wwest5829 Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 17 minutes ago, Thaijack2014 said: Probably, but most of the countries you mentioned have never belonged to the USSR. The Ukraine has and it got it's freedom. But slowly the Americans liked to put missiles in the countries around Russia. There seem to have been agreements that the Ukraine (which borders the major southern part of Russia) was not supposed to get those missiles. But the States likes to put their weapons and dominance all over the world. This time they went to far. That doesn't mean I agree with a war. Far from that, but maybe if those agreements would have taken seriously it would never have come to this. Each pf those countries cited were part of the Warsaw Pact, the USSR countermeasure to NATO in the democratic countries. Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1963 showed they were not free but under Russian domination. I do find a bit of irony in the Kievian Russia being the cited "Russia". should we view Ukraine as part of the USSR or Russia as part of Kievian Ukraine. I suppose you could make the same argument about Poland having been part of Russia. History is great but I have problems with overreaching ...China in the South China Sea, Russia in Crimean Ukraine. Biggest issue for me is a unilateral seizing of/invasion of a sovereign nation (recognized by Russia pre-Putin). It is up to the Ukrainian people to decide if they wish to join the EU and/or NATO. I am hopeful for a forced/agreed withdraw of all Russian military asset from the Ukraine nation, that include Donblas and Crimea. I would not be surprised if Ukraine offered to stay out of Nato in exchange. As to the Crimea ... I had favored a treaty with a long term lease of the Russian naval bases in return for guaranteed fuel from Russia. This would serve both their needs but , that is a matter for them to decide. As long as Russian military is in Ukraine, I am hopeful of overwhelming humanitarian and military supplies to better allow Ukrainians to defend their independence. With Putin overstepping, he has caused a backlash supporting a greater need to protect against Russian military actions (esp. Ukraine and Georgia). I also do agree with NATO staying out of any "no fly zones" but want Ukrainians being given Stingers and Javalin misses to shoot down the Russian air aggression. While we all need to be mindful of propaganda, well with massive social media from Ukrainian citizens the world is witnessing the Russian actions ... this will not be of benefit to Russian interests. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwest5829 Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 On 3/6/2022 at 4:19 PM, arithai12 said: No it's not justified, bunnydrops already said that. The point is that many on this forum subscribe to the convenient narrative that all Ucrainians are innocent, peaceful, democratic people who were invaded for no reason, while all the Russians are a bad lot that must be punished in mass. In fact, most Ucrainians are innocent peaceful and would like to be democratic, and so are most Russians. There are violent, nationalist, corrupt, oligarchic people on both sides of the border. A truth that is conveniently ignored by most of the western press and that does not suit NATO very well. And I repeat for those who cannot read: the invasion is not justified. Agreed. I think in reflection Putin screwed up ... big time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will B Good Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 Just now, wwest5829 said: Agreed. I think in reflection Putin screwed up ... big time. It is a monstrous cock-up....but he is bound to 'win'...eventually.......even if he bankrupts the Russian people and allows half his 2 million conscripts to die. NATO or any of its members will never get involved on the ground and he just has to keep pounding away. The most sensible thing now is a promise from Ukraine to never join NATO and reach a deal ceding the Russian speaking/cultural parts of Ukraine to Russia. Appeasement is not pleasant, but if it stops the slaughter what the hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwest5829 Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 On 3/2/2022 at 9:04 AM, StraightTalk said: Precisely. Neither had the Americans under JFK, LBJ, Reagan and the Bushes etc.! Thank you for relieving me, an American citizen from all responsibility and wrongs done by the USA ... wait, what? Doesn't wash ... sometimes actions are warranted and plenty of wrongful actions can be cited in many countries over time but ... The citizens of each country are responsible whether they support or acquiesce to the leadership's actions. Citizens everywhere can overwhelm and throw the bums out ... if they get their bellyful. This too can be seen in history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwest5829 Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 On 3/2/2022 at 8:55 AM, StraightTalk said: Yes, but NATO is! I cannot disagree. NATOs purpose is to defend against Russian military actions such as the one currently underway in the invasion of the Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwest5829 Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 On 3/2/2022 at 9:44 AM, StraightTalk said: Did anyone seriously think that Cuba would ever have invaded USA... No more than Latvia invading Russia. The threat then, as you state, has to be NATO invading Russia. In the case of Cuba ... it was Russian missiles not Cuba that was the threat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwest5829 Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 On 3/2/2022 at 10:55 AM, AustinRacing said: I’m a bit confused. I thought Russian banks are sanctioned not the Ukrainians. Why are the Ukrainians having money transaction problems? Enlighten me. My guess concerning Ukrainians would be more affected by Ukraine air space being closed by the Russian invasion. airlines they came with not available for their return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david555 Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 2 hours ago, Will B Good said: It is a monstrous cock-up....but he is bound to 'win'...eventually.......even if he bankrupts the Russian people and allows half his 2 million conscripts to die. NATO or any of its members will never get involved on the ground and he just has to keep pounding away. The most sensible thing now is a promise from Ukraine to never join NATO and reach a deal ceding the Russian speaking/cultural parts of Ukraine to Russia. Appeasement is not pleasant, but if it stops the slaughter what the hell. So a recipe for Putin to go for those other no NATO countrys of former Ussr.. to re enlist them .....? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will B Good Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 1 hour ago, david555 said: So a recipe for Putin to go for those other no NATO countrys of former Ussr.. to re enlist them .....? Moldova next? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunglom Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 6 hours ago, Will B Good said: It is a monstrous cock-up....but he is bound to 'win'...eventually.......even if he bankrupts the Russian people and allows half his 2 million conscripts to die. NATO or any of its members will never get involved on the ground and he just has to keep pounding away. The most sensible thing now is a promise from Ukraine to never join NATO and reach a deal ceding the Russian speaking/cultural parts of Ukraine to Russia. Appeasement is not pleasant, but if it stops the slaughter what the hell. " he is bound to 'win'.. win? - it's one thing to occupy a country, it's another to stay there and stay in control. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david555 Posted March 16, 2022 Share Posted March 16, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, Will B Good said: Moldova next? Unless they break Putin power like now shows latest reports from Ukraine vicrorys on the retreating Russians ( latest reports of destroyed Russian multiple rocket launchers and helicopters ...) and today Russia need to pay big debts ...risking to default and so a kind of bankrupty... Those toys from the west seems to be good handled by the Ukraine soldiers ....???? They seem to defeated a whole Russian division .... https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1581533/Ukraine-Military-video-Russia-army-Satellite-video-strike-NLAW-VN Edited March 16, 2022 by david555 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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