Cloth face masks not recommended against Omicron

[KhunLA]

The size of the covid molecule, and what most, even one of the best (N95) allows through, means most are fairly useless at providing any protection for 'you'.  Without full face protection, they become even a sillier exercise .... IMHO

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

The size of the covid molecule, and what most, even one of the best (N95) allows through, means most are fairly useless at providing any protection for 'you'.  Without full face protection, they become even a sillier exercise .... IMHO

This highlights a misunderstanding..... 

 

First of all covid is not a molecule, covid, or in this case Covid-19 is the disease caused by the virus SARS-CoV-2. 

Neither is SARS-CoV-2 a molecule, it is a virus. A SARS-CoV-2 viron is reported to be approximately 0.06 to 0.14 microns, and averaging 0.125 microns in diameter (125 nanometers).

 

The size of the ‘holes’ in an N95 mask is approximately 0.3 microns (300 nanometers), 2-3x larger than the SARS-CoV-2 viron.

 

 

It is with this simplified size comparison you made and assumption and a mistake. 

 

The SARS-CoV-2 virus is not an airborne virus, i.e it does not ‘float around’ as individual particles.

The SARS-CoV-2 virus is attached or bonded to something such as  water, mucus, protein and other biological matter expelled from an infected persons respiratory tract which is always larger than 1 micron (via talking, laughing, sneezing, coughing, excessive breathing etc). 

 

 

The N95 mask is capable of filtering 0.3 microns and thus can filter the ‘particulate’ to which the SARS-CoV-2 virus is bonded. 

 

However, the caveat is the fitting of the mask itself - a poorly fitting mask is obvious less effective. 

A perfectly fitting mask is obviously more effective. 

 

 

To summarise: The idea that an N95 mask is unable to filter out the SARS-CoV-2 viron is false because the individual viron is never naked, it is always bonded to other particulate matter. 

 

But also, masks of course do not provide 100% protection, they never can as we fiddle with them, move them, pull them off to take a drink of water etc, or move our face such that at times a little gap develops etc.

 

Are regular surgical and cloth masks effective ? I believe so, but only as a ‘barrier’ to prevent the ‘throw’ of expelled particulate matter from an infected persons respiratory tract. 

I don’t believe regular surgical masks and cloth masks offer any personal protection, but if everyone wears them there is a reduced risk for everyone else.

 

Are N95 masks better, yes, for reasons explained above, they act as both a barrier and if well fitting as a personal protective barrier, but of course they do not offer 100% protection, only a full on respirator and goggles do that. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kinnock]

18 hours ago, Virt said:

Non smoker, BMI 25, below age 55.

No respiratory conditions, but that masks prevents me from breathing normally when outdoors.

When i walk without masks, I'm one of those persons that more or less walk as fast as others jog.

 

No idea why that little mask cause problems, and that's maybe why i hate them.

I don't have any issues when it's only for use when sitting in a plane for several hours and such, but after like 10 minutes of walking i start to feel normal breathing is becoming an issue.

Can walk for hours without a mask and have no breathing issues then.

 

I could of course just wear the 1 layer cloth masks, but what's the point of that if surgical masks provide a better protection.

 

Thankfully i live in a country that never had made masks mandatory outdoors during this entire pandemic.

If they did i would have to shift to face Shields which are allowed here, but they honestly don't protect a whole lot.

I'm over 60, had a left lower lobectomy due to lung cancer in the past, and can run 10 km a day in 38'C wearing a mask.  The trick is to wear a plastic frame under the mask to keep it from touching your mouth (mine's from Lazada, a few THB each).

 

When running it feels like I can't breathe properly for the first 1-2 km, but I think it's in my mind, as when I relax into the run I feel better.  

 

I don't like running in a mask, and once when I forgot to wear one, it was like having a supercharger, but those plastic things do help make it bearable.

[KhunLA]

43 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

This highlights a misunderstanding..... 

 

First of all covid is not a molecule, covid, or in this case Covid-19 is the disease caused by the virus SARS-CoV-2. 

Neither is SARS-CoV-2 a molecule, it is a virus. A SARS-CoV-2 viron is reported to be approximately 0.06 to 0.14 microns, and averaging 0.125 microns in diameter (125 nanometers).

 

The size of the ‘holes’ in an N95 mask is approximately 0.3 microns (300 nanometers), 2-3x larger than the SARS-CoV-2 viron.

 

 

It is with this simplified size comparison you made and assumption and a mistake. 

 

The SARS-CoV-2 virus is not an airborne virus, i.e it does not ‘float around’ as individual particles.

The SARS-CoV-2 virus is attached or bonded to something such as  water, mucus, protein and other biological matter expelled from an infected persons respiratory tract which is always larger than 1 micron (via talking, laughing, sneezing, coughing, excessive breathing etc). 

 

 

The N95 mask is capable of filtering 0.3 microns and thus can filter the ‘particulate’ to which the SARS-CoV-2 virus is bonded. 

 

However, the caveat is the fitting of the mask itself - a poorly fitting mask is obvious less effective. 

A perfectly fitting mask is obviously more effective. 

 

 

To summarise: The idea that an N95 mask is unable to filter out the SARS-CoV-2 viron is false because the individual viron is never naked, it is always bonded to other particulate matter. 

 

But also, masks of course do not provide 100% protection, they never can as we fiddle with them, move them, pull them off to take a drink of water etc, or move our face such that at times a little gap develops etc.

 

Are regular surgical and cloth masks effective ? I believe so, but only as a ‘barrier’ to prevent the ‘throw’ of expelled particulate matter from an infected persons respiratory tract. 

I don’t believe regular surgical masks and cloth masks offer any personal protection, but if everyone wears them there is a reduced risk for everyone else.

 

Are N95 masks better, yes, for reasons explained above, they act as both a barrier and if well fitting as a personal protective barrier, but of course they do not offer 100% protection, only a full on respirator and goggles do that. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Capable, yes, but test show, most mask, even medical, allow free flow of 200-500nm & up.  Very few use N95, and lack of full facial protection (eyes), again make them useless for your protection.

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

Capable, yes, but test show, most mask, even medical, allow free flow of 200-500nm & up.  Very few use N95, and lack of full facial protection (eyes), again make them useless for your protection.

Is your argument that masks are 100% ‘ineffective’ ??? 

 

-------

 

Hypothetical situation:

 

a) 100,000 people - Not wearing masks

b) 100,000 people - Wearing surgical masks

c) 100,000 people - Wearing N95 masks

 

100 of the 100,000 people have Covid-19 (Omicron) - In which group would there be a greater degree of transmission ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Is your argument that masks are 100% ‘ineffective’ ??? 

almost ...

 

... Have a nice day

[rabas]

Myth Buster

 

Myth: "Very small virus size particles easily penetrate an N95 mask because an N95 mask has a 0.3 µm hole size."

 

Truth: An N95 mask can filter 0.1 µm particles better than 0.3 µm particles, and tiny 0.01 µm particles have little to no chance of penetrating.  N95 masks do not have a hole size but are rated for 0.3 µm because 0.3 µm particles have the highest penetrating power of all sizes.

 

Summary: N95 will filter >= 95% of any particle size. A picture says 1000 words.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by rabas

[Karma80]

The reality is that you will continue to touch the outside of it, pull down your chin from time to time,

You'll touch your face, surfaces and generally not be in a surgical setting.

If you are a tourist in Phuket, it seems to be all the vogue to just have your nose poking out so you can breathe. Covid is beneath farang.

I'm for masks 100%, but I do wish people would use them properly, no matter what type they choose.

[richard_smith237]

38 minutes ago, Karma80 said:

The reality is that you will continue to touch the outside of it, pull down your chin from time to time,

You'll touch your face, surfaces and generally not be in a surgical setting.

If you are a tourist in Phuket, it seems to be all the vogue to just have your nose poking out so you can breathe. Covid is beneath farang.

I'm for masks 100%, but I do wish people would use them properly, no matter what type they choose.

I also wish the regulations around mask wearing would be more logical (at least logic as I understand it).

 

The current regulations in Thailand state: 

- Mask wear in a car whenever not alone, even with others from the same household. 

I understand why, its because police do not know if others are from the same household, but it's still ridiculous. 

 

- Mask wearing everywhere outdoors.

If someone is walking down a very quiet street, why the need to wear a mask ?

Why wear a mask when 5m away from others on a beach etc

 

Of course, Mask wearing on all forms of public transport and in Taxi’s makes perfect sense. 

Mask wearing in all ‘indoor area’s such as shopping malls etc makes sense. 

Mask wearing in all outdoor areas of high footfall such as out wet markets and outdoor markets etc makes sense.

 

 

I think a lot of the resistance from many regarding mask regulations is that some of them are just blanket regulations rather than allowing for intelligent discretion. 

 

 

That said: Thailand is a lot better than many many other countries for mask wearing. 

Go into a supermarket in the UK (in Nov) and only about 5% of people were wearing a mask. 

[jacko45k]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

The size of the covid molecule, and what most, even one of the best (N95) allows through, means most are fairly useless at providing any protection for 'you'.  Without full face protection, they become even a sillier exercise .... IMHO

Covid isn't a molecule so bad start!

[KhunLA]

18 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Covid isn't a molecule so bad start!

I could have lead with this ... "SARS-CoV-2 is an enveloped virus ≈0.1 μm in diameter"

 

Then I'd have to explain that, so used molecule.  Sometimes it's hard to talk down to the class.

[KhunLA]

22 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Covid isn't a molecule so bad start!

I could have lead with this ... "SARS-CoV-2 is an enveloped virus ≈0.1 μm in diameter"

 

Then I'd have to explain that, so used molecule.  Sometimes it's hard to talk down to the class.

[rabas]

29 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I could have lead with this ... "SARS-CoV-2 is an enveloped virus ≈0.1 μm in diameter"

Then I'd have to explain that, so used molecule.  Sometimes it's hard to talk down to the class.

A SARS-2 particle, by any other name, would fail to penetrate N95 masks.

[Virt]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

I also wish the regulations around mask wearing would be more logical (at least logic as I understand it).

 

The current regulations in Thailand state: 

- Mask wear in a car whenever not alone, even with others from the same household. 

I understand why, its because police do not know if others are from the same household, but it's still ridiculous. 

 

- Mask wearing everywhere outdoors.

If someone is walking down a very quiet street, why the need to wear a mask ?

Why wear a mask when 5m away from others on a beach etc

 

Of course, Mask wearing on all forms of public transport and in Taxi’s makes perfect sense. 

Mask wearing in all ‘indoor area’s such as shopping malls etc makes sense. 

Mask wearing in all outdoor areas of high footfall such as out wet markets and outdoor markets etc makes sense.

 

 

I think a lot of the resistance from many regarding mask regulations is that some of them are just blanket regulations rather than allowing for intelligent discretion. 

 

 

That said: Thailand is a lot better than many many other countries for mask wearing. 

Go into a supermarket in the UK (in Nov) and only about 5% of people were wearing a mask. 

Some mask rules makes more sense than others.

 

Wearing a mask in the car with your loved ones are simply just to stupid.

 

Why wear mask outdoors if you are walking alone on the beach or other places where is possible to keep distance to everyone.

 

Wearing a mask outdoors can make sense if you are in crowded places, but outdoors the virus does not spread as much as indoors.

 

Omicron can of course have changed that, if it really spread at closer range as some claim it does.

 

In general I'm not a supporter of masks outdoors.

I support mandatory masks inside while shopping, public transport,malls, government buildings etc etc, but only as long as covid is spiking.

 

In Denmark we never made masks mandatory outdoors and only have mandatory masks inside when the virus is causing a problem, as it clearly does now.

Our numbers are through the roof.

 

When the spikes go down danish authorities will once again remove the emergency degree that makes COVID a critical danger to the society, and masks will once again be gone.

 

They authorities can't make masks mandatory at place, when that decree is not in place.

 

They did that earlier this year and we lived without any restrictions at all for several months.

It was nice to live like nothing ever happened.

It was weird at the same time because other countries still lived under lockdown or had strict restrictions.

Winter and omicron changed that and we're back to masks inside, but I'm 100 % sure we will not have mandatory masks no longer than it is required.

 

That being said i wear my mask at all all times where i am required to do so.

 

On Tenerife atm, and let's just say the Thai police would wet their pants if they saw the same thing in Thailand.

Masks were made mandatory all over Tenerife also outdoors, but i think it's like 80 % or so that does not wear a mask outdoors.

 

Lot of walking ATMs ????

 

The police would make an absolute fortune if they fined everyone.

 

I find it a bit silly to wear my mask at all times when so many does not down here, but a rule is a rule, and you have to respect the rules in the country you are in.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, rabas said:

A SARS-2 particle, by any other name, would fail to penetrate N95 masks.

How many people you see using N95?

 

Topic is cloth...nuff said

[jacko45k]

25 minutes ago, Virt said:

Some mask rules makes more sense than others.

Stop banging on with weak  excuses, terms and conditions. Wearing a mask to protect oneself  and others against Covid is far from stupid... I would say it is a considerate and intelligent thing to do. Enough of this 'mummy I don't want to' stuff! 

Edited December 30, 2021 by jacko45k

[Virt]

44 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Stop banging on with weak  excuses, terms and conditions. Wearing a mask to protect oneself  and others against Covid is far from stupid... I would say it is a considerate and intelligent thing to do. Enough of this 'mummy I don't want to' stuff! 

That's like saying we should wear masks at all times from now on and forever because COVID is not going away according to many experts.

 

Do you seriously want to wear a mask at all times.

 

I say.

Wear the masks when covid is causing problems and drop them again, when it's not a problem.

 

You can wear your masks at all timed if you want to, even in periods where covid is not causing any problems.

 

Then i wear mine when the authorities tell me to.

 

And i do and did through the entire pandemic.

Paid and bought approximate 1000 certified surgical masks during the pandemic so far.

 

[KhunLA]

34 minutes ago, Virt said:

Paid and bought approximate 1000 certified surgical masks during the pandemic so far.

And covid is  ~100 nm range ... 

 

"Surgical masks showed penetration levels of approximately 55–85% and 70–90% at flow rates of 30 and 100 liters/minute, respectively, for 300 nm particles. The most penetrating particle size (MPPS) was in the 200–500 nm range. Surgical masks were found to be less efficient compared to dust-mist (DM) and dust-mist-fume (DMF) respirators."

[kimamey]

5 hours ago, Karma80 said:

The reality is that you will continue to touch the outside of it, pull down your chin from time to time,

You'll touch your face, surfaces and generally not be in a surgical setting.

If you are a tourist in Phuket, it seems to be all the vogue to just have your nose poking out so you can breathe. Covid is beneath farang.

I'm for masks 100%, but I do wish people would use them properly, no matter what type they choose.

It will be pretty clear they are tourists if they don't know that having the mask hanging off one ear is the right way if you don't want to look "so last year".   ????

[Virt]

9 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

And covid is  ~100 nm range ... 

 

"Surgical masks showed penetration levels of approximately 55–85% and 70–90% at flow rates of 30 and 100 liters/minute, respectively, for 300 nm particles. The most penetrating particle size (MPPS) was in the 200–500 nm range. Surgical masks were found to be less efficient compared to dust-mist (DM) and dust-mist-fume (DMF) respirators."

I picked the type II which experts says are good enough for the general public.

Better than cloth masks but less effective than N95.

 

Bought the surgical masks since i thrown them in the bin after 10 minutes use in public transport/shopping, do didn't want to buy the best choice when i don't use them for so long each time.

[rabas]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

And covid is  ~100 nm range ... 

 

"Surgical masks showed penetration levels of approximately 55–85% and 70–90% at flow rates of 30 and 100 liters/minute, respectively, for 300 nm particles. The most penetrating particle size (MPPS) was in the 200–500 nm range. Surgical masks were found to be less efficient compared to dust-mist (DM) and dust-mist-fume (DMF) respirators."

You erroneously copied a single quote from a paper that was unrelated to the paper's data and results. The quote was one of many introductory summaries of old, out of date studies. What you quoted is 30 years old.  See para 4. So effectively, you cherry picked a sour grape from a trash can.

 

The full paper: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7357397/

 

If you read it, you'll see there are many grades of surgical masks, not one. Now they even have N99. See: USA: ASTM F2100 Level 2 (0.1 microns >98%).

 

The real data from the paper also does not support you claims.

Edited December 30, 2021 by rabas

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, rabas said:

You erroneously copied a single quote from a paper that was unrelated to the paper's data and results.

Facts are to antivaxers and conspiracy theory believers as sunlight is to a vampire.

[richard_smith237]

6 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Then I'd have to explain that, so used molecule.  Sometimes it's hard to talk down to the class.

The irony in this statement is both highly entertaining and outstanding !!! 

 

 

BritManToo has a signature quote to which you are perfectly suited !! ????

Edited December 30, 2021 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

4 hours ago, KhunLA said:

5 hours ago, rabas said:

A SARS-2 particle, by any other name, would fail to penetrate N95 masks.

How many people you see using N95?

 

Topic is cloth...nuff said

Aww... struggling with the natural migration of a topic to further on topic discussion ?

 

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

58 minutes ago, rabas said:

You erroneously copied a single quote from a paper that was unrelated to the paper's data and results. The quote was one of many introductory summaries of old, out of date studies. What you quoted is 30 years old.  See para 4. So effectively, you cherry picked a sour grape from a trash can.

 

The full paper: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7357397/

 

If you read it, you'll see there are many grades of surgical masks, not one. Now they even have N99. See: USA: ASTM F2100 Level 2 (0.1 microns >98%).

 

The real data from the paper also does not support you claims.

 

 

 

Unfortunately.... some of the ‘class’ (see below) think they are the ones who are talking down to the class !!!

 

It’s often amusing when people who don’t know what they don’t know highlight so clearly that they don’t know what they don’t know !!!... 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Sometimes it's hard to talk down to the class.

 

 

[jacko45k]

13 hours ago, Virt said:

That's like saying we should wear masks at all times from now on and forever because COVID is not going away according to many experts.

And........?

It might just become the way of life, if it becomes endemic not pandemic. Like in some Asian countries, when a person has a cold, they use a mask to protect others. How many times have I got sick after some cretin sneezed down my neck on public transport, or a flight on a plane. 

[Virt]

7 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

And........?

It might just become the way of life, if it becomes endemic not pandemic. Like in some Asian countries, when a person has a cold, they use a mask to protect others. How many times have I got sick after some cretin sneezed down my neck on public transport, or a flight on a plane. 

Totally respect those Asians that wear a mask if they have a cold to protect others, but shouldn't they just stay home in bed instead?

 

You then blaim others to have passed the cold to you.

And you never did?

I find that a bit hard to believe, but hey if you stayed inside in bed at all times while having a cold, super cadeau to you.

 

We will never agree, so you just wear your mask if you want, and then i wear mine when the authorities tells me to.

It's fine if you want to wear your mask forever, just don't expect everyone else will.

 

I will however agree that it's not impossible that we will see masks more frequently in the streets in western countries when we have the annually flu and cold seasons.

 

But it won't be mandatory.

[jacko45k]

30 minutes ago, Virt said:

You then blaim others to have passed the cold to you.

And you never did?

I certainly do not cough nor sneeze on people.

You seem to be another who has to get overly sarcastic when on the end of a discussion....

Goodbye.

[Virt]

4 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

I certainly do not cough nor sneeze on people.

You seem to be another who has to get overly sarcastic when on the end of a discussion....

Goodbye.

No people with a bit of common sense would sneeze or cough on other people, but there are other ways to pass the cold.

But let's just leave it there, since we're not getting anywhere.

 

Have a good new years evening.

????

 Hopefully in 2022 at some point we don't have to sit and discuss covid, vaccinations, masks, lockdowns and all that <deleted> this darn virus has lead to.

[TooMuchTime]

I remember saying this based out of common sense but people here were still defending wearing unwashed soiled loosely fit masks.

Once an article appears, "Oh yes, I agree!".

 

Masks really only provide protection if someone is having a violent cough and sneezing fits that would cause large droplets to spread everywhere.  Doesn't seem very beneficial for people just walking about normally.

 

The best protection is just to isolate yourself from others which I recommend for all those fearful of covid.

 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by TooMuchTime