Thaksin Mindset Plagues Country

[Rtwo]

EDITORIAL The Nation, Sat, June 16, 2007

Thaksin mindset plagues country

The public's acceptance of official corruption reflects the negative culture born under the previous government

Despite his departure from the Kingdom several months ago, former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has left behind a political legacy that still haunts the public. Thaksin's legacy is alarming and its effects were shown clearly in a recent opinion survey that showed about 70 per cent of Bangkok residents thought a corrupt government was acceptable as long as it could bring about public well-being.

This kind of attitude is something new in Thai society. In the past, people everywhere had an unshakeable faith in honesty and ethical values and they hated corrupt politicians most of all. Five years of Thaksin Shinawatra as prime minister seems to have had a heavy impact on the moral values of people. The manner in which he governed the Kingdom, as a chief executive officer lording over his company, ignored any form of correctness and ethical values and seems to have sowed a new worrisome mentality, which has spread widely.

New to Thai society? Unshakeable faith in honesty and ethical values??? They can't be writing about the same country that I've been visting for the past 30 years, can they? I remember a time not so long ago when 'The Nation' was a responsible and reasonably accurate rag that reported with some balance. I know that they got hammered under Mr T but articles like this are just counterproductive from everyones point of view

[Luckydog]

It seems that Thaksin bought the love of the poor by allowing them to get cheap loans and healthcare etc. They don't give a 'monkeys' about his failure to pay taxes, 'cos they avoid paying them TOO!

[lazeeboy]

It seems that Thaksin bought the love of the poor by allowing them to get cheap loans and healthcare etc. They don't give a 'monkeys' about his failure to pay taxes, 'cos they avoid paying them TOO!

i remember taksin campaining and giving out bags or rice for there vote,these same people now slate him ,give them a chicken and these same people will vote for him again ,greed on both sides

[OlRedEyes]

New to Thai society? Unshakeable faith in honesty and ethical values???

Its all relative innit.

[kmart]

I think the people that scribble those editorials and holier-than-thou comments in the Bangkok dailies don't live in the same world as the rest of us. Typical, cosy middle-class shock horror that police or politicians might be corrupt, blah, blah. Bangkok-centric and totally ignorant of the rest of this country and its population, that would mostly wai Satan himself if he climbed out of a tinted-window Mercedes with a safari suit on.

[jumnien]

This is probably the most ignorant piece of journalism I've ever seen. You wonder how they could know so little about Thai politics or politics anywhere to imagine that Thaksin invented corruption. Monkeys typing would be far more relevant and accurate!

[canuckamuck]

When I read this this morning I remember thinking, how am I going to endure any more of these self deluded news articles and editorials? Sycophantic and completely false. I have run out of ideas as to where to get Thai news. It is no mystery why democracy can’t function here.

[Mid]

The public's acceptance of official corruption reflects the negative culture born under the previous government

hahahaha , it's wasn't me mom ,

been a problem for a lot longer than one administration ...................................

[kmart]

When I read this this morning I remember thinking, how am I going to endure any more of these self deluded news articles and editorials? Sycophantic and completely false. I have run out of ideas as to where to get Thai news. It is no mystery why democracy can’t function here.

The Bangkok-based Thai media seems to hate Thaksin Probably a reaction to his heavy-handed dealings with them during his reign as PM; pulling advertising from critical publications; holding up idiot-boards during interviews; etc... Obviously still has an axe to grind.

I don't know if Thaksin knocked the will out of a once-vibrant and free press, but since the coup, the media here has been a sycophantic disgrace to journalism; capitulating to every whim of an illigitimate junta, and asleep at the wheel whilst increasingly authoritarian measures take hold. I doubt that Thailand will ever end up like Burma, but that will not be due to the vigilance of its media.

[soundman]

I think the people that scribble those editorials and holier-than-thou comments in the Bangkok dailies don't live in the same world as the rest of us. Typical, cosy middle-class shock horror that police or politicians might be corrupt, blah, blah. Bangkok-centric and totally ignorant of the rest of this country and its population, that would mostly wai Satan himself if he climbed out of a tinted-window Mercedes with a safari suit on.

This is so true. Up country corruption is just a part of daily life on many different levels. Something you accept & just add to the cost of everyday stuff. My wife's construction business has provided me with a lot of insight into how the process works. Corruption in the building industry from the word go until the very end.

A "therotical" rundown....

A job is released with a budget of X Baht.

All the building companies collude to get it at maximum price, negotiating & paying each other off in the process, rather than bidding against each other & forcing the price down.

The officials know what's going on, but rather than sort it out, they ask for a percentage off the top.

The building companies want to make more profit - so they cut corners, don't follow spec., use dodgy materials etc.

This leads to the govt. supplied engineer & QC officers wanting a piece of the pie.

Job's finished, QC signed off & now its time to collect the money. Not so easy, if you want it quickly, the accounting department needs motivation to write up a cheque. Sure you can wait, but for how many months????

"Theoretical" corruption costs of different projects for the building companies. (of total project value)

Dirt Road - 17.5%

Dam - 15%

Bituman Road - 15%

Cap Seal - 12.5%

Bridge - 12.5%

Concrete Road - 10%

Government Buildings - 7.5% - 12.5%

Not all provinces are the same. Generally higher in previous TRT provinces.

And who pays for all this???? The VAT tax..... Consumption by the poor of Thailand.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[kmart]

^^Pretty good breakdown and assessment. Just put those ratios in an Excel program and estimate how much money Thailand fritters away on any top politicos' pet "mega-project", and it is pretty staggering.

However, this is the same all over the world these days, certainly on most oil & ga$ projects I've ever worked on.

[soundman]

^^Pretty good breakdown and assessment. Just put those ratios in an Excel program and estimate how much money Thailand fritters away on any top politicos' pet "mega-project", and it is pretty staggering.

However, this is the same all over the world these days, certainly on most oil & ga$ projects I've ever worked on.

The megaprojects were going to be Taksin's pot of gold at the end of the rainbow....

It's amasing though just how blind the average Jo is when it comes to how consumption type taxes actually affect them...

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Mid]

It's amasing though just how blind the average Jo is when it comes to how consumption type taxes actually affect them...

workmen and their tools ..............

eg , Singapore .

[vermin on arrival]

After Thaksin muzzled the Bangkok Post by having the editor fired, I really enjoyed reading The Nation as a source of news and admired it for it's ability to stand up to him despite what I assumed was enormous pressure. Now, when I read an article like this, I'm flabbergasted. Despite all of his exceses, to blame Thaksin for the culture of corruption in Thailand is rubbish. Is there any local paper that we can read to get balanced reporting of the news anymore?

[lannarebirth]

After Thaksin muzzled the Bangkok Post by having the editor fired, I really enjoyed reading The Nation as a source of news and admired it for it's ability to stand up to him despite what I assumed was enormous pressure. Now, when I read an article like this, I'm flabbergasted. Despite all of his exceses, to blame Thaksin for the culture of corruption in Thailand is rubbish. Is there any local paper that we can read to get balanced reporting of the news anymore?

I think what the article is trying to say is, while corruption existed before, the vast majority of the populace did not condone it, but rather, was held hostage by it. I think what's changed under Thaksin, is he seemed to indicate, that only by embracing the reality of corruption, could one ever likely succeeed. In other words, it seemed his advice to the masses was "don't be a sap, emnrace the corruption culture and get your piece of the pie". While it's true that laws are not generally enforced against the corrupt. No one ever before tried to change the mores of the nation to accept the practice, which he did.

Edited June 16, 2007 by lannarebirth

[Ulysses G.]

I think what the article is trying to say is, while corruption existed before, the vast majority of the populace did not condone it, but rather, was held hostage by it. I think what's changed under Thaksin, is he seemed to indicate, that only by embracing the reality of corruption, could one ever likely succeeed. In other words, it seemed his advice to the masses was "don't be a sap, emnrace the corruption culture and get your piece of the pie". While it's true that laws are not generally enforced against the corrupt. No one ever before tried to change the mores of the nation to accept the practice, which he did.

Thaksin was no worse than those that came before him.

In fact, he was one of the few that balanced bad with good.

[observer21]

After Thaksin muzzled the Bangkok Post by having the editor fired, I really enjoyed reading The Nation as a source of news and admired it for it's ability to stand up to him despite what I assumed was enormous pressure. Now, when I read an article like this, I'm flabbergasted. Despite all of his exceses, to blame Thaksin for the culture of corruption in Thailand is rubbish. Is there any local paper that we can read to get balanced reporting of the news anymore?

I think what the article is trying to say is, while corruption existed before, the vast majority of the populace did not condone it, but rather, was held hostage by it. I think what's changed under Thaksin, is he seemed to indicate, that only by embracing the reality of corruption, could one ever likely succeeed. In other words, it seemed his advice to the masses was "don't be a sap, emnrace the corruption culture and get your piece of the pie". While it's true that laws are not generally enforced against the corrupt. No one ever before tried to change the mores of the nation to accept the practice, which he did.

I think you are absoulutley right.  I think many of the previous posts to this thread

have gone to extremes in their apparaisal of the article.  Of course everone knows that Thaksin didnt invent corruption - but he did promote it.  He was once quoted in the national press as saying 'it is the duty of every thai to take as much money as

possible from ferangs'.  Even the name of his ex party Thai Love Thai has connatations

of being unfair to non thais.

I have spoken to many thais whom seem to hold the attidude that it doent really

matter how you get rich because rich = respect.

PS  why does England give visas to the likes of Thaksin

Edited June 16, 2007 by observer21

[Mid]

rich = respect

only to the uneducated .

[KireB]

I think what the article is trying to say is, while corruption existed before, the vast majority of the populace did not condone it, but rather, was held hostage by it. I think what's changed under Thaksin, is he seemed to indicate, that only by embracing the reality of corruption, could one ever likely succeeed. In other words, it seemed his advice to the masses was "don't be a sap, emnrace the corruption culture and get your piece of the pie". While it's true that laws are not generally enforced against the corrupt. No one ever before tried to change the mores of the nation to accept the practice, which he did.

Thaksin was no worse than those that came before him.

In fact, he was one of the few that balanced bad with good.

What an utter nonsense!

It still surprises me every single day that some people defend him.

Where have you been the last 5 years? Do you ever read newspapers?

It's such a cheap excuse to compare Thaksin with previous governments. Kind of lesser evil, not?

Or a self fulfilling prophecy that Thai governments will always steal and be corrupt!

This country should move on and never accept these practises.

[Ulysses G.]

PS  why does England give visas to the likes of Thaksin

A better question would be, Why do they give visas to Muslim clerics who preach hate?

[observer21]

PS  why does England give visas to the likes of Thaksin

A better question would be, Why do they give visas to Muslim clerics who preach hate?

That would be another question but not a better one - and dont twist your ignorant face

anyway name a Muslim cleric, and what about government officials who promote divide

[KireB]

PS why does England give visas to the likes of Thaksin

A better question would be, Why do they give visas to Muslim clerics who preach hate?

Because when these clerics apply for visas their passports don't mention ' preacher of hate" or 'good muslim'?

Edited June 16, 2007 by KireB

[observer21]

rich = respect

only to the uneducated .

exactly my point

Edited June 16, 2007 by observer21

[geronimo]

EDITORIAL The Nation, Sat, June 16, 2007

Thaksin mindset plagues country

The public's acceptance of official corruption reflects the negative culture born under the previous government

Despite his departure from the Kingdom several months ago, former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has left behind a political legacy that still haunts the public. Thaksin's legacy is alarming and its effects were shown clearly in a recent opinion survey that showed about 70 per cent of Bangkok residents thought a corrupt government was acceptable as long as it could bring about public well-being.

This kind of attitude is something new in Thai society. In the past, people everywhere had an unshakeable faith in honesty and ethical values and they hated corrupt politicians most of all. Five years of Thaksin Shinawatra as prime minister seems to have had a heavy impact on the moral values of people. The manner in which he governed the Kingdom, as a chief executive officer lording over his company, ignored any form of correctness and ethical values and seems to have sowed a new worrisome mentality, which has spread widely.

New to Thai society? Unshakeable faith in honesty and ethical values??? They can't be writing about the same country that I've been visting for the past 30 years, can they? I remember a time not so long ago when 'The Nation' was a responsible and reasonably accurate rag that reported with some balance. I know that they got hammered under Mr T but articles like this are just counterproductive from everyones point of view

As far as I'm concerned, Thakisin did a whole lot more than any previous PM, and if the truth be known he probably took a lot less too!!! A question of the lesser evil I think.

[Ulysses G.]

PS  why does England give visas to the likes of Thaksin

A better question would be, Why do they give visas to Muslim clerics who preach hate?

That would be another question but not a better one - and dont twist your ignorant face

anyway name a Muslim cleric, and what about government officials who promote divide

You are calling me ignorant?

At least I have some idea how to use correct grammar, punctuation and capital letters.

[samran]

A "therotical" rundown....

A job is released with a budget of X Baht.

All the building companies collude to get it at maximum price, negotiating & paying each other off in the process, rather than bidding against each other & forcing the price down.

The officials know what's going on, but rather than sort it out, they ask for a percentage off the top.

The building companies want to make more profit - so they cut corners, don't follow spec., use dodgy materials etc.

This leads to the govt. supplied engineer & QC officers wanting a piece of the pie.

Job's finished, QC signed off & now its time to collect the money. Not so easy, if you want it quickly, the accounting department needs motivation to write up a cheque. Sure you can wait, but for how many months????

"Theoretical" corruption costs of different projects for the building companies. (of total project value)

Dirt Road - 17.5%

Dam - 15%

Bituman Road - 15%

Cap Seal - 12.5%

Bridge - 12.5%

Concrete Road - 10%

Government Buildings - 7.5% - 12.5%

Not all provinces are the same. Generally higher in previous TRT provinces.

And who pays for all this???? The VAT tax..... Consumption by the poor of Thailand.

Cheers,

Soundman.

Great post. I think that was the trouble.

What happened under Dear Leader was not, at least, a maintence of the status quo, but in fact, corruption "inflation". I think people would have tolerated him more as just another poltician if he wasn't so keen on sticking his nose so needlessly into the trough.

Some friends of my parents basically got out of the roads contracting game saying everything had gone up 20% - sometimes more - during Thaksins time. They were used to paying bribes, but then things just got out of hand. No doubt he was turning a blind eye to bolster his own support at all levels of the civil service and political class.

I think the great danger was that on the corruption front, Thaksin was taking Thailand in reverse. Whateverelse anyone says about corruption in Thailand, certain aspects have improved to the point where it is almost possible for normal Thais in most places to expect that up to a certain level, they shouldn't have to or need to 'pay' for a public servant to do their job quiclky. You name it, anywhere from getting your ID card renewed, getting a passport the things that - at least - my mothers generation had to put up with. Indeed, other areas, such as the Revenue Department and the BOT, were showing signs of not only greater competence, but greater independence. Things that are essential for a well functioning (and properly funded) civil society!

I personally feared that sooner or later, things would revert to how they used to be.

[cclub75]

This is probably the most ignorant piece of journalism I've ever seen.

Not ignorance.

Just the usual propaganda...

However, I must admit that the author has breached the speed of light with this sentence : "In the past, people everywhere had an unshakeable faith in honesty and ethical values and they hated corrupt politicians most of all. "

[cclub75]

What happened under Dear Leader was not, at least, a maintence of the status quo, but in fact, corruption "inflation".

I would rather say... "industrialization" !

[observer21]

PS  why does England give visas to the likes of Thaksin

A better question would be, Why do they give visas to Muslim clerics who preach hate?

That would be another question but not a better one - and dont twist your ignorant face

anyway name a Muslim cleric, and what about government officials who promote divide

You are calling me ignorant?

At least I have some idea how to use correct grammar, punctuation and capital letters.

I am not writing formal letters, and therefor allow myself grammatical errors and

typos.  Being good at English grammar doesnt make you any less ignorant re. the

bigger picture.  To promote the fact, on an international forum shows your ignorance

- so what are you

[soundman]

I think people would have tolerated him more as just another poltician if he wasn't so keen on sticking his nose so needlessly into the trough.

I think they have a name for it when judging a politician on his performance.

"Anyone who becomes unusually wealthy during their period in office..."

Cheers,

Soundman.