperature may spike, especially under load. That is probably the one thing I am most careful about and that is making sure the old compound is removed and a nice shiny surface shows on cpu and heatsink, and careful adding/spreading the new compound.

You should be safe up to about 65 degrees but wouldn't run for extended periods.

[Mid]

no need to test , you've got your answer ,

be safe and wait till tomorrow , it's beer o'clock anyway .

[mac.wheeler]

Something I notice about the case and the position of the video card is that there is no air being directly blown onto the GPU.

A GPU arguably creates more heat than the CPU when it comes down to system temp, your setup is blowing air across the case back to front (or front to back whichever way your fans are running). That air will run along the video card, but no air will hit the hot surfaces, maybe a side mounted fan blowing directly onto the video card? Either that or a top mounted extraction fan over the video card that will suck air over the card and expel it as hot air at the top of the case.

[Tywais]

This is my case, also a Cooler Master (Centurian) with the side cover off and with it on. I modified the side cover to add an additional 120mm fan for overclocking reasons. The wires have been pushed as far away from the mainboard as possible inside the extra space in the drive cubicle. As I mentioned, it is running at 35/36 mb/cpu (core 0 and 1 at 33). Room temperature around 30. My drives are at 38 degrees (both), GPU at 54 (out of a max of over 100 allowed for the GPU).

As you can see the case is nearly identical. There are 4 120mm fans running, front - back - side and the power supply. Just did a test by blocking off the side vent/fan and there was about 1 degree change in temperatures, so not a big advantage it seems.

[Firefoxx]

I have a full tower case, and my motherboard temp is around 45, while my CPU temp is around 50. Has 4 120mm fans for equal air flow. I'm not really surprised at the temps, since the case is packed (I have only 1 free bay left) with 7200rpm harddrives that get HOT, and the intake fans blow air directly across them, so it's pre-heated air that reaches the mainboard. I'm not concerned, as long as it's stable.

The Intel stock cpu coolers aren't the best choice. They come with a fairly thick application of thermal goo, are quite loud, and don't actually cool that well. Of course, they're free. The best ones are the really big ones (that take 120mm fans) from Thermaltake (ultra 120) and the Tuniq Tower. They're not cheap, at around 2000 a piece, but they do a much better job, with less noise.

[Tywais]

The best ones are the really big ones (that take 120mm fans) from Thermaltake (ultra 120) and the Tuniq Tower. They're not cheap, at around 2000 a piece, but they do a much better job, with less noise.

You mean like this (1kg mass)? That was on my dual core AMD for overclocking. Curious as to what CPU you are using, I get nervous with CPU idle of 50 degrees. But of course depends on the CPU. Yeah, with as many drives as you have - internal ambient must get high. Any chance of a photo of the 'guts' of your tower?

[Firefoxx]

Like this.

You'll notice that there are ten harddrives in total, and each is a toaster oven in its own right. The efficiency of an air CPU cooler is not really how low it can get your CPU in relation to room temperature, but how low it can get your CPU in relation to the mainboard temperature, since that's where it gets its air from. Currently the delta between the mainboard temp and the CPU temp is around 5 degrees, which is good enough for me, as the system is stable. Even with the air con on at 27c, the mainboard doesn't get any lower than 42c. I don't want to make a side-panel hole since the acrylic glass looks too nice to touch and there wouldn't be enough clearance for a fan anyways.

The CPU cooler is a Thermalright 120 with an industrial 120mm full sized metal fan (the heatsink didn't come with a fan, and can actually be used without one). It looks like the fan isn't moving since I used flash and the fan is running at low RPM (silent). Total weight is nearly 2KG. The fan is a Sanyo Denki ball bearing, and will probably outlast me.

And yes, I know that the wiring isn't good, but I'm too lazy to clean it up right now. I just finished finalizing the system a couple days ago, and might still make changes to it. It's on 24/7.

Latest addition was a Samsung 226BW 22" LCD. Me Like MUCH.

[Tywais]

And yes, I know that the wiring isn't good, but I'm too lazy to clean it up right now. I just finished finalizing the system a couple days ago, and might still make changes to it. It's on 24/7.

Latest addition was a Samsung 226BW 22" LCD. Me Like MUCH.

Very nice Firefox, a very busy box you have there and now can understand the temperatures. How much for the Samsung, was thinking of expanding my monitor array?

[Firefoxx]

The Samsung is around 12,100, and supports HDCP. The models sold in Thailand seem to be only the "C" (Chimei) type, so "S" type. I really don't see how the C type is inferior.

[meadish_sweetball]

The best ones are the really big ones (that take 120mm fans) from Thermaltake (ultra 120) and the Tuniq Tower. They're not cheap, at around 2000 a piece, but they do a much better job, with less noise.

You mean like this (1kg mass)? That was on my dual core AMD for overclocking. Curious as to what CPU you are using, I get nervous with CPU idle of 50 degrees. But of course depends on the CPU. Yeah, with as many drives as you have - internal ambient must get high. Any chance of a photo of the 'guts' of your tower?

Very interesting to see examples of other people's rigs. So what heatsink is that in your picture, I assume not the Thermaltake ultra 120 as that is much higher? The Tuniq tower, or something else?

I am considering changing CPU cooler from the standard Intel one to the Thermalright ultra 120, since I have to go get thermal compound anyway and might as well buy it at the same time - do you think my Pentium 4 2.66 GHz would run ok with the Thermalright ultra 120 even without the extra fan as in your rig, Firefoxx?

The exhaust fan on Tywais's picture looks like a Thermaltake silent fan, the type I originally intended to buy... instead I ended up with the karaoke tricolor one. Not too happy about that now as sound level was one reason for changing cases and getting a new one, but apart from getting rid of the screech of the worn out cheap Sabel fans on the other case, the sound volume is the same with the new case - although admittedly, it is now a more pleasant whoooooosh instead of a wrrrrraaaaaaaek as I used to have.

The cheaper option would be to get thermal compound and attempt to clean up the old goo and apply the new one myself, but I am thinking if I buy the Thermalright CPU cooler, they will probably agree to install it for me for free... saving me the hassle, and I could watch what they do and learn how it works for next time.

Anyways, if I do choose to keep the old CPU cooler, do you think I could make the cooler more efficient by careful cleaning and adding a smaller amount of thermal compound this time around?

I notice that the compound already on the heatsink formed a perfect circle under the heatsink. Is it necessary to apply it like that, or would it be ok to just squeeze out a small amount on top of the CPU cover and then let it attach itself to the heatsink as it is screwed on?

Sorry for all the newbie questions, but I am really interested in learning more about this.

[brianinbangkok]

What P4 2.66 are you running Meatball ?

The older P4's (about 2003 models) did run a lot hotter then the newer generations , I was also kinda worried when I noticed my P4 2.8 type 511 running at over 50 C but a little bit of Google research showed that it was normal for this generation of P4's.

The product code on your P4 or on if you still have it the original box is a good way to start you research.

I have a P4 511 and it runs stable for over a year at 55 deg , with original cooler.

I got a Celeron 2.66 a few weeks ago that runs at 45 C , in a box with less cooling , but they seemed to have replaced the fan on the CPU cooler , this one runs a lot faster then the one on the P4 , what I mean the max rev is higher on this one.

My P4 2.8 http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sspec=sl8u4

My Celeron 2.66 http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sspec=sl98v

both rated 84 watts thermal design power and thermal specs 67.7 deg C.

A newer P 4 3.0GHz type 930 http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sspec=sl95x

Thermal Design Power: 95W

Thermal Specification: 63.4°C

Runs cooler but does need a bigger cooler to start with.

A newer more powerfull Core 2 Duo runs at thermal spec 60.1 C

http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sspec=sl9s7

Of course these are not the actual temps you will normaly find these CPU's runnning at but its just to show you , some older CPU run hotter then the newer onces.

One more thing is the temp sensors on motherboards are not real precise.

I had 2 systems at work same CPU and cooler and case but on other motherboards

One was always running 10 deg cooler then the other one in the same room , kinda unlogical except after a bios upgrade on one board they showed the same temp

Edited June 9, 2007 by brianinbangkok

[Firefoxx]

You might get away with not having a fan on the ultra 120... but then again you might not. The fact that the case fan and the PSU fan are both nearby generating airflow helps. Both the Tuniq and the Thermalright (and actually most big heatsinks) require removal of the mainboard to install (they need a bracket on the underside of the board), so yes, you should have the shop install it if you're not up to it. One reason why I chose the huge metal fan was because I could run it at low voltage, and hence low noise, and still get good cooling.

The older P4's run relatively hot compared to the new Core2's. Their stock fans are also LOUD, especially at load. Again, the temperature of the CPU is affected by the temperature of the air around it, namely the mainboard temp.

The only Thermaltake case fan that I'd want is the 120mm black one with the speed control. That's the only one with ball bearings. Although my 3 120mm Thermaltake case fans (with the blue LEDs, came with the case) are still running fine, I've had both included Thermaltake 80mm case fans fail on me (in less than a year, typical of cheap fans, including PSU fans), and I replaced them with ball bearing Sanyo Denki fans.

[meadish_sweetball]

Here's what I can get out of the CPU box:

P4-506-B3

2.66GHz

533 MHz FSB

1MB L2 Cache

Requires Platform Compatibility Guide 04B or 04A Board

LGA775 Pkg

Intel EM64T

MM # 872643

FPO/BATCH # 3546B190

VERSION # D19446-005 1.4V max.

PACK DATE 12/13/2005

Made in Costa Rica

Does that tell you anything?

[Mid]

Intel® Processor Identification Utility

[Tywais]

Very interesting to see examples of other people's rigs. So what heatsink is that in your picture, I assume not the Thermaltake ultra 120 as that is much higher? The Tuniq tower, or something else?

Its a Thermaltake Blue Orb II.

I am considering changing CPU cooler from the standard Intel one to the Thermaltake ultra 120, since I have to go get thermal compound anyway and might as well buy it at the same time - do you think my Pentium 4 2.66 GHz would run ok with the Thermaltake ultra 120 even without the extra fan as in your rig, Firefoxx?

To be honest I don't see a need for you to add one except if you want a quieter box. My third home computer is also a Pentium 4 2.66 GHz and is in the exact same case/model that you have and there are no temperature issues. I really believe your main problem is the heat sink compound now being damaged and not symmetrical distribution anymore. It is important that a good compound is used and put on properly. Here are the instructions on installing the heat sink and compound > Arctic Silver

The exhaust fan on Tywais's picture looks like a Thermaltake silent fan, the type I originally intended to buy...

Yes.

Anyways, if I do choose to keep the old CPU cooler, do you think I could make the cooler more efficient by careful cleaning and adding a smaller amount of thermal compound this time around?

See above. You need no more then a drop about the size of a rice seed. I use a credit card to spread it evenly. After cleaning the heatsink base and the top of the CPU, be sure you do not touch either with your fingers, the oil will create hot spots and efficiency loss. I actually used those plastic disposable gloves allowing me to smooth the compound out better and protecting from prints. Yeah I know, I'm fussy.

[brianinbangkok]

HI Meatball ur CPU => http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sspec=sl8pl

sSpec Number: SL8PL

CPU Speed: 2.66 GHz

PCG: 04A

Bus Speed: 533 MHz

Bus/Core Ratio: 20

L2 Cache Size: 1 MB

L2 Cache Speed: 2.66 GHz

Package Type: LGA775

Manufacturing Technology: 90 nm

Core Stepping: G1

CPUID String: 0F49h

Thermal Design Power: 84W

Thermal Specification: 67.7°C

Core Voltage: 1.25V-1.400V

67,7 C Thermal Specification: The thermal specification shown is the maximum case temperature at the maximum Thermal Design Power (TDP) value for that processor. It is measured at the geometric center on the topside of the processor integrated heat spreader. For processors without integrated heat spreaders such as mobile processors, the thermal specification is referred to as the junction temperature (Tj). The maximum junction temperature is defined by an activation of the processor Intel® Thermal Monitor. The Intel Thermal Monitor’s automatic mode is used to indicate that the maximum TJ has been reached.

Its a 90 nm Prescott CPU => old type , runs hot , its normal

Take a look at this seach , plenty of people running Prescott CPU and all of em HOT.

http://www.google.co.th/search?hl=en&q...n+hot&meta=

Just reinstall ur heatsink and make sure ur fan in the front of case sucks air in and the one at the back blows it out the case.

Edited June 9, 2007 by brianinbangkok

[Mid]

Take a look at this seach , plenty of people running Prescott CPU and all of em HOT.

as i said above , add me to that list ,

there like a toaster ..........................

[Tywais]

Its a 90 nm Prescott CPU => old type , runs hot , its normal

Yeah, didn't see it was a Prescott. Some information to look at:

Assembling PCs with Prescotts

Typical Assembling Problems