A Sad Story About A Very Elderly, Lonely, Englishman.

[Jet Gorgon]

I have never seen such caustic remarks before, altho General Forum has become full of them of late. As was pointed out for the numskulls several times, Mobi asked for advice in finding a housekeeper/carer for this man, nothing more. Mobi is a true gentleman and likely the old man is, too; old age, injuries and illness trample the best of us. The guy has no home in the UK. Send him back to a cold water flat in Brixton, where he knows nobody and naught, so he can get his full pension and wait a year for a medical? Reality checks, please.

I'm sorry, Mobi, I have no info to help the man. I just had to reply in your support because the trolls on this thread are truly patpong trash. Disgusting.

[suiging]

Over the past year I have read nothing but kind, insightful posts form Mobi. He has brought topics to the Pattaya Board that have always been informative and at the end of each thread have garnered support for a worthy cause or left the reader thinking or contemplating an issue which may have past them bye.

He does not deserve to be personally attacked by some cyber child hidden away no doubt in his Mommy's study, sucking his thumb before the next school day and commenting on a country or topic it is beyond his wildest dreams to imagine ( or at least to experience, only after he is big enough for long trousers ).

Beware cyber warriors, he is a founder member of the PDL ( Pattaya Defence League ). All you naughty little snides will inevitably end up in a dark alley in South Patters someday. Prey you have a good friend like him to help, if ( and when ) you do.

[terryp]

To all out there.

Please don't think I'm being pessimistic here but............

Growing old and frail is sh!te.

I should pray it won't happen to me but I know it will so I leave out the prayers.

I suppose I'll lose my sense of humour too and become a whinging old git to anyone prepared to listen.

It'll be hard to keep a smile on my face when I have to beg for help to open jars and awkward packaging.

Or to get the key into my door lock with trembling hands.

Because you lose all dignity and that's the worst loss of all.

It's the same inevitable road which we're all travelling; some just started earlier than others.

How do I know all this?

I watched my my mother, a strong and resolute woman inexorably become a basket case before she died aged 88.

And I'm now watching the same process devour my mother in law, also aged 88.

Have a heart for the poor old bugger, all you "jump" protagonists and "don't give a sh!t" brigade.

Absolutely 100% correct, we all get old, more stubborn & lazy…

Let’s not forget that there are plenty of old people like this in every country of the world …Inc the UK…where some suggest he should return to?

The next decade is going to show how many oldies are in Pattaya especially just waiting to die

[Jai Dee]

Growing old and frail is sh!te.

.

.

.

Because you lose all dignity and that's the worst loss of all.

Very true.

And I hope that some of the posters in this thread can post some sensible and dignified comments, rather than a lot of rubbish.

If you are thinking about replying in this thread, before you do, please go back and read the OP and respond accordingly... or if you have nothing to contribute, it would be better if you said nothing at all.

[LinkPopularity]

you know what bothers me ... that "all good intentions aside" ... you want to help, sure, but what about the maid ?

I'm serious, do you think she'll get a satisfying job ?

the most di9sgusting remarks was about the Filipino maid who would probably do it for just 3.500 Bath

most of the people here seem to think that poor people have to remain poor and that they are here for us to be exploited !

again, I feel more sympathy for the maid to be, then the old man ... I'm not saying he should jump or so, but I don't support the whole concept of buying a conscience on the expense of that poor woman, who will hardly be able to get by with the ridiculous low amount of money she'll get for cleaning up somebody else's mess ... somebody who did it to him self !

he knowns about the frozen pension and go back to the UK every few years, I don't know that law, but is it enough for him to go to Australia to fix that problem? anyway, he's responsible for the consequences of his actions, not the underpaid maid, who's obviously to most of you people not 'human' enough to be even considered worthy of any mercy what so ever

Don't you read the blatant racism towards the poor woman between the lines ? I do !

How many of you 'goodies' even thought about her situation before I mentioned it ?

[November Rain]

^^ Link,

The hypothetical "poor woman" - we are not even talking about an actual person here - has a choice in whether she takes the job or not. I don't remember anybody talking about enforced slavery here. A filipina is unlikely in the first place, because AFAIK she will need a WP, not something that the old gent could supply, so it would probably need to be a Thai. Why are you feeling so sorry for someone who would probably be happy for some extra cash (if she didn't want the "pittance", she wouldn't take the job). Do you feel sorry for all geriatric nurses? How about those who give up their lives to care for elderly & debilitated members of their family?

Mobi, do you think he needs 24hr care, or just a bit of general housekeeping & cooking at the moment? Getting someone part-time would be a lot cheaper. My Thai helper is part time & she's great, helps with the dogs, cleans & helps with my son. Someone adaptable like her might be ideal.

I'm not sure whether my previous suggestion actually sounded like a suggestion or not, so I'll put it forward again. Possibly check out "Cheshire Homes", I don't know if they could help.

[Mobi]

^^ Link,

The hypothetical "poor woman" - we are not even talking about an actual person here - has a choice in whether she takes the job or not. I don't remember anybody talking about enforced slavery here. A filipina is unlikely in the first place, because AFAIK she will need a WP, not something that the old gent could supply, so it would probably need to be a Thai. Why are you feeling so sorry for someone who would probably be happy for some extra cash (if she didn't want the "pittance", she wouldn't take the job). Do you feel sorry for all geriatric nurses? How about those who give up their lives to care for elderly & debilitated members of their family?

Mobi, do you think he needs 24hr care, or just a bit of general housekeeping & cooking at the moment? Getting someone part-time would be a lot cheaper. My Thai helper is part time & she's great, helps with the dogs, cleans & helps with my son. Someone adaptable like her might be ideal.

I'm not sure whether my previous suggestion actually sounded like a suggestion or not, so I'll put it forward again. Possibly check out "Cheshire Homes", I don't know if they could help.

All this talk about the man mistreating the maid is completely over the top, and unjustified.

He may be the "Victor Mildrew' of Bangkok, and have pissed off all his farang friends, but from what I have seen he knows how to talk to and inter react with Thais, and I am quite sure he would treat any maid with the respect she deserves, and probably better than many Thai employers.

NR, no, he doesn't require 24 hour care - right now he is managing without anyone - he is still self sufficient - just - but is struggling very hard. The maid doesn't have to 'live in' - the room is there if she requires it.

Yes, it's cleaning, general housekeeping, laundry, help with the cooking, and probably helping the old boy to get up and down, and maybe things like finding him a taxi to come into the soi on the rare occasions that he needs to go out.

I thought it might suit some one in somewhat distressed circumstances themeselves - maybe getting on a bit but still healthy and able - possibly from up-country.

No doubt a part time maid would also work.

[LinkPopularity]

no, the whole point is that she doesn't have a choice !

if she doesn't take any kind of low paid job, she has nothing, while he could have a whole lot more money, if he would have taken responsibility for himself !

so, yes, I feel sorry for the majority of the people here who have to work very hard for a very low pay !

[ColPyat]

No doubt a part time maid would also work.

Maybe my suggestion went under all these idiotic remarks. I think a maid is only a short time solution. The problem is that he will very soon need a qualified nurse, and 7000 Baht a month will not cover that. What about hospital care? Very soon he might need some of that as well.

I think a wiser decision would be to bring the case to the attention of one of the many churches here. They have resources, experience, budgets and a network of helpers.

[Mobi]

No doubt a part time maid would also work.

Maybe my suggestion went under all these idiotic remarks. I think a maid is only a short time solution. The problem is that he will very soon need a qualified nurse, and 7000 Baht a month will not cover that. What about hospital care? Very soon he might need some of that as well.

I think a wiser decision would be to bring the case to the attention of one of the many churches here. They have resources, experience, budgets and a network of helpers.

You are quite right of course. I was just thinking that if possible let's deal with the problem right now, and then in the medium term, we could look for other solutions.

Churches are a good idea. I'm not in BKK, but will ask my contacts at the Mercy Mission here in Pattaya if they know of any organisations in BKK that may help .

If anyone has any contacts in this regard please advise.

[November Rain]

no, the whole point is that she doesn't have a choice !

if she doesn't take any kind of low paid job, she has nothing, while he could have a whole lot more money, if he would have taken responsibility for himself !

so, yes, I feel sorry for the majority of the people here who have to work very hard for a very low pay !

Oh, rubbish! My helper earns 5,000 bt a month from me - hardly a king's ransom. 500 bt of that is because she washes (in my machine) the bedding for the dogs (there's a lot of it), 500bt is because she takes my son to & from school every day. So her basic is actually 4,000bt. For that she cleans part time for me on weekdays. She also takes in laundry (seperate business, nothing to do with me). She & her husband have a songthaew, a pick-up & a motorbike, so they're not destitute. She doesn't have to take the low-paid job with me. She does like the extra money & doesn't seem to mind the work - we have a very friendly relationship & she'll always help me out with anything out of the ordinary (like when I got a snake in my kitchen, or when I had a burst water pipe - she's the first person I call). She's great & I think she'd be highly insulted to be though of as downtrodden.

It's a shame this guy is in BKK, Mobi, as I'm sure my helper could find someone ideal for him (probably not wanting to live there, though). I hope someone can help out.

[Maizefarmer]

Four years ago I was introduced to an elderly Englishman who had fallen on hard times, but even in his impoverished circumstances, he was able to survive reasonable well, and made several trips a week to some of the cheaper bars, and take advantage of ‘happy hour’ beer prices, and more importantly, rely on a few old friends to buy him a few.

He was a bit of a crusty old bastard, who had no topic of conversation other than how hard done by he was, and how he lost all his money to his ex wife many years ago, and how his UK pension had been frozen more than 20 years ago (which was his sole source of income) and so on. If you tried to change the subject, he would quickly bring it back to his own misfortunes. He swore he would never return to England, he lived in a small 2 bed apartment in Prakanong, and managed to survive by using the buses, and for the most part, buying fresh food from the market and cooking himself. Being with him was ‘hard going’ but a few did their bit to help.

Fast forward 4 years.

He is now 80, very frail and semi-crippled following a road accident, is now unable to use the buses and is more bitter and twisted than ever. I ran across him in central Bangkok, on one of his rare forays from home, and got him nice and pissed. It seems that he is now totally friendless, as he has lost such friends that he had, by asserting that no-one helped him when he had his accident, and when he meets any of them on one of his rare afternoons out, they never offer to help, or put him in a taxi, or offer him a lift etc etc.

He says that the farang community in Thailand is totally heartless, and the Thais are no better. He is desperate for some home help who can take care of his basic needs, and said he can provide room and board plus 7,000 Baht a month for anyone who could take him on. He told me he has tried to put the word out, but there have been no takers.

He certainly appears to be totally alone now, and his future is very bleak. As I said, he is a difficult old bugger, but he still has all his faculties, and he doesn’t deserve to spend his remaining years like this.

Certainly if he was in England, he would be looked after much better – by both the social services – and – even these days, I believe in most areas the neighbours would look out for persons such as he.

Is he right? Is the farang community here heartless and uncaring? Are the Thais equally heartless and uncaring? Many in his neighbourhood are aware of his circumstances and no-one ever offers to help – not even by giving him a lift the main roads when they see him hobbling along with his cane.

But he will never go home. So what is the solution? Is there one?

I don’t know the answers, but his plight bothers me a lot.

He is not a close friend - in fact I have only met him 2 or 3 times, but I would like to do something, if I can.

And on a practical level, does anyone know of anyone – maybe up country – who may be willing to take care of him? If so, please PM me and we can explore it further.

Help avalible for genuine cases - and the reason why it is not advertised is because of the amount of what can be best described as non-genuine dead-beats - but if he is a genuine case, yes, he will be given all the help he needs. It comes from a group of both Thai and ex-pat citizens (mostly professional long term residents).

I suggest you find out a bit about him and his true circumstances, and then send me a summary by private message, which I will see gets to those who make the decisions. Arrangements will be made to meet up with him ( at his home). Things move fast - it will not drag on for months (though in this case I get the feeling that speed is not important - it is after all of his own free will that he decides to stay here).

Alternatively, you can pass him my contact details - in the first instance via the TV message system, and he can contact me directly - and I'll take it from there.

Just so that it is understood where this is coming from so to speak: genuine versus non-genuine may sound somewhat judgemental - to start with, nothing that disqualifies someone for asking for help: most cases are cases of guys (and girls on the odd occassion) who are on their last legs, have absolutely no recourse to family or friend help, are mentaly ill, have a drug or alcohol problem - and are really best off been back home, and that will be the help they will get. That accounts for I guess about 99% of cases. Health cases - well the rules here are the same as in most countries: turn up at a hospital with a life threatening illness/accident injury, and you will be treated (ability to pay is a non-issue).

This case though sounds very different - the guy needs a long term solution, and clearly sending him back to the UK doesn't appear to be the solution for an 80 yr old who has been here 20 years plus. I take it this "young mans' "visa ran out years ago ( because from what you say regards his cirucmstances, he certainly can't afford to meet the criteria)?

I don't know what can be done - but will give on assurance: he is welcome to ask, and his circumstances will be considered by people who are genuinely caring - and respond to every case they hear of with equal consideration, and respond straight away: he will not be burdened with formalities, paperwork and weeks having wait for an answer.

MF

[v8tfcorty]

i actually heard of a very very similar scenario as per the OP.

old gent living bangkok down on his luck and doing it tough after an accident etc etc..

he too was offering 7000 for a maid/helper, this particular gent was actually put onto a part time nurse, she was keen for the extra money and fitted his requirements to a tee,

the grumpy old git didnt want her ???? go figure

[Jet Gorgon]

That is a good wage, NR, but of course farangs here will ding you for being cheap. Ah, Thailand, only Bt60 for a beer and hey I just bargained my way down to Bt80 for that t-shirt, but look, honey, those poor workers only get Bt100 a day and no dental. Stupid wanklettes.

[Austhaied]

I don't think Sister Joan can help him but may know someone who can.

Whether this bloke deserves his condition or not, show some compassion people..

http://www.sisterjoan.info/elderly.htm

[bendix]

The problem with this thread is that 95% of it is a just a lot of posturing (and, yes, i include myself in that too).

It's very easy to convey the impression of compassion on an internet thread - pick the right words, go with the emotional flow, add your layer of warmth onto previous layers of warmth. Similarly, it's easy to convey the impression of callousness with a flip remark, a smartarse response, a snide reply designed to build on a previous one.

Neither is helpful. Sadly, both are just posturing, so far as the old guy himself is concerned. Kudos to Mobi from bringing it to the forum's attention, but what now?

It might sound heartless but noone is going to convince me someone - embassy, church, government, thaivisa - shouldnt be doing all they can to get this guy back where he belongs, under the protection of his home country's state support system. He might want to stay here. Fine. That's his choice, but this is no place for an 80-year old, friendless guy to live and - let's face it - die.

However, it seems that's not an option, despite him having 800,000 in the bank to maintain his retirement visa.

(I must admit, that's where my compassion breaks down. 800,000 in the bank and if he left Thailand - even to go to a EU country - his state pension would be unfrozen and payable at 2007 rates. In fact, there's something that doesnt ring true with the financial side of things. If his pension is frozen at 1982 rates, that would only be around 30 quid or 2000 baht a week. Is that his sole source of income? It doesnt take an genius to work out that after paying 7000 a month for his maid and, presumably the rent on a 2-bed apartment, he MUST have some other income.)

But putting that to one side, now the challenge is to find him help here. I hope Mobi can do it. I suspect he won't be able to.

[Austhaied]

I don't think Sister Joan can help him but may know someone who can.

Whether this bloke deserves his condition or not, show some compassion people..

http://www.sisterjoan.info/elderly.htm

[Mobi]

MF,

Thanks for the offer of help. I have sent you a PM.

[Mobi]

(I must admit, that's where my compassion breaks down. 800,000 in the bank and if he left Thailand - even to go to a EU country - his state pension would be unfrozen and payable at 2007 rates. In fact, there's something that doesnt ring true with the financial side of things. If his pension is frozen at 1982 rates, that would only be around 30 quid or 2000 baht a week. Is that his sole source of income? It doesnt take an genius to work out that after paying 7000 a month for his maid and, presumably the rent on a 2-bed apartment, he MUST have some other income.)

But putting that to one side, now the challenge is to find him help here. I hope Mobi can do it. I suspect he won't be able to.

I agree the numbers don't quite add up. I suppose he may have some small private pension - but there is no doubt that his income is very low, and just enough to pay his rent, food, and 7000 over to pay a maid.

I am not an expert but I remain unconvinced that if he returned to the Uk his pension would be re-instated at today's rates. What is more likely is that he would have to apply for 'national assistance' or whatever they call it these days, and he would be means tested etc. He wouldn't even know where to start - let alone where to live.

Yes he should probably do this, but even I cannot imagine this man - 80 and frail, totally disconnected from his homeland, going back to a place he hasn't seen for over 25 years, and eking out his days. I am sure he would rather do what some of the more unkind posters have already suggested.

[ColPyat]

It might sound heartless but noone is going to convince me someone - embassy, church, government, thaivisa - shouldnt be doing all they can to get this guy back where he belongs, under the protection of his home country's state support system. He might want to stay here. Fine. That's his choice, but this is no place for an 80-year old, friendless guy to live and - let's face it - die.

The problem here is, that forcing an 80 year old bloke back to a country where he has no relatives, no friends, no contacts and where he does not want to go, is very problematic. The question is not whose fault it is that he is in this position, but what is the most humanistic solution.

The problem of such cases is recognized now finally, and there are many organizations that try to work on solutions. It is also recognized that for such cases the solution is not to send them to their home countries against their will, but to find local solutions.

There is a multitude of NGOs working on all imaginable worthy (and more than a few unworthy) causes here, but very little professional is available for the increasing number of westerners that are in need of help here, especially for cases such as this, where westerners need indefinite assistance.

One of the huge problems is that western social systems lag far behind global trends. All care would be given to this man in his country of origin, but a much smaller amount of money could give him better quality care here. But, due to legal problems he will not get these funds made available while being here.

This is a major headache for embassies here who are bound by these same laws, but recognize the problem, and that something has to be done about. Established churches have some budgets, and are usually the ones to approach in lack of any organized system.

In cases such as this man, you cannot send him to a country that he has no connection to anymore, even if it is his place of origin. For him - home is here.

[El Taco Loco]

Father John might also be able to help.

http://www.cssr.or.th/thai/index.php?optio...9&Itemid=62

Saint John Neumann House

P.O.45 Minburi

Bangkok 10510

Tel. 02-518-0320 Ext. 9 to 208

[Maizefarmer]

"The problem here is, that forcing an 80 year old bloke back to a country where he has no relatives, no friends, no contacts and where he does not want to go, is very problematic. The question is not whose fault it is that he is in this position, but what is the most humanistic solution."

Well said.

MF

[meemiathai]

no, the whole point is that she doesn't have a choice !

if she doesn't take any kind of low paid job, she has nothing, while he could have a whole lot more money, if he would have taken responsibility for himself !

so, yes, I feel sorry for the majority of the people here who have to work very hard for a very low pay !

It is very nice of you to feel that way. But that is life. There is nothing we can do maybe.

It is exactly the inequality in life that had given us such easy lives. Most people wouldn't want to admit it when they are on the receiving end. They don't want to think of themselves as not good people.

My 2 sisters in law are still struggling to stay alive. They work more than 12 hours a day and get around 5000 baht a month. Just imagine how one can live on that! House, clothes, food, transport and healthcare.....etc. And no, they don't have a songthaew, a pick-up & a motorbike. Not everyone in thailand has one of them!

Sorry but what was this old man's plight again?

[Youbloodybeauty]

I am looking for suggestions, and more importantly a nurse/maid that may help to alleviate his immediate distress. He is a fellow countryman - a human being - who- maybe through his own fault - has found himself in distressing circumstances. I am just trying to help a bit.

Some random thoughts:

Nursing Homes have heating in the UK.

Will 7000 baht cover costs in the future?

He may need special equipment.

What if he needs high care?

Is a Burmese girl trained to lift a person/bath/toilet etc if the person can't walk

Medical costs - Incontinence pad costs etc.

What if he has a stroke?

I think he may be better to head back to the UK.

On the other hand, a difficult subject - How long should we preserve life and prolong suffering?

Edited June 9, 2007 by Youbloodybeauty

[Mobi]

I agree the numbers don't quite add up. I suppose he may have some small private pension - but there is no doubt that his income is very low, and just enough to pay his rent, food, and 7000 over to pay a maid.

Just to clarify.

I now understand that he only has a state pension which is fifty odd pounds a week, and translates into 15,000 Baht per month. He pays his rent annually from the interest on his visa money.

That's it.

He will never go back to England. That is for absolutely certain.

[bina]

i find it peculiar that many people assume that someone would 'go back' to their original country if sick and frail.

well, having spent more years of my life in a 'foreign' country, i could never go back> apart from parents and sister i have no contact with other family; no clue as to how to live there, for me, my original country would be like a foreign country apart from the language (i get culture shock even now when i go for a visit every five or so years- didnt know what a debit card was at last visit.)

in my country of residence here, i could get social welfare etc, howver, if i were to move to thailand, and i didnt keep up some sort of visiting/residency here, i get my 'welfare money' in a sum, and thats it. if i were to come back, i would have to start with 0 again in the health system and the welfare system. (which is one of my dilemnas about moving over to thailand in the first place).

i also would have no where to stay. a home for the elderly and distitute would maybe give me food, but certainly would mean that i would die a lingering death due to bedsores, malnutrition, lack of social stimulation, etc. as public old age homes are awful here and who would visit me?

i might indeed prefer to die in familiar surroundings rather than in some place that i have no connection to, but am more or less maintained. thats sort of death also, while u are living.

as for choosing life styles: i chose to live in a communal lifestyle which is now falling apart meaning that i have no financial backup, no clue as to deal with real life bearucracy, and no external safetynets. so essentially i am in the same situation here (only young healthy and working)... i did not forsee that my lifestyle choice would collapse. no one does really. even if u have a giant pension plan, and organize everything so that u will be ok when u are old and decrepit, u cannot forsee what may happen in the future: economic regulation changes, political changes, wars, etc...

if i were to plan ahead for every detail in my life, i wouldnt step out the door (or live in a mild war zone for tha matter)

this could be any of you/us, at any time....

bina

israel

[Youbloodybeauty]

I find it peculiar that many people assume that someone would 'go back' to their original country if sick and frail.

He has little money and in Oz (and I'm sure UK) the pension covers "low and high care" places. These days they are regulated heavily and much better than years ago.

What do you get for 7000 baht? If he had much cash the replies may be totally different.

[chevykanteve]

So he's a miserable old git who has kicked all his friends away with his attitude, and now he's getting frail he wants them all to rally around again?

Sympathy and all that, but if he chooses to live here and forego the state help he'd get in the UK, what is anyone else expected to do about it?

This is a vintage Bendixian response in terms of cold heartlessness. Said coldness approaches zero degrees Kelvin. None of the characters portrayed by Charles Dickens even begin to approach your level of utter contemptness for the less-advantaged. When, dear Bendix, will the spirit of Christmas (giving, sympathy ... et al) affect your soul in some positive manner? Shame, and shame again!

Incidentally, old boy, it's not that I totally disagree with you.... It's just that you are at times rather direct in expressing your opinions -- I should think much more so than is necessary. Swat a fly with a fly-swat (or a copy of The Times), not with a backhoe! Either way that insect will die. Be discrete, old fellow! I hope you don't take umbrage at these humble words of advice.

Edited June 9, 2007 by chevykanteve

[nick2k]

someone mentioned "nursing homes". so, I did a google search, and found that there are nursing homes in thailand.

how much they charge, I don't know. you will have to find out yourself. here is the list...

http://www.hospihouse.com/eng/index.html

http://www.goldenyears.co.th/aboutus/home-eng.html

http://www.thailongstay.co.th/en/profile/c_service.php

http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/calcs/n_expect/main.asp

after reading this posting, I thought to myself. ..what would I do if I was 80? and guess what I came up with?

..find a hotel here in bangkok with a big lobby where a lot of old people hang out.

there are some around. just go look.

[torito]

Incidentally, old boy, it's not that I totally disagree with you.... It's just that you are at times rather direct in expressing your opinions -- I should think much more so than is necessary. Swat a fly with a fly-swat (or a copy of The Times), not with a backhoe! Either way that insect will die. Be discrete, old fellow! I hope you don't take umbrage at these humble words of advice.

'chevykanteve' thanks for your note. I wish I could manage English the way you do. This express my normal feeling towards many posts.

It is not that I totally disagree with some, but I cannot cope with the unnecessary arrogance, indiscreteness, rudeness, insensitivity and sometimes vulgarity that overwrites their entire argumentation.