Foreign ownership of house/land..... NPV calc for 30 year lease.... Usufruct with Thai law firm, no companies involved.

[donx]

I think most of the Thais willing to give you a 30 year lease see that, for them, the 30 years amounts to no longer owning the land. Yes, their heirs will inherit the land, but that doesn't help the current owner. And most of them want the money now and would probably be happy selling it to you. But since you can't own it, they can't sell it to you. However, they can lease it to you for 30 years and still receive the money now that they need.

 

I have a proposal for the OP. My wife and children are Thai. Find a piece of land that you want. Give my family member the money to buy the property with the condition that they lease the property to you for 30 years.

[amykat]

I really can’t stress enough how important it is to rent for maybe 3-5 years, if not forever, in order to learn about Thailand.  It is very doubtful that there is any house you will find now, that you will be happy in for 30 YEARS.  Things change quickly here, in ten years your location might be unrecognizable.  If you rent some homes and live here for some time, you will learn for yourself.  I moved every year due to problems the first 3 years.
 

Also, you are not in a good situation to be a buyer right now.  You know nothing, everybody knows you nothing, why do you think the number one question is “how long have been here?”  
 

It was so hard for me to find a good rental house the first time, even though so many “friends” wanted to help me, they all wanted to help me rent things that didn’t meet my needs, but that paid them good commission or that was owned by their family, and they would charge me 3 times normal rent.  I was so depressed to keep seeing such terrible or inappropriate things.  This was before the Internet had ads.  I had dogs and needed certain things.  

 

I guess it is just a process, you refine your skills over time.  I bought a house and by the time I did it, I was ready and I didn’t regret that house. I rented 3 houses before that.  
 

You aren’t ready!!  

[KhaoYai]

On 1/20/2022 at 5:37 PM, EricTh said:

What I know is that putting a usufruct is an extremely difficult task as the land office wants a valid reason. 

I had no problem with registering my Usufruct - when my lawyer went to the Land Office and told them straight.

[Berkshire]

On 1/27/2022 at 9:02 AM, rose33 said:

Really important to me to be living in nature close to the earth.

 

I don't object to owning a secondhand condo in my name, as "backup" accom... it's a nice feeling of security. But want to live day to day close to nature far from a city... and all the condos are in cities, of course. Thanks.

Not sure what city you're in, but in Chiang Mai, you can easily rent a house for about the same price as a condo.  You'll certainly be "living in nature close to the earth" with much less risk than buying.  Over time, you can figure out how to buy if that's what you still prefer. 

[BritManToo]

On 1/21/2022 at 12:28 AM, rose33 said:

I'm a middle aged female foreigner.... so the old "put it in your Thai spouse's name" suggestion is unlikely to work for me. Unfortunate, but true.

Marry a random Thai guy, as long as there is a family income of 15kbht/month after 2 years you can apply for Thai citizenship. 

They buy a house in your own name.

[EricTh]

19 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

I had no problem with registering my Usufruct - when my lawyer went to the Land Office and told them straight.

What is your relationship with the owner of the land?

[KhaoYai]

54 minutes ago, EricTh said:

What is your relationship with the owner of the land?

None

[EricTh]

3 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

None

BTW, anybody know what is the Thai word for usufruct? No Thai people I have met so far understand what is usufruct in English

[KhunLA]

13 minutes ago, EricTh said:

BTW, anybody know what is the Thai word for usufruct? No Thai people I have met so far understand what is usufruct in English

Maybe ... สิทธิเก็บกิน 

 

"สิทธิเก็บกิน (Usufruct) “สิทธิเก็บกิน” ตาม ป.พ.พ. มาตรา 1417"

http://www.lawfirm.in.th/usufruct.html#:~:text=สิทธิเก็บกิน (Usufruct),อำนาจจัดการทรัพย์สินนั้นได้ 

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, EricTh said:

BTW, anybody know what is the Thai word for usufruct? No Thai people I have met so far understand what is usufruct in English

In the Thai version of my agreement, its written in English, I don't think they have a word for it. It actually comes from the latin phrase 'Usus et Fructus' which means 'Use and Enjoyment'.

 

In your earlier posts, were you alluding to the viewpoint that a Usufructs legality is questionable if its granted to a husband by his wife?  I've heard of that but my lawyer said its incorrect.

 

I've heard that Phuket Land Office will not accept Usufucts - I will never understand how it is that individual offices can make their own rules up - both Land Offices and Immigration suffer from this problem and I wonder if anyone's ever had the courage to challenge them in the courts?  There is a law of the land and I would have thought all offices must abide by it..........but........T.I.T.

 

However, if someone has that problem and still wants some protection, many Land Offices will accept a foreign mortgage or charge over a property.  Such a loan could be called in, in the event of a break up but would of course, be subject to the rules on division of assets.  It is not unheard of for a wife to take a mortgage out on a property without her husband knowing.  Both a Usufruct and a mortgage would prevent that, provided they are duly registered.

 

When I first tried to register my Usufruct, the Land Office manageress refused, I didn't understand what she was saying so I have no idea why.  I went back with my lawyer, some stern talking and finger wagging took place and we left with my name and Usufuct registered on the channote.

 

Thinking about it, the word Usufruct is not present of my channote so there may well be a Thai word for it.

[EricTh]

5 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

In the Thai version of my agreement, its written in English, I don't think they have a word for it. It actually comes from the latin phrase 'Usus et Fructus' which means 'Use and Enjoyment'.

 

In your earlier posts, were you alluding to the viewpoint that a Usufructs legality is questionable if its granted to a husband by his wife?  I've heard of that but my lawyer said its incorrect.

 

I've heard that Phuket Land Office will not accept Usufucts - I will never understand how it is that individual offices can make their own rules up - both Land Offices and Immigration suffer from this problem and I wonder if anyone's ever had the courage to challenge them in the courts?  There is a law of the land and I would have thought all offices must abide by it..........but........T.I.T.

 

However, if someone has that problem and still wants some protection, many Land Offices will accept a foreign mortgage or charge over a property.  Such a loan could be called in, in the event of a break up but would of course, be subject to the rules on division of assets.  It is not unheard of for a wife to take a mortgage out on a property without her husband knowing.  Both a Usufruct and a mortgage would prevent that, provided they are duly registered.

 

When I first tried to register my Usufruct, the Land Office manageress refused, I didn't understand what she was saying so I have no idea why.  I went back with my lawyer, some stern talking and finger wagging took place and we left with my name and Usufuct registered on the channote.

 

Thinking about it, the word Usufruct is not present of my channote so there may well be a Thai word for it.

 

There were some discussions in this forum that some land offices would only approve it if there is a legal relationship between the owner and foreigner eg. husband and wife, child and father.

 

I asked about this in Chiang Mai land office before but was met with hostility by the officer who refused to explain further. It seems that some land offices don't like foreigners having names on the land title without a valid reason.

 

[KhaoYai]

28 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

There were some discussions in this forum that some land offices would only approve it if there is a legal relationship between the owner and foreigner eg. husband and wife, child and father.

 

I asked about this in Chiang Mai land office before but was met with hostility by the officer who refused to explain further. It seems that some land offices don't like foreigners having names on the land title without a valid reason.

 

Right, that may have been what the manageress at Pak Chong Land Office was trying on. Things were very different when I went with my lawyer - I would not attempt to do it again myself.  When it comes to land and property, Thai love Thai comes very much to the surface it seems.

 

Since then, several people have expressed surprise about my name being anywhere on the channote, some have even said they don't believe it. One, another Thai lawyer just 2 weeks ago, had to be shown the channote before he would believe it.  Its amazing how little Thai's know about the laws/documentation that foreigners can/cannot hold - and how much disinformation is spread by those beliefs.  Most Thai's aren't even aware that we can have a Yellow Tabien Baan.  I've even had one Thai man state that my Thai driving licence must be a Khaosan fake because he didn't know foreigners can have one.

[EricTh]

4 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Right, that may have been what the manageress at Pak Chong Land Office was trying on. Things were very different when I went with my lawyer - I would not attempt to do it again myself.  When it comes to land and property, Thai love Thai comes very much to the surface it seems.

 

Since then, several people have expressed surprise about my name being anywhere on the channote, some have even said they don't believe it. One, another Thai lawyer just 2 weeks ago, had to be shown the channote before he would believe it.  Its amazing how little Thai's know about the laws/documentation that foreigners can/cannot hold - and how much disinformation is spread by those beliefs.  Most Thai's aren't even aware that we can have a Yellow Tabien Baan.  I've even had one Thai man state that my Thai driving licence must be a Khaosan fake because he didn't know foreigners can have one.

 

Unluckily, your land office is in Pak Chong which might have a different attitude than the land office in Chiang Mai.

 

[rose33]

On 1/27/2022 at 10:22 AM, blackcab said:

 

There is often no logic to it at all. Why is unproductive farmland in Isaan priced more than productive farmland in the UK?

 

Or poorly designed and constructed condos in Bangkok priced more than similar but well designed properties in other major capital cities?

 

With 30 year leases these properties are usually in very specific locations where the owner will not sell for any money. An example would be beachside land or city centre land.

 

It's a case of the lessee must have the land so they are obliged to accept the terms of the lessor.

 

This is somewhat similar in your case if your ambition is the long term secure use of land or property.

 

So few people have 30 year residential leases on a house and land from a lessor they are not connected with in some way that you will fall into the unusual category. I think most sellers will try and leverage the situation and they will try and make you pay for what you want.

 

Be prepared to walk away from a few deals until you get what you want.

"There is often no logic to it at all."

 

Single best piece of advice I've received here so far. Often returns to mind.

 

Thank you blackcab.