He believes the teaching is obvious. Once Awakened (quenching of desire) it's all over!

[rockyysdt]

Whilst chatting with a proclaimed  Buddhist the topic turned to "that which is born must die" & "cessation of the cycle of rebirth once quenching of desire & attachment takes place".

 

His firm belief is that once quenching takes place (awakening) then this is the last birth cycle and as we are both impermanent  and conditioned then upon cessation there is nothing more . 

 

I tried to explain that the Buddha would not be drawn into Nibana other than its a state,  not a place, and "that which was never born can never die - deathless", and that being fixed  on any view is attachment. 

 

He became agitated and reinforced that it was very clear to him. 

 

Basically  he was saying,  in different  words, that Awakening leads to annihilation.

I said,  why would someone  devote their life or lives living an ascetic life with the reward resulting in your final incarnation  (rebirth). 

Then if awakening results in annihilation then surely  wouldn't a procession of rebirth birth (even if it includes suffering at times) be preferable. 

 

My contentions  are "what is common  between all (countless) rebirths", "what is awakened", and "that which was never born  can never die".

 

He said that  I am quoting English terms, and that he was suggesting  mistranslation, as the Buddha used Sanskrit. 

 

Looking for your thoughts. 

 

[khaowong1]

Not exactly sure what you are asking.  I try and get my answers from Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's teachings. Are you asking about Nibbana or Awakening?  

[rockyysdt]

19 hours ago, khaowong1 said:

Not exactly sure what you are asking.  I try and get my answers from Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's teachings. Are you asking about Nibbana or Awakening?  

Hi K.

 

I guess I'm asking, does stopping the final rebirth by Awakening, result in the annihilation of that which is common to all rebirths associated with a lineage, and what becomes Awakened, if the lineage ceases?

[khaowong1]

Hard questions to answer

 

Insight into the Four Noble Truths is here called awakening. The monk (bhikkhu) has "... attained the unattained supreme security from bondage." Awakening is also described as synonymous with Nirvana, the extinction of the passions whereby suffering is ended and no more rebirths take place.  However, I've also heard it said, only Monks can really attain true awakening.  And concerning rebirths, I've also heard that no more rebirths can be possible until all the past Karma of all your past lives have been extinguished.  Like I said, difficult questions to answer.  

[rockyysdt]

On 3/9/2022 at 2:37 AM, khaowong1 said:

Hard questions to answer

 

Insight into the Four Noble Truths is here called awakening. The monk (bhikkhu) has "... attained the unattained supreme security from bondage." Awakening is also described as synonymous with Nirvana, the extinction of the passions whereby suffering is ended and no more rebirths take place.  However, I've also heard it said, only Monks can really attain true awakening.  And concerning rebirths, I've also heard that no more rebirths can be possible until all the past Karma of all your past lives have been extinguished.  Like I said, difficult questions to answer.  

I suppose there is only one way to attempt to find out.

Follow the 8 fold path and attain Awakening before death.

 

The unanswerable questions I have are:

 

• There's rebirth, but if we are impermanent, conditioned and subject to death, who/what is reborn?
•  
• If, through the quenching of desire, there's cessation of suffering (Nibanna), who/what no longer suffers?
•  
• If who/what doesn't exist then if the cycle of rebirth ends then isn't this akin to annihilation?
•  
• Conversely if who/what exists, the who/what is who/what doesn't exist?

 

If there is no permanent who/what, then the cessation of rebirth isn't desirable.

Living includes suffering, but also good moments (positive karma & negative karma).

Cessation of rebirth can definitely end suffering, but then, there will also no longer be one reborn, eliminating the opportunity to enjoy positive experiences.