Questions about taxation + TIN

[lisaflisa]

I got a TIN a month ago and have a few questions. I don't work in Thailand but have a steady income from abroad every month. Usually I send that money to one of my Thai bank accounts and use them here for general living expenses.

 

1. Do I have to file personal income tax in Thailand now when I have a TIN?

 

2. What happens if I don't file any taxes on March 31 next year? Fined? Jail?

 

3. I have read somewhere that the banks will tax my savings account. Is that so and by how much do they tax the savings accounts?

 

Thanks all in advance for any insight you might have and are willing to share with me.

[Robin]

I wa always told that income earned outside Thailand was not taxed in Thailand.  All my income, even if paid into my Thai bank, was not taxed.

Thai bank will deduct tax on the interest from your savings account, and fro any Thai's savings account.

IMO, not worth keeping too much money in Thailand, except for that required by Immigration.

if you have a decent nest-egg, think about asset management in some where like Singapore, where it will no be taxed unless you live there.

Many Thai assets, like property, vehicles, are very illiquid and i can be difficult to get your money out again.

[Skeptic7]

Withholding tax on foreigners Thai savings account is 15% of the interest paid. With TIN believe you can file for reimbursement if interest under B20,000. I don't have a TIN and just don't bother with it. Not worth my time or effort. This "withholding" scam just started a few years back and is just another greedy money grab by LOG(reed). 

[topt]

3 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

This "withholding" scam just started a few years back and is just another greedy money grab by LOG(reed). 

If by a few years you mean at least 7 or 8 ok.

It may also have always been the case but I can't be bothered to check my old books.

[topt]

9 hours ago, Robin said:

I wa always told that income earned outside Thailand was not taxed in Thailand.  All my income, even if paid into my Thai bank, was not taxed.

In theory it is not taxable (currently) if brought into Thailand the calendar year after it was earned. So if you are paid income in December you could transfer in January without any tax obligations.

 

In practice Thai revenue have not, up to now, tried to tax money brought in the same year as in most cases they currently have no way to assess what is current income and what is savings from abroad - unless someone decides to fill in a tax form and tell them.......

[topt]

12 hours ago, lisaflisa said:

1. Do I have to file personal income tax in Thailand now when I have a TIN?

No.

 

12 hours ago, lisaflisa said:

2. What happens if I don't file any taxes on March 31 next year? Fined? Jail?

When you next go to file, if you ever did, small fine of 100 or 200 baht only. When I claim for repayment of the tax withheld from my savings interest I use a one page form not the full tax return.

 

3 - already answered above. They only tax any interest you receive.

[ballpoint]

1 hour ago, topt said:

In theory it is not taxable (currently) if brought into Thailand the calendar year after it was earned. So if you are paid income in December you could transfer in January without any tax obligations.

The calendar year proviso is stated by many tax accountants and lawyers here, and does seem to be followed by the Revenue Department, however, there is nothing about this on their website, or any other official documentation I've found. 

 

"Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand."

Personal Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

As they do accept that it is the case in my district, I'm not complaining, but, unless someone can actually quote a declaration that the "same calendar year" proviso is official, I wouldn't be surprised if they did try and tax all overseas income remitted to Thailand at some point, regardless of what year it was earned.  In fact, with the introduction of CRS, Thailand could well make tax residents declare and pay tax on all overseas income (that wasn't already taxed by a country having a treaty with Thailand), whether it was remitted or not - which is what my own country would do to me if I was still a tax resident there.  I'm not losing any sleep over this, but have considered some options should it eventuate.

 

1 hour ago, topt said:

In practice Thai revenue have not, up to now, tried to tax money brought in the same year as in most cases they currently have no way to assess what is current income and what is savings from abroad - unless someone decides to fill in a tax form and tell them.......

The Revenue Department can, and do, flag passports of those who they suspect owe them taxes, making it impossible to even do a 90 day report, let alone a visa extension, until it is settled.  I know this from personal experience, and from others who have been in the same boat.  (In my case it was due to my retiring from a job here and converting to a retirement extension.  All necessary taxes were paid, however the Bangkok branch of the Revenue Department wanted to know why I was still in Thailand, but hadn't filed a tax return with them.  The answer was I am now dealing with the office in my home district, and not the Bangkok one, and they obviously don't communicate very well.  The immigration officer in Buriram was very helpful with this, calling the Revenue Department and arguing my case.  He told me that this has happened on a number of occasions, and not just to those who have ever worked in Thailand, with some of them resulting in the passport holder having to file a return and pay tax on money brought into the country before being able to apply for an extension).

 

When I was working here, my company used a multinational accounting firm to deal with the taxes of its expat employees.  Before I retired, I asked for some advice from them on how best to handle continuing to live here by bringing in money earned from overseas tax-free investments.  Their reply was basically if the Revenue Department decide to audit you, which they very well could, they will want to see your bank statement(s) here and you must account for all money deposited into your account, whether from Thailand or abroad.  If you remitted the money from an overseas bank, they want to see statements from that bank showing not only that the account had sufficient funds at the start of the year, but also what was deposited into that account prior to you remitting the money - if you remitted money every month then they'd want to see statements for every month. You must also account for any deposits made over that period, and prove that tax had been paid on them in a country having a tax treaty with Thailand.  I handle this by remitting my year's money supply, from an account in Singapore, over the first half of the year and printing off statements for those months clearly showing nothing has been deposited in the bank over that period.  I highlight and number each transfer and do the same on my local statements.  I then top up that account near the end of the year with money from my investments.  This worked for me when I was flagged by the Revenue Department, and continues to work each year at my local Revenue office.  For anyone thinking this is unwieldy and unneccessary, I say that you may not have needed to do this in the past, but from my own experience, and the words of the immigration officer and tax accountant, it may only be a matter of time before you are called to do it.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by ballpoint

[topt]

48 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

but from my own experience, and the words of the immigration officer and tax accountant, it may only be a matter of time before you are called to do it.

Thanks for the interesting and detailed post.

 

I don't disagree with the last sentence I quoted above which is why in my reply you quoted I was at pains to use the word "currently". 

 

Just a comment on CRS which you mentioned. I think fortunately so far although they signed up to implement it, they still haven't got round to passing the legislation they need to put in place before they do so. One can only hope this carries on for a while yet........

[new2here]

another issue is bilateral tax treaties.. thailand has a whole host of them, and as such if you’re a national of one of these countries, then special taxation rules MAY also apply to you with respect to your Thai income situation as well as any income generated externally. 

 

As for the withholding… yes, a non-citizen is subject to it in most cases… all you need to do is ask the bank for a tax statement at the branch (my experience with BBL is that any BBL branch can issue them regardless of the accounts domicile branch so long as you have proper ID and the physical bank book) after January, which shows the total interest paid and the withholding on the account and signed by the bank officer. 

 

then it’s only a matter of adding that into your PD90/91 on the correct line… easy peasy in my opinion.

 

Do know that most, if not all, LABOUR offices will require you to show proof of the prior years tax filing/payment compliance before they’ll renew a WP for a subsequent period.   This if true even IF your Thai subjected income/expenses/deductions left you in a “no tax due” or even a “refund due” situation… they’ll still want to see proof that you filed (and paid if required) as per law. 

 

 

[khunPer]

20 hours ago, lisaflisa said:

1. Do I have to file personal income tax in Thailand now when I have a TIN?

 

2. What happens if I don't file any taxes on March 31 next year? Fined? Jail?

 

3. I have read somewhere that the banks will tax my savings account. Is that so and by how much do they tax the savings accounts?

1. You are in principle fully income taxable when you reside in Thailand for 180 days and more within a tax-year, i.e. calendar year. All personal income is taxable; including foreign, but only as long as the foreign income is transferred into Thailand during the same calendar year as it's earned. Some people don't transfer their foreign income before next calendar year, then it's converted to savings, and savings are tax free to transfer into Thailand.

 

2. You'll have to pay a fine plus interest. If you have no income, you can easily file a "0 income tax return".

 

3. Interest from bank accounts will be withheld taxed by the banks by 15 percent. If you accept that tax, you don't need to do any further. You can however choose to declare it in the tax return form, if your total taxable income will be taxed at a lower percentage, and thereby declare already paid tax to be "returned" or reduced.

 

A link to a good Thai income tax-calculator is HERE...????

[Dogmatix]

21 hours ago, ballpoint said:

The calendar year proviso is stated by many tax accountants and lawyers here, and does seem to be followed by the Revenue Department, however, there is nothing about this on their website, or any other official documentation I've found. 

 

"Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand."

Personal Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

As they do accept that it is the case in my district, I'm not complaining, but, unless someone can actually quote a declaration that the "same calendar year" proviso is official, I wouldn't be surprised if they did try and tax all overseas income remitted to Thailand at some point, regardless of what year it was earned.  In fact, with the introduction of CRS, Thailand could well make tax residents declare and pay tax on all overseas income (that wasn't already taxed by a country having a treaty with Thailand), whether it was remitted or not - which is what my own country would do to me if I was still a tax resident there.  I'm not losing any sleep over this, but have considered some options should it eventuate.

 

The Revenue Department can, and do, flag passports of those who they suspect owe them taxes, making it impossible to even do a 90 day report, let alone a visa extension, until it is settled.  I know this from personal experience, and from others who have been in the same boat.  (In my case it was due to my retiring from a job here and converting to a retirement extension.  All necessary taxes were paid, however the Bangkok branch of the Revenue Department wanted to know why I was still in Thailand, but hadn't filed a tax return with them.  The answer was I am now dealing with the office in my home district, and not the Bangkok one, and they obviously don't communicate very well.  The immigration officer in Buriram was very helpful with this, calling the Revenue Department and arguing my case.  He told me that this has happened on a number of occasions, and not just to those who have ever worked in Thailand, with some of them resulting in the passport holder having to file a return and pay tax on money brought into the country before being able to apply for an extension).

 

When I was working here, my company used a multinational accounting firm to deal with the taxes of its expat employees.  Before I retired, I asked for some advice from them on how best to handle continuing to live here by bringing in money earned from overseas tax-free investments.  Their reply was basically if the Revenue Department decide to audit you, which they very well could, they will want to see your bank statement(s) here and you must account for all money deposited into your account, whether from Thailand or abroad.  If you remitted the money from an overseas bank, they want to see statements from that bank showing not only that the account had sufficient funds at the start of the year, but also what was deposited into that account prior to you remitting the money - if you remitted money every month then they'd want to see statements for every month. You must also account for any deposits made over that period, and prove that tax had been paid on them in a country having a tax treaty with Thailand.  I handle this by remitting my year's money supply, from an account in Singapore, over the first half of the year and printing off statements for those months clearly showing nothing has been deposited in the bank over that period.  I highlight and number each transfer and do the same on my local statements.  I then top up that account near the end of the year with money from my investments.  This worked for me when I was flagged by the Revenue Department, and continues to work each year at my local Revenue office.  For anyone thinking this is unwieldy and unneccessary, I say that you may not have needed to do this in the past, but from my own experience, and the words of the immigration officer and tax accountant, it may only be a matter of time before you are called to do it.

 

 

It’s true that what might have worked in the past might not work in the future. The RD is under huge pressure to increase revenue and has all the power to do as you suggest already in the Revenue Code.

 

A tax audit is not pleasant. I was subjected to a tax audit for my virtually inactive Thai company last year. Two whole afternoons answering questions going back to 2016 in the local tax office. They wanted THB 430k but most of their allegations were unfounded. Ended up paying 36k due to a couple of slip ups by my accountant.

 

I have rental income in the UK and my accountant there makes me take out insurance to cover the cost of tax audits there, since it can be onerous. In Thailand the missus and I were able to handle the audit ourselves but it was stressful.

[Dogmatix]

Filing for personal tax in Thailand for those not working is worthwhile, if you have significant dividend income from Thai stocks, as you can reclaim some of the 10% withholding tax. I have reclaimed a fair bit over the last few years. I file PNG 90 on line which takes me 2-3 hours but needs a knowledge of Thai. The system now allows you to input all the dividends by company and calculates the rebate.  Despite being retired I can claim a substantial tax deduction by investing in Thai Retirement Mutual Funds (RMF) which is what makes it really worthwhile for me. There are also deductions available for being over 65, having elderly parents or spouse’s parents, having Thai children, life and medical insurance & etc.
 

I have never bothered to reclaim the withholding tax on interest as interest rates have been so low. But with inflation over 7% that may change.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Dogmatix

[Everyman]

On 6/11/2022 at 11:28 AM, ballpoint said:

The calendar year proviso is stated by many tax accountants and lawyers here, and does seem to be followed by the Revenue Department, however, there is nothing about this on their website, or any other official documentation I've found. 

 

"Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand."

Personal Income Tax | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

As they do accept that it is the case in my district, I'm not complaining, but, unless someone can actually quote a declaration that the "same calendar year" proviso is official, I wouldn't be surprised if they did try and tax all overseas income remitted to Thailand at some point, regardless of what year it was earned.  In fact, with the introduction of CRS, Thailand could well make tax residents declare and pay tax on all overseas income (that wasn't already taxed by a country having a treaty with Thailand), whether it was remitted or not - which is what my own country would do to me if I was still a tax resident there.  I'm not losing any sleep over this, but have considered some options should it eventuate.

 

The Revenue Department can, and do, flag passports of those who they suspect owe them taxes, making it impossible to even do a 90 day report, let alone a visa extension, until it is settled.  I know this from personal experience, and from others who have been in the same boat.  (In my case it was due to my retiring from a job here and converting to a retirement extension.  All necessary taxes were paid, however the Bangkok branch of the Revenue Department wanted to know why I was still in Thailand, but hadn't filed a tax return with them.  The answer was I am now dealing with the office in my home district, and not the Bangkok one, and they obviously don't communicate very well.  The immigration officer in Buriram was very helpful with this, calling the Revenue Department and arguing my case.  He told me that this has happened on a number of occasions, and not just to those who have ever worked in Thailand, with some of them resulting in the passport holder having to file a return and pay tax on money brought into the country before being able to apply for an extension).

 

When I was working here, my company used a multinational accounting firm to deal with the taxes of its expat employees.  Before I retired, I asked for some advice from them on how best to handle continuing to live here by bringing in money earned from overseas tax-free investments.  Their reply was basically if the Revenue Department decide to audit you, which they very well could, they will want to see your bank statement(s) here and you must account for all money deposited into your account, whether from Thailand or abroad.  If you remitted the money from an overseas bank, they want to see statements from that bank showing not only that the account had sufficient funds at the start of the year, but also what was deposited into that account prior to you remitting the money - if you remitted money every month then they'd want to see statements for every month. You must also account for any deposits made over that period, and prove that tax had been paid on them in a country having a tax treaty with Thailand.  I handle this by remitting my year's money supply, from an account in Singapore, over the first half of the year and printing off statements for those months clearly showing nothing has been deposited in the bank over that period.  I highlight and number each transfer and do the same on my local statements.  I then top up that account near the end of the year with money from my investments.  This worked for me when I was flagged by the Revenue Department, and continues to work each year at my local Revenue office.  For anyone thinking this is unwieldy and unneccessary, I say that you may not have needed to do this in the past, but from my own experience, and the words of the immigration officer and tax accountant, it may only be a matter of time before you are called to do it.

 

 

So this works because you are able to show the money was there at the start of the year, with nothing going in between then and your transfer into Thailand? So it’s considered “savings” and you don’t have to account for its origin?

Edited June 13, 2022 by Everyman

[CartagenaWarlock]

I keep less than 200K in my Krungsri bank and every month I get approximately 130-150 in interest and then they deduct around 20 baht for taxes. I use my bangkok  bank for daily expenses that also has around 200K but I don't see any interest or taxes. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by CartagenaWarlock

[ballpoint]

5 hours ago, Everyman said:

So this works because you are able to show the money was there at the start of the year, with nothing going in between then and your transfer into Thailand? So it’s considered “savings” and you don’t have to account for its origin?

That's correct.  If I transferred all the money in January, I'd just have to show a statement for that month - showing that enough money was in there on the 1st.  If I transferred it in, say October, I'd have to show statements for every month up to then, again showing the money was in there on January 1st, and no unaccounted for deposits were made in between.

[Everyman]

2 hours ago, ballpoint said:

That's correct.  If I transferred all the money in January, I'd just have to show a statement for that month - showing that enough money was in there on the 1st.  If I transferred it in, say October, I'd have to show statements for every month up to then, again showing the money was in there on January 1st, and no unaccounted for deposits were made in between.

In practice this seems like it requires a “cushion” of money that may not be collecting very much interest. Very annoying to have to do this.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Everyman

[ballpoint]

6 hours ago, Everyman said:

In practice this seems like it requires a “cushion” of money that may not be collecting very much interest. Very annoying to have to do this.

If you're bringing in money that has already had legitimate taxes paid on it from a country with a tax treaty with Thailand, then no problem, you can bring it in any time as long as you have the proof that tax was paid, however, my money comes from tax free investments.  In many years, the taxes I'd have to pay on these if I was a resident of my own country, or many others, are greater than the amount of money I bring into Thailand each year - which is no small amount, so, unless anyone can point me to an investment that consistently gives a far greater than 100% return in a year, I'm not complaining about losing a bit of interest.

 

Alternate options are: 

1. Just transfer as and when required, and hope that you don't get audited, which is what many people do (including myself in the past) - and the vast majority get away with it. But since the Revenue Department are now flagging passports, and the Immigration Department are following up on them, it may be more a case of when rather than if it becomes your turn. 

 

2. Spend less than 180 days in Thailand, and any other country, in a year.  This is an option I'd consider if Thailand ever started trying to tax all overseas income, whether it was transferred here or not.  Maybe five months in Thailand, five in my own country, and two vacationing in others each year.  Or do what I did for much of my working life - alternate four weeks here, four weeks elsewhere, making sure nowhere got up to 180 days in a single year.

 

3. Live by withdrawing from your overseas accounts using ATMs, or foreign credit cards at cashless sales points.  It would be relatively expensive due to fees and generally poorer exchange rates, but, for me, it would be still cheaper than paying taxes.  (And maybe this loophole will be closed as well if banks start reporting multiple withdrawals from foreign ATMs under CRS.  You'd also still have to deposit some of the money in your Thai account if you want to use a local debit card, which would have to be accounted for as well.).

 

4. Move to a country with less stringent tax rules, which unfortunately are becoming fewer and fewer due to increasing global tax fraud and money laundering measures.  There are still some about though.

[Everyman]

On 6/14/2022 at 7:23 PM, ballpoint said:

If you're bringing in money that has already had legitimate taxes paid on it from a country with a tax treaty with Thailand, then no problem, you can bring it in any time as long as you have the proof that tax was paid, however, my money comes from tax free investments.  In many years, the taxes I'd have to pay on these if I was a resident of my own country, or many others, are greater than the amount of money I bring into Thailand each year - which is no small amount, so, unless anyone can point me to an investment that consistently gives a far greater than 100% return in a year, I'm not complaining about losing a bit of interest.

 

Alternate options are: 

1. Just transfer as and when required, and hope that you don't get audited, which is what many people do (including myself in the past) - and the vast majority get away with it. But since the Revenue Department are now flagging passports, and the Immigration Department are following up on them, it may be more a case of when rather than if it becomes your turn. 

 

2. Spend less than 180 days in Thailand, and any other country, in a year.  This is an option I'd consider if Thailand ever started trying to tax all overseas income, whether it was transferred here or not.  Maybe five months in Thailand, five in my own country, and two vacationing in others each year.  Or do what I did for much of my working life - alternate four weeks here, four weeks elsewhere, making sure nowhere got up to 180 days in a single year.

 

3. Live by withdrawing from your overseas accounts using ATMs, or foreign credit cards at cashless sales points.  It would be relatively expensive due to fees and generally poorer exchange rates, but, for me, it would be still cheaper than paying taxes.  (And maybe this loophole will be closed as well if banks start reporting multiple withdrawals from foreign ATMs under CRS.  You'd also still have to deposit some of the money in your Thai account if you want to use a local debit card, which would have to be accounted for as well.).

 

4. Move to a country with less stringent tax rules, which unfortunately are becoming fewer and fewer due to increasing global tax fraud and money laundering measures.  There are still some about though.

My money is earned overseas and taxes are paid there, but it goes through an account with a lot of activity and i wouldn’t possibly be able to present paperwork on everything.

 

I also overpay taxes on thing so i don’t have to pay on another, and that’s allowed by that country. 

 

food for thought 

[Everyman]

If they start hauling retirees before the revenue department to prove they paid taxes on their pensions it would be a disaster. I imagine they are tax free in some countries, plus a lot of them would struggle to sort it out and just end up on overstay because they can’t renew their visas.