10,000 Anti-coup Demonstrators Expected At Sanam Luang Rally

[Siripon]

i wouldn't call 16 million voters "apologists". what is there to apologise for?

what about all the junta apologists on the board who have to rely on local newspapers to give them opinions?

Ermm. Take a read of the Amnesty International and Human Rights watch stuff on Mr. Thaksin. Then there are a few corruption cases and then there is.... But we are all entitled to our opinions which actually most are quite capable of forming.

What has it got to do with 16 million voters who voted in a now cancelled election? This is about crimes and misdemeanours. these things are dealt with by the judicial branch and not by a popular vote. Thailand still has a few problems following a judicial decision made in 2001 to take into account election numbers rather than law.

Amnesty International's report on the Thaksin human rights abuses is rightly scathing, specifically the drug war murders but also the military crimes in the South.But from the junta there is nothing on these abuses, and certainly no intention of pinning them on Thaksin.Ever wonder why? Could it be that these policies had the support of most Thais from the very top of the pyramid downwards.Doesn't make these offences right but let's not pretend that the power elite's pursuit of Thaksin has anything to do with justice, let alone morality.

Wrong, one of the first things Khun Surayud did was make a very public apology to the muslims in the deep south for Thaksin's abuses of human rights.

Now he can be criticised for failing to bring the Tak Bai perpetrators to account but he has pledged to reform the police force with half of the process expected to be completed before the end of his tenure, do the Thaksin apologists object to that by the way?

To expect him to take on the army at the same time would surely be political suicide.

[younghusband]

i wouldn't call 16 million voters "apologists". what is there to apologise for?

what about all the junta apologists on the board who have to rely on local newspapers to give them opinions?

Ermm. Take a read of the Amnesty International and Human Rights watch stuff on Mr. Thaksin. Then there are a few corruption cases and then there is.... But we are all entitled to our opinions which actually most are quite capable of forming.

What has it got to do with 16 million voters who voted in a now cancelled election? This is about crimes and misdemeanours. these things are dealt with by the judicial branch and not by a popular vote. Thailand still has a few problems following a judicial decision made in 2001 to take into account election numbers rather than law.

Amnesty International's report on the Thaksin human rights abuses is rightly scathing, specifically the drug war murders but also the military crimes in the South.But from the junta there is nothing on these abuses, and certainly no intention of pinning them on Thaksin.Ever wonder why? Could it be that these policies had the support of most Thais from the very top of the pyramid downwards.Doesn't make these offences right but let's not pretend that the power elite's pursuit of Thaksin has anything to do with justice, let alone morality.

Wrong, one of the first things Khun Surayud did was make a very public apology to the muslims in the deep south for Thaksin's abuses of human rights.

Now he can be criticised for failing to bring the Tak Bai perpetrators to account but he has pledged to reform the police force with half of the process expected to be completed before the end of his tenure, do the Thaksin apologists object to that by the way?

To expect him to take on the army at the same time would surely be political suicide.

It's true that Surayud apologised for Tak Bai but as you also point out none of the army officers have been identified and tried let alone brought to account.I can't speak for the Thaksin apologists (that mysterious body of TVposters that is referred to often but cannot actually be identified) but anyone with the interests of Thailand at heart would want to see a root and branch reform of the police force, the worst single problem any government has to face (though the army's bloated and corrupt officer corps isn't far behind).I don't understand your reference to Surayud's political suicide since he doesn't have any political ambitions beyond the constitution being approved and subsequent elections.It is precisely his independence that would give him the chance of tackling the Tak Bai murderers, but one assumes they are being protected by feudal interests .Certainly nothing is happening on that front and the violence meanwhile escalates

However we were actually talking about the drug war murders, the biggest crime of Thaksin's administration.This would be the offence to guarantee his return to Thailand for trial.But it will of course never happen.Some will say that Thais were frightened out of their wits and did not dare complain.Others will say the shoot to kill policy had the support of the highest in the land, and was broadly speaking in accordance with most Thais' wishes given the scale of the drug problem.I know what I believe.But one thing is certain:Thaksin will never be brought to account for this.

Edited July 9, 2007 by younghusband

[aaaaaa]

... one thing is certain:Thaksin will never be brought to account for this.

Ha ! what do you expect - if such a good fellow as Gen. Suchinda who IS guilty of army shooting so many people in '91 was never brought to justice. he left country, then came back, and now as I recall, even has enough audacity to speak up on some governmental matters.

Thaksin is definetely not an angel. but he is not the worst demon either. and as so many before him, and I bet after him, it is not so much surprising that he gets away with SOME things - because other got and perhaps are getting away with much bigger things.

[Jai Dee]

Temujin Network requests for tougher action against the Democracy against Dictatorship

President of the Temujin Network, Chanaphan Na Nakhon (ชนาพัทธ์ ณ นคร) has submitted a document to the Chairman of the Council for National Security (CNS) Gen. Sonthi Boonyaglin (สนธิ บุญยรัตกลิน), requesting for tough action against the Democracy against Dictatorship.

At 15.00 hours yesterday (July 9th), President of the Temujin Network has met with Maj. Gen. Wiran Chanthasatkosol (วีรัณ ฉันทศาสตร์โกศล), Secretary to the Royal Thai Army, to hand his document. He claims that the Democracy against Dictatorship has been funded by the network under the ex-Prime Minister Thaksin Shinnawatra. The group has hired people to create chaos and arranged a rally against Privy Councilor and Statesman Gen. Prem Tinsulanont.

Gen. Wiran says he will present the document to the CNS Chairman.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 10 July 2007

[Mid]

is there enough tin foil hats for all .....??

[hammered]

Temujin Network requests for tougher action against the Democracy against Dictatorship

President of the Temujin Network, Chanaphan Na Nakhon (ชนาพัทธ์ ณ นคร) has submitted a document to the Chairman of the Council for National Security (CNS) Gen. Sonthi Boonyaglin (สนธิ บุญยรัตกลิน), requesting for tough action against the Democracy against Dictatorship.

At 15.00 hours yesterday (July 9th), President of the Temujin Network has met with Maj. Gen. Wiran Chanthasatkosol (วีรัณ ฉันทศาสตร์โกศล), Secretary to the Royal Thai Army, to hand his document. He claims that the Democracy against Dictatorship has been funded by the network under the ex-Prime Minister Thaksin Shinnawatra. The group has hired people to create chaos and arranged a rally against Privy Councilor and Statesman Gen. Prem Tinsulanont.

Gen. Wiran says he will present the document to the CNS Chairman.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 10 July 2007

Nothing new. We know that already.

[Plus]

New terminology is confusing - truly old power, the military cum civil servants, had been replaced by Thaksin and his cronies, who were the new power for a while, until the coup. They have been shifted one position back as the new power now is Sonthi and co. So now, in junta speak, Sonthi is the new power, and Thaksin is the [new] old power.

Techincally speaking these are the correct current terms but in real life Sonthi is just trying to restore the original old power (technocrats from civil service and the army).

Then there's police power that grew up together with Thaksin but is facing a serious reform now, and they don't like it. They are major power brokers and everyone wants them on their side. In exchange they want total immunity from prosecution for their misdeeds and corruption. Forget about drug war - police are untouchable for a moment. Forget about Tak Bai, too - the military can't afford to prosecute their own and cause splits and disunity.

There aren't many Thaksin's apologists among regular posters, but every now and then they come out in numbers and take over some sensitive news topics, usually overnight, so in the morning there's a whole new thread several pages long filled with pro-Thaksin comments from people you never knew existed. There's no point in answering them as they disappear without a trace and never come back again.

Among regular posters I think TheDude can be counted as Thaksin apologist, and Deminister, maybe, but I wouldn't label them as such anyway - these days people are split along different lines that have little to do with Thaksin.

There's also a bit of a Ralph Nader phenomenon - by voting Nader people split Democrat vote and effectively handed the election over to Bush. They say they stick to their principles and this and that but it's the end result that matters - anti-coup protesters play Thaksin's hand.

Feel free to correct me.

[thedude]

thanks for pointing that out Plus, actually if you read my posts all the way back from before the coup, you'd know that i have been a consistent supporter of thaksin. i have nothing to apologise for because its not me who is blinded by all the propoganda and hearsay and unproven allegations. i'd say the vast majority of the junta apologists here on the board don't know what (or who) they are actually supporting. they've got their right mistaken for their left, that's because most such forumers have no understanding of thai history and the context to which the coup really occured, thinking that the thaksin witch hunt is for real. how many Thai leaders have been exiled before with allegations of graft, murder etc? how many were actually convicted? thaksin didn't invent the system of patronage needed to amass power under this culture, when he is favoured it is all legitimate, when he is not, its turned around and called corruption. junta apologists are living the double standard every day, its not like there is no vice and corruption in the streets of bangkok this very moment. its selective reasoning. they overthrew thaksin on some land deal in ratchada that wasnt even on the original list of alleged wrongdoing, if there were really some big smoking gun, it wouldn't have taken 10 months. they are just making it up as they go along. so they bought a piece of land from a state agency, big spanking deal, you think the extra 25% boost in the military spending budget will be audited? you think general surayud never benefitted from his position? why do you think so many want to be policeman or soldiers in thailand? the high pay? their noble need to provide justice and security? no, because for the non-elite, it represents the only way to gain a position higher than peasants, merchants, professionals and bureaucrats, it gives power, prestige, untouchability, and a good share of "patronage" money. how on earth can a constitution that undermines leaderships and supports a revolving door of coalition governments ever be considered to be good for the country? why are people letting it happen? they are trying to sell us the idea that unstable governments are better than stable ones. how? by raising the spectre of thaksin the bogeyman who completely abused his power, look...he er, bought some land in ratchada! the fear of power abuse is given as a reason to undermine progress under a unified government? it completely baffles me that people don't question it. the present mode of thinking is completely regressive and not in tune with the needs of a progressive society. the so called 'old powers' for people in the know are anything BUT thaksin's regime.

[hammered]

thanks for pointing that out Plus, actually if you read my posts all the way back from before the coup, you'd know that i have been a consistent supporter of thaksin. i have nothing to apologise for because its not me who is blinded by all the propoganda and hearsay and unproven allegations. i'd say the vast majority of the junta apologists here on the board don't know what (or who) they are actually supporting. they've got their right mistaken for their left, that's because most such forumers have no understanding of thai history and the context to which the coup really occured, thinking that the thaksin witch hunt is for real. how many Thai leaders have been exiled before with allegations of graft, murder etc? how many were actually convicted? thaksin didn't invent the system of patronage needed to amass power under this culture, when he is favoured it is all legitimate, when he is not, its turned around and called corruption. junta apologists are living the double standard every day, its not like there is no vice and corruption in the streets of bangkok this very moment. its selective reasoning. they overthrew thaksin on some land deal in ratchada that wasnt even on the original list of alleged wrongdoing, if there were really some big smoking gun, it wouldn't have taken 10 months. they are just making it up as they go along. so they bought a piece of land from a state agency, big spanking deal, you think the extra 25% boost in the military spending budget will be audited? you think general surayud never benefitted from his position? why do you think so many want to be policeman or soldiers in thailand? the high pay? their noble need to provide justice and security? no, because for the non-elite, it represents the only way to gain a position higher than peasants, merchants, professionals and bureaucrats, it gives power, prestige, untouchability, and a good share of "patronage" money. how on earth can a constitution that undermines leaderships and supports a revolving door of coalition governments ever be considered to be good for the country? why are people letting it happen? they are trying to sell us the idea that unstable governments are better than stable ones. how? by raising the spectre of thaksin the bogeyman who completely abused his power, look...he er, bought some land in ratchada! the fear of power abuse is given as a reason to undermine progress under a unified government? it completely baffles me that people don't question it. the present mode of thinking is completely regressive and not in tune with the needs of a progressive society. the so called 'old powers' for people in the know are anything BUT thaksin's regime.

Personally I rememebr your stance from ages ago. I just have one simple question. Why shouldnt he be prosecuted if he has done something wrong? The prosecution or lack of it for others is irrelevent. Not everyone who breaks the law gets caught, but that is no defence for those who do. If someone gets locked up for drink driving or whatver we dont say let them off because everyone does it. At some point the prosecution of the corrupt has to start and if that is with an ex-PM widely seen as corrupt so be it. After that trying to get others prosecuted, including the corrupt in this government is another step.

[Plus]

Thedude, I singled you out mostly because you are not afraid to defend your position. Most others never really engage in any meaningful exchange.

Thaksin wasn't the fist Thai leader I lived under, so to speak, as it doesn't influence me very much at all, and I was surprised not so much at the level of corruption but his arrogance and complete absense of the sense of propriety. No one is totally clean, but usually people are ashamed of their underhand dealings. Not Thaksin, and that was unacceptable.

In this land honesty and integrity still mean something at the highest levels, at the very top there IS a sense of fairness. In fact it's the only hope that holds this country together - that there's some sort of justice at the top, 'cos in people's own lives there isn't any at all.

Laws in the books don't mean squat in most cases, not unless the judges are prepared to follow them, and we've seen it takes a real kick in the ass to wake them up. Recent TRT case showed that it IS possible to follow both the spirit and the letter of the law and it CAN really work.

Under Thaksin it was a jungle out there, no rules but power and money, and no rights for anyone who hasn't kissed collective TRT ass.

This isn't a discussion of Thaksin wrongdoing, btw, there's a separate thread for that.

[A_Traveller]

Thanks for pointing that out Plus, actually if you read my posts all the way back from before the coup, you'd know that I have been a consistent supporter of Thaksin. I have nothing to apologise for because it’s not me who is blinded by all the propaganda and hearsay and unproven allegations. [Well that is open to debate and due process]

I’d say the vast majority of the junta apologists [by the by I’m not apologising for anyone, my view is that Thaksin was a disaster for democracy and fair governance for the people {all the people} of the country. You also make the mistake of assuming that those who view Thaksin as toxic to the body politic are somehow automatic supporters of the Junta, that is, to borrow your own phrase ‘selective reasoning’] here on the board don't know what (or who) they are actually supporting. They’ve got their right mistaken for their left, [Given the structure here the use of labels such as these does suggest you are also lacking in an appreciation of the subtleties here, realistically the majority here are, to borrow a term ‘somewhat right of Attila the Hun’] that's because most such forumers have no understanding of Thai history and the context to which the coup really occurred, thinking that the Thaksin witch hunt is for real. How many Thai leaders have been exiled before with allegations of graft, murder etc? How many were actually convicted? [in this case, the issue is that with a notable exception, former leaders have exited and remained silent. In Thakisn’s case he has been active in a manner designed to cause the Junta maximum discomfort]

Thaksin didn't invent the system of patronage needed to amass power under this culture, when he is favoured it is all legitimate, [Not so, or are you now having selective memory.] when he is not, it’s turned around and called corruption. Junta apologists are living the double standard every day, its not like there is no vice and corruption in the streets of Bangkok this very moment. Its selective reasoning. [No, what it is a careful analysis of the results of Thaksins period in power, the divisiveness created by the application of polices designed more to create a NEW patronage system, by replacing the effectively feudal conduits with political {TRT only} ones.]

They overthrew Thaksin on some land deal in Ratchada that wasn’t even on the original list of alleged wrongdoing, if there were really some big smoking gun, it wouldn't have taken 10 months. [Again no, this is simplistic beyond believe. The Junta first worked on the accepted principals of these actions within Thai history, once Thaksin chose to go outside them, then the focus changed. Further, the integration of questionable practices within the Thaksin government became endemic, with careful structuring designed to maximise the position of the chosen few. In addition, by grooming of individuals {prior to taking office} within the bureaux of state, it became easy to treat matters on the ‘Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?’ basis. This created the ‘heads down’ atmosphere which has permeated all investigations thus far, it’s sometimes described as the Neutral Gear.]

They are just making it up as they go along. so they bought a piece of land from a state agency, [One is tempted to draw an analogous parallel between the US dealing with Organised Crime, go for transactions, tax, and put them in jail that way.] big spanking deal, you think the extra 25% boost in the military spending budget will be audited? You think general Surayud never benefited from his position? [Care to elucidate this?]

Why do you think so many want to be policeman or soldiers in Thailand? The high pay? Their noble need to provide justice and security? No, because for the non-elite, it represents the only way to gain a position higher than peasants, merchants, professionals and bureaucrats, it gives power, prestige, untouchability, and a good share of "patronage" money. [Here you are misunderstanding what patronage is and is not. You were correct that the forces both military & civil were a route but as with people coming to Bangkok expecting to get work, the recruitment is almost exclusively now by reference and referral.]

How on earth can a constitution that undermines leaderships and supports a revolving door of coalition governments ever be considered to be good for the country? Why are people letting it happen? [Contrary to your analysis, the new constitution is being designed to reduce the power of the PM. The issue here is that, whilst I think it’s a bad move, the abuse {which you seem incapable of seeing} of the ’97 charter, which had been designed to place greater power {and concomitant responsibility} in the hands of the PM. Unfortunately, Thaksin’s decision was to take the power and forget the responsibility {and by the by his oath of office}.]

They are trying to sell us the idea that unstable governments are better than stable ones. How? By raising the spectre of Thaksin the bogeyman who completely abused his power, look...he er, bought some land in Ratchada! [Again people are not that stupid, you choose to see things in a singular light, that is your right.]

The fear of power abuse is given as a reason to undermine progress under a unified government? It completely baffles me that people don't question it. [Again no that is not the contention, nor the likely result. It is probable that coalitions may again be a factor in politics here, but that may well offer a better reflection of the situation. One possible advantage of the Thaksin experience may, and yes it is a big may, act as a stimulus for a more cohesive political landscape.]

The present mode of thinking is completely regressive and not in tune with the needs of a progressive society. [There I agree with you, but this is not a progressive society and has not been for decades {ever?}. Equally, you appear to forget that Thaksin, on the basis of the ’97 charter had it in his power to make fundamental changes to the ‘social infrastructure’ and yet again he choose not to do the things that are difficult.]

The so called 'old powers' for people in the know are anything BUT Thaksin's regime. [Again I agree that this curious attempt at Orwellian nomenclature, does no one any good]

Regards

[sriracha john]

In regards to previous wrong-doing PM's.... perhaps it's time for some new thinking...

Last month, prosecutors filed corruption charges against Mr. Thaksin and his wife in the Supreme Court, the first time criminal charges have ever been filed against a former premier in the Kingdom.

- The Nation

[Mid]

Anti-coup rallies spread in North

By Subin Kheunkaew and Thaweesak Sukkhasem

Chiang Mai

The army is fretting over a move by the anti-coup movement to organise rallies in those provinces where martial law has been lifted.

Third Army commander Lt-Gen Jiradet Khotcharat slammed the plan yesterday, saying all the coup opponents wanted was to create chaos in the country to draw international attention.

The Post Publishing Public Co

[John K]

I must admit some confusion on my part about the TRT. Do they still exist or not? I see the letters TRT appearing in the news daily in some form or another.

I can clearly see what they are doing with the anti junta rallies in the north. They clearly look to kill the now constitution and are back to their old game. For them the new constitution is a clear end to the good old days. I highly suspect vote buying is underway in isaan to vote no and return to the 1997 charter as I can see no other reason for them to be holing rallies in Isaan. It is the only place they can influence votes in huge numbers and I do see a risk because of the huge number of people with a minimal education.

[Mid]

so appointing normally elected officials is fine by you JohnK ??

[John K]

so appointing normally elected officials is fine by you JohnK ??

Like I said I am confused by the TRT anti junta or if you prefer the pro Thaksin group. Although there number appear small they are operating in the most vulnerable part of Thailand. They clearly are preying on the Thais who do not have a high enough education to see what is going on. In that case you could say they are trying to get their own people appointed or is ‘puppets’ the more accurate word. By trashing the new charter they have a shot at that. I am sure you can see that too.

[Mid]

no what I see is anything smelling like democracy being tainted with a pro TRT brush and washed away . thats what I see .

[John K]

Perhaps, like I said a seem to be a bit confused today. I had a few days laps on continuity so perhaps I missed a key news article or two. Admittedly I still can’t see the anti junta or what ever name you want to give them as being anything more than self serving.

[sriracha john]

Democrats hit back at Thaksin supporters

The Democrat party has accused opponents of the military regime of making false accusations against its party members, calling them, "Thaksin Shinawatra’s “poodles." :D

The testy exchange began on Tuesday when leaders of an anti-coup group known as the Sept 19 Network Against the Military Coup gathered outside Democrat headquarters on Tuesday with signs accusing party members of being “aides of the dictatorship”.

Democrat Deputy Spokesman Sathit Pitudecha retaliated on Wednesday.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=120080

================================================================================

Thaksin PTV rally?

[Jai Dee]

33rd Military Circle intercept PTV demonstrators in Chiang Mai

Soldiers from the 33rd Military Circle have intercepted PTV demonstrators attempting to travel from Chiang Mai to Lamphun province.

2 operational companies of soldiers from the 33rd Military Circle established checkpoints along the Mae Rim-Mae Jo (แม่ริม-แม่โจ้ ) Road in Chiang Mai province following reports that PTV demonstrators may attempt to travel through the area. Authorities revealed that PTV demonstrators numbering in the thousands arrived at the checkpoint with the intention of travleing to Lamphun province to conduct a rally.

Officials said that demonstrators affixed the Thai flag to their vehicles and used loudspeakers to convey their message. Army officials conducted tense negotiations with demonstrators for several hours, resulting in heavy traffic congestion on the Mae Rim-Mae Jo Road. The standoff ended when female demonstrators were used to persuade soldiers to stand down.

Demonstration convoys passed through the area without incident though authorities will be closely monitoring demonstration activities.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 12 July 2007

[Plus]

no what I see is anything smelling like democracy being tainted with a pro TRT brush and washed away . thats what I see .

The original anti-coup activists have apparenlty joined hands with TRT stalwarts in the anti-referendum drive.

It's very easy to paint them all with one brush now, and I don't see why people shouldn't.

Their alternative to CNS' plan for referendum and elections is a one big unknown that will be taken over by TRT in no time, just like their original anti-coup rallies, do you think people want that?

According to all polls people want certainty and elections. Time to move on.

[John K]

The standoff ended when female demonstrators were used to persuade soldiers to stand down.

I wonder just how that persuasion was achieved.

[Mid]

The original anti-coup activists have apparenlty joined hands with TRT stalwarts in the anti-referendum drive.

It's very easy to paint them all with one brush now, and I don't see why people shouldn't.

JHC , apparently is good enough for you .................................

[thedude]

Thanks for pointing that out Plus, actually if you read my posts all the way back from before the coup, you'd know that I have been a consistent supporter of Thaksin. I have nothing to apologise for because it's not me who is blinded by all the propaganda and hearsay and unproven allegations. [Well that is open to debate and due process] So long are there is the presumption of guilt, there can be no "due process", the Thaksin lynch mob don't seem to get this simple concept.

I'd say the vast majority of the junta apologists [by the by I'm not apologising for anyone, my view is that Thaksin was a disaster for democracy and fair governance for the people {all the people} of the country. You are entitled to have an incorrect view. You also make the mistake of assuming that those who view Thaksin as toxic to the body politic are somehow automatic supporters of the Junta, that is, to borrow your own phrase 'selective reasoning'] Rubbish, I made no such assumption. I am merely addressing the junta apologist. I am fully aware that there are those who were less enamoured by Thaksin who are now also against the junta, posters like Colpyat and younghusband come to mind. here on the board don't know what (or who) they are actually supporting. They've got their right mistaken for their left, [Given the structure here the use of labels such as these does suggest you are also lacking in an appreciation of the subtleties here, realistically the majority here are, to borrow a term 'somewhat right of Attila the Hun'] Okay you seem to have missed my subtlety, to make it clearer for you, i was pointing out that those who imagined the coup would reinstate greater democracy are mistaken because the military have in fact pranced on a long absent opportunity to reinstate the conservative right wing. Geddit? that's because most such forumers have no understanding of Thai history and the context to which the coup really occurred, thinking that the Thaksin witch hunt is for real. How many Thai leaders have been exiled before with allegations of graft, murder etc? How many were actually convicted? [in this case, the issue is that with a notable exception, former leaders have exited and remained silent. In Thakisn's case he has been active in a manner designed to cause the Junta maximum discomfort] You are saying this from a junta sympathiser's perspective, has it occured to you that if the coup were legal and legitimate, the junta would not be feeling any discomfort as you describe? I think your argument has not only betrayed a lack of objectivity but you have unwittingly exposed an inherent guilt.

Thaksin didn't invent the system of patronage needed to amass power under this culture, when he is favoured it is all legitimate, [Not so, or are you now having selective memory.] when he is not, it's turned around and called corruption. Junta apologists are living the double standard every day, its not like there is no vice and corruption in the streets of Bangkok this very moment. Its selective reasoning. [No, what it is a careful analysis of the results of Thaksins period in power, the divisiveness created by the application of polices designed more to create a NEW patronage system, by replacing the effectively feudal conduits with political {TRT only} ones.] Right you are. I have no problem with the view that he replaced "effectively feudal conduits" but it was not a new system of patronage, its just that the players have changed.

They overthrew Thaksin on some land deal in Ratchada that wasn't even on the original list of alleged wrongdoing, if there were really some big smoking gun, it wouldn't have taken 10 months. [Again no, this is simplistic beyond believe. The Junta first worked on the accepted principals of these actions within Thai history, once Thaksin chose to go outside them, then the focus changed. I am confused. What were these "accepted priciples", were they within the constitution? please quote. these mysterious priciples which thaksin seemed to have breached, were they decided on BEFORE the coup? what was it you said about "due process"? please go back to para 1 and read the red bits. Further, the integration of questionable practices within the Thaksin government became endemic, with careful structuring designed to maximise the position of the chosen few. For example? In addition, by grooming of individuals {prior to taking office} within the bureaux of state, it became easy to treat matters on the 'Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?' basis. This created the 'heads down' atmosphere which has permeated all investigations thus far, it's sometimes described as the Neutral Gear.] Not only is this not unique to Thailand, this is not unique to politics as a whole. Yawn.

They are just making it up as they go along. so they bought a piece of land from a state agency, [One is tempted to draw an analogous parallel between the US dealing with Organised Crime, go for transactions, tax, and put them in jail that way.] big spanking deal, you think the extra 25% boost in the military spending budget will be audited? You think general Surayud never benefited from his position? [Care to elucidate this?] Every military coup has directly resulted in an increased military budget, since it is a way to split the proceeds amongst the generals as payback for taking the risk. And since this is not official income but state expenditure, they wont be paying any tax on it either, just like thaksin's share sale in Shin. There are dozens of multi-millionaire generals in thailand with mansions, luxury cars, private businesses, special contracts and concessions, holiday homes, super model mistresses etc. this is not the west. the generals have for decades run ilicit businesses like arms traffic, opium production in the hills, smuggling of goods across borders, gambling rackets, often doing business with mob bosses whom they helped protect. want to know the truth behind the drug killings now blamed on thaksin? ask these guys. by extension, guys like surayud and even prem have either benefitted or were complicit in allowing corruption to thrive in order to gain power and maintain their hold on it.

Why do you think so many want to be policeman or soldiers in Thailand? The high pay? Their noble need to provide justice and security? No, because for the non-elite, it represents the only way to gain a position higher than peasants, merchants, professionals and bureaucrats, it gives power, prestige, untouchability, and a good share of "patronage" money. [Here you are misunderstanding what patronage is and is not. You were correct that the forces both military & civil were a route but as with people coming to Bangkok expecting to get work, the recruitment is almost exclusively now by reference and referral.] There is no misunderstanding, you are misleading the issue, i didnt say anybody who wants to be a cop or soldier could be one. Not all cops are overtly corrupt but the higher ranking ones all have special priviledges. Even a lowly neighbourhood cop can get by on petty bribes and all manner of street level perks, which is why the common folks would aspire to joining them.

How on earth can a constitution that undermines leaderships and supports a revolving door of coalition governments ever be considered to be good for the country? Why are people letting it happen? [Contrary to your analysis, the new constitution is being designed to reduce the power of the PM. The issue here is that, whilst I think it's a bad move, the abuse {which you seem incapable of seeing} of the '97 charter, which had been designed to place greater power {and concomitant responsibility} in the hands of the PM. Unfortunately, Thaksin's decision was to take the power and forget the responsibility {and by the by his oath of office}.] Your response demonstrates your lack of understanding of the 97 charter. Why did the 97 charter make it harder to push for a NCM? Because the drafters were perfectly aware that it was used as a tool by coalition members to extort or otherwise derail policies, resulting in a long succession of revolving door coalitions as everyone took turns to ride the gravy train. It basically encourages people to be in politics for the wrong reason. It is reasoned that if one had a solid mandate (as thaksin certainly did) he should not be hampared from policy making and should very well be left alone to carry out his policy platform, which is what he is elected to do. Thaksin worked so well within the rules that his party amassed enough seats to have to do away with undue interference from opposition. thailand sorely needs a stable government able to carry a single term in office and see through its policies, because thailand is loosing out to its neighbours in competitiveness. anyone who supports a constitution that encourages weak coalitions is not thinking for the long term benefit of the nation. if the problem with thaksin's rule was a weak system of institutional checks and balances, then they should be improved, but it doesn't require a weakening of the government's decision making aparatus. in the case of the constitutional changes, it reflects the military's desire to hold on to the balance of power and undermine civic perogatives. They are trying to sell us the idea that unstable governments are better than stable ones. How? By raising the spectre of Thaksin the bogeyman who completely abused his power, look...he er, bought some land in Ratchada! [Again people are not that stupid, you choose to see things in a singular light, that is your right.]

The fear of power abuse is given as a reason to undermine progress under a unified government? It completely baffles me that people don't question it. [Again no that is not the contention, nor the likely result. It is probable that coalitions may again be a factor in politics here, but that may well offer a better reflection of the situation. One possible advantage of the Thaksin experience may, and yes it is a big may, act as a stimulus for a more cohesive political landscape.]

The present mode of thinking is completely regressive and not in tune with the needs of a progressive society. [There I agree with you, but this is not a progressive society and has not been for decades {ever?}. Equally, you appear to forget that Thaksin, on the basis of the '97 charter had it in his power to make fundamental changes to the 'social infrastructure' and yet again he choose not to do the things that are difficult.]

The so called 'old powers' for people in the know are anything BUT Thaksin's regime. [Again I agree that this curious attempt at Orwellian nomenclature, does no one any good]

Regards

[aaaaaa]

one simple question. Why shouldnt he be prosecuted if he has done something wrong?

yes, I agree - if some- or anyone does something (or especially MANY things) wrong - he should and even must be procecuted. be it Thaksin, or Gen Suchinda, or enyone else.

however this "should" question is more like theoretical or even rethorical, not so practical, sort of : can he be procecuted in principle or not, is it the right thing to do. or something like that.

now, I think the more realistic question is: why they are NOT being procecuted?

I mean, look at actual facts: ever since the coup, already almost a year ago, they New "new power" (which, as Plus simply explained is nothing else than Old "old power" ) has started to trumpet that Thaksin is this and that, theat they'll bring him to justice for so many things (Suvarnabhum was one of the biggest acusations I think - that is after non-paying taxes for Shin corp. issue). yet somehow as recent posts here point out, the only thing he is more or less seriously charged with now is that land on Ratchada....

so, does that mean that all the previous charges were ungrounded or what? I mean - read all those threads and posts about millions of Baht he was charged for stealing or whatever... WHY I ask he wasn't procecuted - all those things were false then?

one thing comes to mind in this regard: that not everything is so plain and transperent. more likely, Thaksin was and is relaxed and as Plus said, blatantly arrogant and perhaps shameless, in the face of all the former and present charges - because those very charges are not so simple in the sense that they involve many other people and most likely on both sides of battlefiled (new VS old powers - whatever their current terms are ! ). Thaksin was both police chap and media tycon - which gave him a lot of facility to know many things about many people, of course particularly those who are key players in old/new powers.

so, to bring him to justice is more likely not so simple matter, because it would bring up many other matters, which many other people won't so easy about.

therefore, one by one, all the cases and charges against him are revised or dropped. of course, to safe face, present "new power" has to at least charge him with something. perhaps he has even made an agreement with them, sort of : "alright, sports, for the sake of mutual safety, I accept that you need to charge me at least with something. Ok, let it be this land case. if it is something bigger - well, then I'll also respond with bigger facts about you..."

I mean, they definetely know each other, all of them, and more - recognize as a power players. Sonthi (the media mogul, not the one who's general) was Thaksin's Pal for a long time and as I recall, supporter till some happenstance. Sonthi who's general, was appointed by Thaksin himself, and I remember he said that he had a phone conversation with Thaksin just before a coup, which was in quite cool if not completely friendly manner. I mean - there wasn't and perhaps still isn't much antagonism between them, simply Sonthi did and does his job given to him by others... surely even Thaksin understands that. and I bet that is why the coup itself was bloodless - because certain accord was achived, compromised, forced, but nevertheless some sort of agreement.

so, I think it is nothing new but the never ending football game, where the ball is power - old "new power" becomes new "new power", then after a while positions change, and it goes in cycles. more like republicans and democrats play it elsewhere ! or what's that - Labour party and other yet again elsewhere?

the players might change (or at least their positions, like in the second half of football match) - the game remains the same: who'll posess the "ball" longer and more efficiently - score more "goals". and in the end, those scores what does realy matter. well, at least for players themselves.

would/should/can/must or NOT they be procecuted and how and to which extent - matters not much to them, at least while game goes on. after scores are made - then they might try to pay attention to that. later, after scores achived ...

[aaaaaa]

In regards to previous wrong-doing PM's.... perhaps it's time for some new thinking...

Last month, prosecutors filed corruption charges against Mr. Thaksin and his wife in the Supreme Court, the first time criminal charges have ever been filed against a former premier in the Kingdom.

- The Nation

thanks for interesting fact, SJ

wow! what a revelation

so, that means T. is the most mean evil ever among all Thai PMs ? I mean, if all others were not, and only him was decided to be procecuted ...

very interesting to see the outcome of this criminal charge !

[Siripon]

Thanks for pointing that out Plus, actually if you read my posts all the way back from before the coup, you'd know that I have been a consistent supporter of Thaksin. I have nothing to apologise for because it's not me who is blinded by all the propaganda and hearsay and unproven allegations. [Well that is open to debate and due process] So long are there is the presumption of guilt, there can be no "due process", the Thaksin lynch mob don't seem to get this simple concept.

I'd say the vast majority of the junta apologists [by the by I'm not apologising for anyone, my view is that Thaksin was a disaster for democracy and fair governance for the people {all the people} of the country. You are entitled to have an incorrect view. You also make the mistake of assuming that those who view Thaksin as toxic to the body politic are somehow automatic supporters of the Junta, that is, to borrow your own phrase 'selective reasoning'] Rubbish, I made no such assumption. I am merely addressing the junta apologist. I am fully aware that there are those who were less enamoured by Thaksin who are now also against the junta, posters like Colpyat and younghusband come to mind. here on the board don't know what (or who) they are actually supporting. They've got their right mistaken for their left, [Given the structure here the use of labels such as these does suggest you are also lacking in an appreciation of the subtleties here, realistically the majority here are, to borrow a term 'somewhat right of Attila the Hun'] Okay you seem to have missed my subtlety, to make it clearer for you, i was pointing out that those who imagined the coup would reinstate greater democracy are mistaken because the military have in fact pranced on a long absent opportunity to reinstate the conservative right wing. Geddit? that's because most such forumers have no understanding of Thai history and the context to which the coup really occurred, thinking that the Thaksin witch hunt is for real. How many Thai leaders have been exiled before with allegations of graft, murder etc? How many were actually convicted? [in this case, the issue is that with a notable exception, former leaders have exited and remained silent. In Thakisn's case he has been active in a manner designed to cause the Junta maximum discomfort] You are saying this from a junta sympathiser's perspective, has it occured to you that if the coup were legal and legitimate, the junta would not be feeling any discomfort as you describe? I think your argument has not only betrayed a lack of objectivity but you have unwittingly exposed an inherent guilt.

Thaksin didn't invent the system of patronage needed to amass power under this culture, when he is favoured it is all legitimate, [Not so, or are you now having selective memory.] when he is not, it's turned around and called corruption. Junta apologists are living the double standard every day, its not like there is no vice and corruption in the streets of Bangkok this very moment. Its selective reasoning. [No, what it is a careful analysis of the results of Thaksins period in power, the divisiveness created by the application of polices designed more to create a NEW patronage system, by replacing the effectively feudal conduits with political {TRT only} ones.] Right you are. I have no problem with the view that he replaced "effectively feudal conduits" but it was not a new system of patronage, its just that the players have changed.

They overthrew Thaksin on some land deal in Ratchada that wasn't even on the original list of alleged wrongdoing, if there were really some big smoking gun, it wouldn't have taken 10 months. [Again no, this is simplistic beyond believe. The Junta first worked on the accepted principals of these actions within Thai history, once Thaksin chose to go outside them, then the focus changed. I am confused. What were these "accepted priciples", were they within the constitution? please quote. these mysterious priciples which thaksin seemed to have breached, were they decided on BEFORE the coup? what was it you said about "due process"? please go back to para 1 and read the red bits. Further, the integration of questionable practices within the Thaksin government became endemic, with careful structuring designed to maximise the position of the chosen few. For example? In addition, by grooming of individuals {prior to taking office} within the bureaux of state, it became easy to treat matters on the 'Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?' basis. This created the 'heads down' atmosphere which has permeated all investigations thus far, it's sometimes described as the Neutral Gear.] Not only is this not unique to Thailand, this is not unique to politics as a whole. Yawn.

They are just making it up as they go along. so they bought a piece of land from a state agency, [One is tempted to draw an analogous parallel between the US dealing with Organised Crime, go for transactions, tax, and put them in jail that way.] big spanking deal, you think the extra 25% boost in the military spending budget will be audited? You think general Surayud never benefited from his position? [Care to elucidate this?] Every military coup has directly resulted in an increased military budget, since it is a way to split the proceeds amongst the generals as payback for taking the risk. And since this is not official income but state expenditure, they wont be paying any tax on it either, just like thaksin's share sale in Shin. There are dozens of multi-millionaire generals in thailand with mansions, luxury cars, private businesses, special contracts and concessions, holiday homes, super model mistresses etc. this is not the west. the generals have for decades run ilicit businesses like arms traffic, opium production in the hills, smuggling of goods across borders, gambling rackets, often doing business with mob bosses whom they helped protect. want to know the truth behind the drug killings now blamed on thaksin? ask these guys. by extension, guys like surayud and even prem have either benefitted or were complicit in allowing corruption to thrive in order to gain power and maintain their hold on it.

Why do you think so many want to be policeman or soldiers in Thailand? The high pay? Their noble need to provide justice and security? No, because for the non-elite, it represents the only way to gain a position higher than peasants, merchants, professionals and bureaucrats, it gives power, prestige, untouchability, and a good share of "patronage" money. [Here you are misunderstanding what patronage is and is not. You were correct that the forces both military & civil were a route but as with people coming to Bangkok expecting to get work, the recruitment is almost exclusively now by reference and referral.] There is no misunderstanding, you are misleading the issue, i didnt say anybody who wants to be a cop or soldier could be one. Not all cops are overtly corrupt but the higher ranking ones all have special priviledges. Even a lowly neighbourhood cop can get by on petty bribes and all manner of street level perks, which is why the common folks would aspire to joining them.

How on earth can a constitution that undermines leaderships and supports a revolving door of coalition governments ever be considered to be good for the country? Why are people letting it happen? [Contrary to your analysis, the new constitution is being designed to reduce the power of the PM. The issue here is that, whilst I think it's a bad move, the abuse {which you seem incapable of seeing} of the '97 charter, which had been designed to place greater power {and concomitant responsibility} in the hands of the PM. Unfortunately, Thaksin's decision was to take the power and forget the responsibility {and by the by his oath of office}.] Your response demonstrates your lack of understanding of the 97 charter. Why did the 97 charter make it harder to push for a NCM? Because the drafters were perfectly aware that it was used as a tool by coalition members to extort or otherwise derail policies, resulting in a long succession of revolving door coalitions as everyone took turns to ride the gravy train. It basically encourages people to be in politics for the wrong reason. It is reasoned that if one had a solid mandate (as thaksin certainly did) he should not be hampared from policy making and should very well be left alone to carry out his policy platform, which is what he is elected to do. Thaksin worked so well within the rules that his party amassed enough seats to have to do away with undue interference from opposition. thailand sorely needs a stable government able to carry a single term in office and see through its policies, because thailand is loosing out to its neighbours in competitiveness. anyone who supports a constitution that encourages weak coalitions is not thinking for the long term benefit of the nation. if the problem with thaksin's rule was a weak system of institutional checks and balances, then they should be improved, but it doesn't require a weakening of the government's decision making aparatus. in the case of the constitutional changes, it reflects the military's desire to hold on to the balance of power and undermine civic perogatives. They are trying to sell us the idea that unstable governments are better than stable ones. How? By raising the spectre of Thaksin the bogeyman who completely abused his power, look...he er, bought some land in Ratchada! [Again people are not that stupid, you choose to see things in a singular light, that is your right.]

The fear of power abuse is given as a reason to undermine progress under a unified government? It completely baffles me that people don't question it. [Again no that is not the contention, nor the likely result. It is probable that coalitions may again be a factor in politics here, but that may well offer a better reflection of the situation. One possible advantage of the Thaksin experience may, and yes it is a big may, act as a stimulus for a more cohesive political landscape.]

The present mode of thinking is completely regressive and not in tune with the needs of a progressive society. [There I agree with you, but this is not a progressive society and has not been for decades {ever?}. Equally, you appear to forget that Thaksin, on the basis of the '97 charter had it in his power to make fundamental changes to the 'social infrastructure' and yet again he choose not to do the things that are difficult.]

The so called 'old powers' for people in the know are anything BUT Thaksin's regime. [Again I agree that this curious attempt at Orwellian nomenclature, does no one any good]

Regards

There is a due process, cases are investigated by the AEC, Assets Investigation Committee, forwarded for a decision about prosecution and then sent to the courts or not. The Dude, did you listen to the verdict against TRT regarding dissolution? Every step of the case was clearly explained on air.

The cases against Thaksin and his wife, whether it's Ratchada, the tax avoidance regarding paying Bannapot, the tax avoidance regarding sale to Temasek using Ample Rich, the favoured loan to Burma through the Exim bank, the changes in law to benefit AIS, the misuse of the lottery funds, The CTX scanners and King Power deals at Suwanapum- all have to pass due process that is legally justifiable.

The drugs' killings and the state murders in the south are of course another issue.

Civil society in Thailand is strong, that's why Thaksin was overthrown and the same applies to the junta. They know perfectly well they can't stay beyond the deadlines, which is why Sonthi is looking for a safehouse now, it's no good looking in 2 elections' time for a haven, his power will be meaningless by then, he needs a place now to protect himself, preferably in a well established party.

TRT can come back, their relatives can run in the next election, if the party is truly a party of the people they will win. It's just they will have to be prepared to be monitored and answer for their actions, something their former leader knew he couldn't do.

History books are no use in this case. Thailand has changed from the days of Pibun and Thanom, society is more transparent and demanding.

[Plus]

The number of cases against Thaksin in various stages of preparation is staggering, and these are the only selected "sure" cases as AEC has limited time and resources. Thaksin won't outlast the combined jail term, if it ever comes to that.

On the other hand the punishments will be spead evenly over all his family members as he used them as shields/nominees.

I don't think the junta feels discomfort because they deep down inside they know they did a wrong, illegal, and illiegitimate thing. On the contary they appear vindicated and proud of their courage (they faced treason charges if failed). I think Sonthi's conscioseness is clear - he feels he did the right thing.

So long are there is the presumption of guilt, there can be no "due process", the Thaksin lynch mob don't seem to get this simple concept.

Presumption of innocence is for the courts, not for discussion boards. Blanket ban on blaming Thaksin for this or that until his guilt is proven in the courts is ridiculous.

Most posters base their accusations on what is reported in the media.

[John K]

Plus I see your point but with Thaksin we can clearly see the results of his actions, proving the method is the difficult part.

Scientist around the world are looking for cures for a variety of illnesses as the illness is visible like Alzheimers and cancer. To find the cure requires understanding the method the illness manifests and stop the process.

[hammered]

By the way while evryone gets way off topic, where have the ten thousand demonstrators at Sanam Luang gone?