Thai Roads: The carnage continues with 3,145 dead 'at scene' so far this year

[actonion]

With many Thai's struggling  with finances, and vehicle road accidents ongoing, i wonder  who pays the hospital bills  for these people.?

 

It  has been suggested by this government that  rising costs in hospitals are because of foreigners  running away from their hospital bills, not any hospital i have ever attended,  where i have had to pay in advance for any overnight stays

[morrobay]

On 3/19/2022 at 11:37 PM, Thunglom said:

People have been going on about "attitude" bad driving" and racist remarks about Thai people for years - but nothing has changed, has it. About time they realised they have got it wrong.

Now that's what I call an imagination. The  reason nothing has changed is because Thai people never admit they are wrong and continue their reckless lack of common sense driving . Has nothing whatsoever to do with the folks calling spades spades. You have set a new Thai apologist record with that one.

[Thunglom]

8 hours ago, impulse said:

I agree with that.

 

But I think the most important takeaway is that throwing your leg over a scooter is 50x as dangerous (per mile) as fastening a seatbelt.  And though helmets are a good idea, you cross the safety Rubicon when you choose a 2 wheeler, not when you decide whether to put on a helmet or not.  Even with a helmet reducing your risk by 40%, it's still about 30x as dangerous as a car.

 

So I chuckle when I read scooter drivers bashing anyone for not wearing a helmet.

 

That's my recurring PSA, and if one rider reads that and decides to buy a car instead of a scooter, or even takes a taxi instead of a motosai, I chalk it up as a win.

the increased vulnerability of 2-wheeled vehicles is inherently the same throughout the world - it is what governments do to mitigate this that is important.

[Thunglom]

6 hours ago, morrobay said:

Now that's what I call an imagination. The  reason nothing has changed is because Thai people never admit they are wrong and continue their reckless lack of common sense driving . Has nothing whatsoever to do with the folks calling spades spades. You have set a new Thai apologist record with that one.

There are some people who are just too prejudiced and ill-informed to discuss this topic with. "Thai apologist"? - I ask you!!

[Thunglom]

7 hours ago, Stygge said:

Sweden
Really about 20 factors that makes the difference. Non of them involving lucky amulets as sole protection.
But mostly because the government has a zero death vision. And because no one think destiny or a higher power decide these things. Our own behavior in traffic make the difference.
 

Yes! Yes! Yes! - Sweden has a road death ratios of around 2.2 per 100k which makes it one of the lowest in the world.

there is a reason for this -and  you mention this -  is the "Vision Zero" policy currently implemented in Sweden and many countries around the world.

 

Sweden is the home of the "Safe System" - this is a scientific approach to road safety that has been adopted by almost every country with single figure deaths per 100k on their roads.

It is the ONLY way that Thailand will improve their road safety record.

 

This is the UK  take on it

"The Safe System goal and strategy represents an ambitious safety performance level and current best practice safety culture in road safety. The approach has evolved over many years and derives most notably from the Swedish Vision Zero and Dutch Sustainable Safety strategies and the concepts and good practice in other fields. Safe System embraces well-established safety principles and building on demonstrably effective practice using innovative solutions and new technologies. It is being taken up increasingly in Europe, Australasia and North America at regional, national levels and city levels."  - https://www.pacts.org.uk/safe-system/

 

What is the Safe System

The Safe System is an approach to road safety which puts the human being at its centre and which stems from the belief that every road death or serious injury is preventable. 

The Safe System approach is built upon two basic facts about people. 

people make mistakes, and will make mistakes when on the roads

people are vulnerable to being killed or seriously injured, if they are involved in a crash.

The Safe System recognises these facts and seeks to design them out of the equation. 

Put simply, this means that all elements of the road system - vehicles, infrastructure, speed limits, road users, and post-crash care - work together as one to minimise the chance of a crash, or, if a crash does take place, to prevent death or serious injury from occurring. - https://www.brake.org.uk/get-involved/take-action/mybrake/knowledge-centre/safe-system

 

There are 45 elements to the =safe system that can be categorised as the "5 Es"

1. Education

2. Enforcement

3. Engineering

4. Emergency

5. Evaluation

 

THERE IS A SIDE EFECT OF THIS SYTEM!!

It works very well and addresses ALL aspects of road safety but PEOPLE ARE OFTEN UNAWARE of its existence .

the result is that people many interpret their country's success being due to themselves as "good drivers" - THIS IS NOT HOW IT WORKS - the safe system recognises the fallibility of drivers - (whether it is St Christopher medals or animist amulets or any other higher power or just bigotry) and sets about protecting them from themselves.

 

It has been recommended over 3 decades that the Thai government implements this system yet they have stubbornly refused to take it up - the result is there has been no change in road death and injury rates for nearly 30 years.

 

[Thunglom]

erratum:  - there are 5 elements not 45

[TropicalGuy]

On 3/19/2022 at 9:42 AM, new2here said:

My opinion is that these kinds of events are somehow seen in this society as just “happening” as if to imply that there’s no control over them - vis a vis, like an act of God; versus something that’s largely controllable 

… and therefore like acts of god, there’s little true outrage - thus no real political nor social movement to address the issue… it is what it is if you will… because it’s not a problem.. it’s just something that happened.

 

i think until society collectively views these cases as largely avoidable and controllable, it won’t change … 

 

 

Correct. Culture is All here. No effective Laws or Rules. Culture is Ancient Passive Fatalistic with No Life Value so No Prevention. Die then get Reborn , what’s the Problem ? ????????Zero Modernity or Quality here ( except Medicine) apart from superficial use of Tech without understanding it’s true benefits.

 

Everybody does the minimum work to get quickly to maximum Money. That’s why there are no Building or Education Standards here with all Builders self taught or learnt from family and most govt teachers are useless. That’s also why Road Safety will always be Poor. 
 

 

[Thunglom]

2 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

Correct. Culture is All here. No effective Laws or Rules. Culture is Ancient Passive Fatalistic with No Life Value so No Prevention. Die then get Reborn , what’s the Problem ? ????????Zero Modernity or Quality here ( except Medicine) apart from superficial use of Tech without understanding it’s true benefits.

 

Everybody does the minimum work to get quickly to maximum Money. That’s why there are no Building or Education Standards here with all Builders self taught or learnt from family and most govt teachers are useless. That’s also why Road Safety will always be Poor. 
 

 

this is just an example of the mis-use of the word "culture" - to put forward a racist point of view.

[Thunglom]

On 3/19/2022 at 3:16 AM, law ling said:

Shocking numbers, which would be more shocking if they added:

 

1. subsequent deaths (not at the scene), and

 

2. those who survive, but left with life-changing injuries.

When annual stistics ae collated by people like th WHO, there is no limitt on when a death is added, However Thailand has failed for 30 years to set up a complete and effective statistics gathering system. This means that police statistics are given far more weight than they should have. It also means that there has been no recording nationally of the 3 categories of injury - fatal, serious and minor.

There is also no real calibration of accidents.

It is estimated that road crashes cost about 8% of GDP - this is in medical costs, damage to property, work lost, family bread earners lost and the cost of debilitating injuries.

[Virt]

The war lasted about a month in Ukraine and 1000 civilians officially were killed by Russian bombs in that period, which is a complete tragedy.

 

Meanwhile in Thailand the same number of civilians dies in traffic and that's just daily life.

[TropicalGuy]

12 hours ago, Thunglom said:

this is just an example of the mis-use of the word "culture" - to put forward a racist point of view.

No. Observable Facts, well known to Thais.

[TropicalGuy]

11 hours ago, Thunglom said:

When annual stistics ae collated by people like th WHO, there is no limitt on when a death is added, However Thailand has failed for 30 years to set up a complete and effective statistics gathering system. This means that police statistics are given far more weight than they should have. It also means that there has been no recording nationally of the 3 categories of injury - fatal, serious and minor.

There is also no real calibration of accidents.

It is estimated that road crashes cost about 8% of GDP - this is in medical costs, damage to property, work lost, family bread earners lost and the cost of debilitating injuries.

Thailand shrugs its shoulders & mutters “ oh well “ …..I have my rice bowl full & house paid, no problem

[Ralf001]

On 3/21/2022 at 7:21 AM, actonion said:

With many Thai's struggling  with finances, and vehicle road accidents ongoing, i wonder  who pays the hospital bills  for these people.?

Compulsory Third Party insurance covers everyone involved except the at fault driver.

[Thunglom]

On 3/21/2022 at 12:21 AM, actonion said:

With many Thai's struggling  with finances, and vehicle road accidents ongoing, i wonder  who pays the hospital bills  for these people.?

 

It  has been suggested by this government that  rising costs in hospitals are because of foreigners  running away from their hospital bills, not any hospital i have ever attended,  where i have had to pay in advance for any overnight stays

All motorcycles in their road tax/insurance have cover for immediate emergency work.

further care for Thais is covered by the national healthcare system. however how good that is, is a matter for debate.

Foreigners need some kind of insurance - whether it be from their employee, they may qualify for national cover or they will need Aan insurance company that covers them for this sort of healthcare.

Many tourists end up in hospital only to find their insurance regards motorcycling as "extreme" activities and they aren't covered.

Even they are they take up hospital beds and the hospitals charge as much as they can, the result is te insurance costs for everyone else go up to cover this.

This results in general spraining of costs with hospitals chasing after fully insured patents- Uninsured are usually moved on te government or charitable hospitals where they receive the minimum treatment a a cost to the government.

[actonion]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:43 PM, Ralf001 said:

Compulsory Third Party insurance covers everyone involved except the at fault driver.

yes i know that, but who pays for the at fault  driver   (who lives), and so many that do have that insurance or road tax

[actonion]

11 hours ago, Thunglom said:

All motorcycles in their road tax/insurance have cover for immediate emergency work.

further care for Thais is covered by the national healthcare system. however how good that is, is a matter for debate.

Foreigners need some kind of insurance - whether it be from their employee, they may qualify for national cover or they will need Aan insurance company that covers them for this sort of healthcare.

Many tourists end up in hospital only to find their insurance regards motorcycling as "extreme" activities and they aren't covered.

Even they are they take up hospital beds and the hospitals charge as much as they can, the result is te insurance costs for everyone else go up to cover this.

This results in general spraining of costs with hospitals chasing after fully insured patents- Uninsured are usually moved on te government or charitable hospitals where they receive the minimum treatment a a cost to the government.

Obviously the healthcare system must be under strain as  so many  of these   vehicles on the road  have no compulsory , or voluntary insurance, or even road tax..

[Ralf001]

2 minutes ago, actonion said:

yes i know that, but who pays for the at fault  driver   (who lives), and so many that do have that insurance or road tax

His voluntary insurance company, if he does not have well som nom nah.

[Thunglom]

1 hour ago, actonion said:

Obviously the healthcare system must be under strain as  so many  of these   vehicles on the road  have no compulsory , or voluntary insurance, or even road tax..

What cover do you have?

 

As said the cost to the nation is about 8% of GDP.

however - "so many  of these   vehicles on the road  have no compulsory , or voluntary insurance, or even road tax.."

Sadly, the figures to support this are not readily available,  you just have to make an educated guess.

 

THe cost of taxing and insuring a motorcycle is very low and it is one of the police's favourite checks.

When you pay tax on your car or motorcycle you are also paying the basic compulsory  "road traffic act" insurance as well - you can't do one without the other. This is similar to the system in Oz. This allows people to take their vehicle on the road legally; cover you get is however minimum. So I'd suggest that the main problem is people who are driving LEGALLY on the roads who have not bought any EXTRA insurance. That probably represents a very large proportion of drivers/riders and a serious problem.

Whereas I'd believe there are more breaking this law in Thailand than most EU countries, with 22 million motorbikes, we simply can't guess at the actual numbers or percentages. ... or how significant effect they might have on the national healthcare system.

 

This is an example of how Thailand fails to gather comprehensive road safety statistics. Without comprehensive and accurate statistics, it is very difficult to bring about any significant change in road safety in the Kingdom.

[sandyf]

On 3/19/2022 at 9:42 AM, new2here said:

My opinion is that these kinds of events are somehow seen in this society as just “happening” as if to imply that there’s no control over them - vis a vis, like an act of God; versus something that’s largely controllable 

… and therefore like acts of god, there’s little true outrage - thus no real political nor social movement to address the issue… it is what it is if you will… because it’s not a problem.. it’s just something that happened.

 

i think until society collectively views these cases as largely avoidable and controllable, it won’t change … 

 

 

It will change,  but not overnight, and foreigners whinging will not speed things up. I fail to understand why people come to Thailand and then start complaining about what they find.

Most of the west was brought up along side the motor vehicle so a completely different culture evolved. By the time motor vehicles became available in any great numbers to the Thai population it had already become a lethal weapon, bit like giving a gun to a child.

Although things were much more evolved in the west it didn't stop similar situations in some of the European islands. I was in the RAF during the 70's and drove military vehicles around Sardinia, Malta & Cyprus, not a lot different to Thailand as far as driving skills went.

What is hugely different in Thailand is the number of motorbikes, a major source of the problem. The government can over time improve road infrastructure and legislate for better vehicle skills but no government can or will ever change people's perception. That is a multi generational challenge.

[sandyf]

On 3/19/2022 at 7:45 PM, sirineou said:

If such a large percentage of the deaths are scooter related then is it possible that Thais are not worst drivers than , for example, Vietnam , but rather that there are so many more scooters here than there are in . again for example, in Vietnam. Thailand has a population of 70 million and has according to google 100 million scooters, and Vietnam has 98 million. but only has 2 million scooters  . 

Put 50x more scooters on the road and it is not unreasonable to conclude that you might have 50X the scooter accidents

Am I making any sense? 

You must have a different google, what mine says is 20 million in Thailand and 50 Million in Vietnam.

When I first went to Vietnam in 2005 I hardly saw a car or pickup, a few tractors and lorries were about the only 4 wheelers on the road in the midst of a swarm of motorbikes. My wife,  girlfriend at the time was working in HCMC. I would never have crossed a road if she hadn't been there, quite intimidating to see a 10 metre wide swarm coming straight towards you, she would just walk straight out and the swarm would part like the Red Sea.

I went back to HCMC a couple of years ago and the ratio of 4 wheelers to motorbikes has certainly changed but so had the infrastructure and found road travel more organised and calmer than in the past.

[Thunglom]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

It will change,  but not overnight, and foreigners whinging will not speed things up. I fail to understand why people come to Thailand and then start complaining about what they find.

Most of the west was brought up along side the motor vehicle so a completely different culture evolved. By the time motor vehicles became available in any great numbers to the Thai population it had already become a lethal weapon, bit like giving a gun to a child.

Although things were much more evolved in the west it didn't stop similar situations in some of the European islands. I was in the RAF during the 70's and drove military vehicles around Sardinia, Malta & Cyprus, not a lot different to Thailand as far as driving skills went.

What is hugely different in Thailand is the number of motorbikes, a major source of the problem. The government can over time improve road infrastructure and legislate for better vehicle skills but no government can or will ever change people's perception. That is a multi generational challenge.

Some basic premises I’d question

 

I agree it will change .. and it will take time and investment.

 

Foreigners complaining/criticising is fine, but most foreigners who complain/criticise about road safety don’t have a clue and are complaining about “what they find” – and that is personal experience and anecdotal – which is basically wrong.

 

What we are looking at is PERCEPTION versus reality. Not just of today but the history too.

 

You note there are differences between the “west” and Thailand’s history with the motor vehicle – this is correct but then you make some conclusions I’d take issue with.

 

Firstly I can’t agree with the “giving a child a gun” – theory – it is condescending and racist – Thais are not stupid or immature. ..I think sweeping generalisations have to be treated very cautiously or taken with a pinch of salt.

You than go on to use personal anecdote about the 1970s and cite islands – this is relying on your personal experience without looking at the big picture.

 

If you look at the statistics from that era, you will see that almost ALL countries in the West from America to Europe to Australia had similarly dire death rates and even worse rates for crashes and injuries. Frances figures were almost identical to Thailand's now.

In fact countries like France Italy and Greece even Germany had huge numbers of 2 and 3 wheeled vehicles. In fact they still have the highest ownership in Europe….

The truth is that governments using what is now that “safe system” HAVE changed people’s perception and attitudes to road safety. Remember campaigns against Set belts, airbags, helmets and the national speed limits.

The thing bout the safe system and its origins is that it has taken 40 years or so to work – it is also very subtle and westerners are not aware that their perceptions have been changed over the years gradually and subtly

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Thunglom

[Ralf001]

1 hour ago, Thunglom said:

What cover do you have?

 

As said the cost to the nation is about 8% of GDP.

however - "so many  of these   vehicles on the road  have no compulsory , or voluntary insurance, or even road tax.."

Sadly, the figures to support this are not readily available,  you just have to make an educated guess.

 

THe cost of taxing and insuring a motorcycle is very low and it is one of the police's favourite checks.

When you pay tax on your car or motorcycle you are also paying the basic compulsory  "road traffic act" insurance as well - you can't do one without the other. This is similar to the system in Oz. This allows people to take their vehicle on the road legally; cover you get is however minimum. So I'd suggest that the main problem is people who are driving LEGALLY on the roads who have not bought any EXTRA insurance. That probably represents a very large proportion of drivers/riders and a serious problem.

Whereas I'd believe there are more breaking this law in Thailand than most EU countries, with 22 million motorbikes, we simply can't guess at the actual numbers or percentages. ... or how significant effect they might have on the national healthcare system.

 

This is an example of how Thailand fails to gather comprehensive road safety statistics. Without comprehensive and accurate statistics, it is very difficult to bring about any significant change in road safety in the Kingdom.

Lots of waffle with no facts.

 

[Thunglom]

10 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

Lots of waffle with no facts.

 

I think that says more bout you than anything else.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, Thunglom said:

Firstly I can’t agree with the “giving a child a gun” – theory – it is condescending and racist – Thais are not stupid or immature. ..I think sweeping generalisations have to be treated very cautiously or taken with a pinch of salt.

You than go on to use personal anecdote about the 1970s and cite islands – this is relying on your personal experience without looking at the big picture.

You are wrong, the comment was neither condescending or racist, just a fact of life, they were unprepared. I never at any point implied they were stupid or immature, just a lack of education in respect of motor vehicles.  You would have to show me someone that was educated at birth.

My point about the 70's was in respect of driving skills, something that many on this forum want to focus on. It had nothing to do with deaths or a bigger picture so please do not drag me into your theories.

[Thunglom]

17 minutes ago, sandyf said:

You are wrong, the comment was neither condescending or racist, just a fact of life, they were unprepared. I never at any point implied they were stupid or immature, just a lack of education in respect of motor vehicles.  You would have to show me someone that was educated at birth.

My point about the 70's was in respect of driving skills, something that many on this forum want to focus on. It had nothing to do with deaths or a bigger picture so please do not drag me into your theories.

It's there in black and white.

not MY theories they are the theories of logic and science.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Thunglom

[MSMU1993]

Darwin at work...unfortunately...