A Dozen Times

[ColeBOzbourne]

While having a conversation in Thai, a local asked me how many times I had been to Brazil. Wanting to give an approximate answer, I said I had been there about a dozen times. That answer produced a long belly-laugh.

 

He explained that, in Thai, you cannot use the word dozen (โหล) to indicate the number of times something has occurred. You can say 'twelve times' or 'many times', but not a 'dozen times'.

 

Indeed, when I type into Google Translate: "A dozen times", it comes back as: หลายสิบครั้ง. But when I enter "A half dozen times" it translates it exactly as ครึ่งโหลครั้ง.

 

I checked with another Thai person that also said 'dozen' cannot be used with the number of times something occurred. To confuse me even more, he explained it can be used with certain objects, like a dozen bottles (ขวดโหล), a dozen eggs (ไข่โหล), but cannot be used with other objects. His example was that you cannot say, 'A dozen packets of sugar'. But GT doesn't agree and does translate it as น้ำตาลหนึ่งโหล.

 

He must have given me a dozen examples and explained it a dozen times, but I was still confused. I would be interested in some rules or explanations about when/why the word 'dozen' can or cannot be used in the Thai language. Thank you a dozen times over.

 

[Roel]

Originally dozen means twelve. It was a trade unit. In my mother language (Dutch) we use it the same way as the Thais. We do say a dozen bottles or a dozen eggs but not a dozen packs of sugar. Also we do not say I have been to Brazil a dozen times (not even if I would have been there exactly twelve times). So in English the meaning of dozen seems to have been altered, so it can be used in other scenario's. Mind that - as you surely know - a gross is 144 or a 12 dozen. With gross the same thing didn't happen. When you have been numerous times to Brazil you cannot say I have been there a gross times. 

[ColeBOzbourne]

Interesting and informative, Roel, thanks. In English sometimes we use the word dozen when it isn't actually twelve, but to mean close to that number or many times. So I said I had been to Brazil 'about' a dozen times. To me that's anywhere from 10-15 times. People might say to each other, "I must have told you a dozen times...", just to emphasis they have been told multiple times, but in reality probably no where near an actual dozen.

[Oxx]

โหล (in this sense) is a classifier.  It is used after a noun.  So, for example, แอปเปิ้ลโหล is "a dozen apples".

 

In a phrase such as "dozen times", "dozen" is acting as a noun, so can not be translated as โหล.  (In Thai terms, "times" is the classifier here.)

[ColeBOzbourne]

Thanks Oxx, that makes sense. I had to read it a few times to wrap my brain around it.

 

As for Roel's comment that dozen is a trade unit, that may explain why some items can be quantified by 'dozen' and others cannot. As the Thai man explained, packets of sugar cannot be labeled dozen, but boxes of sugar can. I suppose because in trade, sugar is not normally sold/bought by the packet. It is traded by the box.

 

In English we could say, "I have a 'dozen' boxes, with a 'dozen' packets of sugar in each one". In Thai you would say, "I have a 'dozen' boxes, with 'twelve' packets of sugar in each one".

 

Same for cigarettes I would imagine. Not sold individually so you wouldn't have a dozen cigarettes. But you could have a dozen packs or cartons of cigarettes.

[Badger18]

On 1/7/2022 at 2:28 AM, ColeBOzbourne said:

Indeed, when I type into Google Translate: "A dozen times", it comes back as: หลายสิบครั้ง.

I wonder if that's right. To me หลายร้อย means hundreds (as in "hundreds of times") and หลายสิบ is the same thing but for tens. Around 12 times is not really "tens of times". In other words I think หลายสิบ is OK for "dozens" but not for "a dozen".

 

This raises another question - how come we say "hundreds of times" but not "tens of times"? Maybe because we count hundreds ("two hundred, three hundred...") but not tens ("twenty, thirty..."). I mean the -ty obviously does signify ten, but it's not as though we say "three ten" the way we say "three hundred". Thai does count tens, more or less, so that fits.

 

On 1/7/2022 at 3:16 AM, Roel said:

So in English the meaning of dozen seems to have been altered, so it can be used in other scenario's

Maybe because we can't really say "tens of...", so we adopted "dozens of" to fill the gap, especially as it suggests an estimated number. Can you say "tens of" in Dutch, and does your number system count tens, e.g. is 40 four ten?

[ColeBOzbourne]

On 1/7/2022 at 10:16 AM, Roel said:

So in English the meaning of dozen seems to have been altered, so it can be used in other scenario's.

There's also a 'Baker's Dozen' which is actually thirteen instead of twelve. Possibly long ago a baker could be punished if they sold a dozen loaves of bread that were underweight. So they threw in one extra loaf just to be safe.

Edited January 8, 2022 by ColeBOzbourne

[mlkik]

On 1/8/2022 at 11:01 AM, ColeBOzbourne said:

There's also a 'Baker's Dozen' which is actually thirteen instead of twelve. Possibly long ago a baker could be punished if they sold a dozen loaves of bread that were underweight. So they threw in one extra loaf just to be safe.

The term Bakers dozen meaning 13 originated as the Baker would make a dozen and an extra 1 for himself/herself,hence a Bakers dozen is 13.

[Roel]

On 1/8/2022 at 10:34 AM, Badger18 said:

I wonder if that's right. To me หลายร้อย means hundreds (as in "hundreds of times") and หลายสิบ is the same thing but for tens. Around 12 times is not really "tens of times". In other words I think หลายสิบ is OK for "dozens" but not for "a dozen".

 

This raises another question - how come we say "hundreds of times" but not "tens of times"? Maybe because we count hundreds ("two hundred, three hundred...") but not tens ("twenty, thirty..."). I mean the -ty obviously does signify ten, but it's not as though we say "three ten" the way we say "three hundred". Thai does count tens, more or less, so that fits.

 

Maybe because we can't really say "tens of...", so we adopted "dozens of" to fill the gap, especially as it suggests an estimated number. Can you say "tens of" in Dutch, and does your number system count tens, e.g. is 40 four ten?

Yes, we can say 'tens of' in Dutch 'tientallen keren' which Google translates as 'dozens of times'. We do counting the same as in English: twenty = twintig, thirty = dertig, forty = veertig etc.