chevykanteve Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) Update: District chief dies in car bombing (BangkokPost.com) - Insurgents escalated their growing campaign in the South on Tuesday, blowing up a car of a district chief in Pattani province and killing three people on their way to inspect a school destroyed by arson. The rebels burned down a school at Ban Ta Lo Sai Thong village, Mai Kaen district on Monday night. On Tuesday morning when officials went to investigate the fire, insurgents touched off a bomb that destroyed the officials' car. Killed was district chief Chaithat Raksayot, along with the senior Isoc officer in the district, and a security volunteer. An army sergeant major was wounded. The "nai amphur" was the highest ranking civilian official killed by the Islamist rebels in their increasingly serious attacks against the government and civilians in the four southernmost provinces. How many schools have been torched/destroyed in South Thailand? Before, it was a question of schools in that region being burned down and teachers being assassinated. NOW, the "liberationists" or "separatists" ..... or whatever you want to call them (using the most polite of language) are killing --indeed, MURDERING-- little children as well. And a "District Chief" (=District Officer) has now also met his demise in a car-bomb incident in that same region. The District Officer aside, aren't there enough soldiers available to protect the children of southern Thailand? Or must all the crack-troops be maintained in Bangkok to protect the (self-) chosen ones??? Edited June 19, 2007 by chevykanteve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkandrew Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 People dying must not stand in the way of having the ability to have a variety of types of Coup d'etat on demand. Noticed a large number of army 'helping' the police in Dindaeng this afternoon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mid Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 good to see some anger surfacing , take a look at the Southern Thailand Forum ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnvic Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Don't expect a lot of military deployments to the south. There aren't enough golf courses down there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Is the question "Are there EVER enough military to protect a civilian population from a determined insurgency?" ..... if so the answer is "NO!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevykanteve Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 Don't expect a lot of military deployments to the south. There aren't enough golf courses down there. I take your point. Unfortunately, you could be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevykanteve Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 Is the question "Are there EVER enough military to protect a civilian population from a determined insurgency?" ..... if so the answer is "NO!" I didn't say the "civilian population [of South Thailand]"; I said the "schools". How many schools are there down there? Three soldiers with M-16s guarding each school x 3 =9 soldiers over a 24-hour shift at 3 soldiers per-shift rotation, per school???? The Thai army doesn't have the manpower and weapons for that? I don't believe it. THE CHILDREN ARE DYING DOWN THERE. How can the army be so incredibly incompetent in the protection of its (non-Bangkok) populus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Is the question "Are there EVER enough military to protect a civilian population from a determined insurgency?" ..... if so the answer is "NO!" I didn't say the "civilian population [of South Thailand]"; I said the "schools". How many schools are there down there? Three soldiers with M-16s guarding each school x 3 =9 soldiers over a 24-hour shift at 3 soldiers per-shift rotation, per school???? The Thai army doesn't have the manpower and weapons for that? I don't believe it. THE CHILDREN ARE DYING DOWN THERE. How can the army be so incredibly incompetent in the protection of its (non-Bangkok) populus? The answer remains the same ... "NO" Overly protect the schools and then the bombings etc happen en-route. Increasing the military presence enough to make it impossible to make attacks is not possible .. not anywhere. There probably is no military solution to the issues in the south. I wish there were, but there are not any that I can see. There may be a way through negotiations to put an end to this. Some semi autonomy ... some of the long awaited decentralisation of power. Official recognition in gov't offices of local language etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevykanteve Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 Is the question "Are there EVER enough military to protect a civilian population from a determined insurgency?" ..... if so the answer is "NO!" I didn't say the "civilian population [of South Thailand]"; I said the "schools". How many schools are there down there? Three soldiers with M-16s guarding each school x 3 =9 soldiers over a 24-hour shift at 3 soldiers per-shift rotation, per school???? The Thai army doesn't have the manpower and weapons for that? I don't believe it. THE CHILDREN ARE DYING DOWN THERE. How can the army be so incredibly incompetent in the protection of its (non-Bangkok) populus? The answer remains the same ... "NO" Overly protect the schools and then the bombings etc happen en-route. Increasing the military presence enough to make it impossible to make attacks is not possible .. not anywhere. There probably is no military solution to the issues in the south. I wish there were, but there are not any that I can see. There may be a way through negotiations to put an end to this. Some semi autonomy ... some of the long awaited decentralisation of power. Official recognition in gov't offices of local language etc etc A good response... well thought-out too; I can't disagree with your points...... other than one. That is, your reference to "semi-autonomy". I mean, it's all or nothing: defend or allow partition. It's obvious that the "separatists" have the upper-hand down there over the Thai army. I suspect the reason for that is that a majority of villagers in that zone are in favor of creating an independent country. The situation is sort of reminiscent of the Vietnam War: the "enemy" was the majority of villagers, and you can't defeat an almost-totally-popular movement. This is a lesson in history that certain parties in Bangkok may themselves discover sooner rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Sorry ... but I do not believe you are correct. I tend to go with the folks that have been there more than me that state with no qualms, that the majority of the people in the South are content to be "Thai". An insurgency like this does NOT need huge numbers .. it just needs a determined core group. Delivering on the promises made to the whole country in the past of letting provincial governors be elected by the people they serve would be a first good step. Acknowleding that there is indeed a seperate language that is spoken would be a good second step. Letting people use what is indeed their native tongue in dealing with government offices and banks etc is vital. I am in no way saying do not require learning Thai ... or being loyal to the state ... just acknowledge the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkandrew Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Is the question "Are there EVER enough military to protect a civilian population from a determined insurgency?" ..... if so the answer is "NO!" I didn't say the "civilian population [of South Thailand]"; I said the "schools". How many schools are there down there? Three soldiers with M-16s guarding each school x 3 =9 soldiers over a 24-hour shift at 3 soldiers per-shift rotation, per school???? The Thai army doesn't have the manpower and weapons for that? I don't believe it. THE CHILDREN ARE DYING DOWN THERE. How can the army be so incredibly incompetent in the protection of its (non-Bangkok) populus? The answer remains the same ... "NO" Overly protect the schools and then the bombings etc happen en-route. Increasing the military presence enough to make it impossible to make attacks is not possible .. not anywhere. There probably is no military solution to the issues in the south. I wish there were, but there are not any that I can see. There may be a way through negotiations to put an end to this. Some semi autonomy ... some of the long awaited decentralisation of power. Official recognition in gov't offices of local language etc etc The first duty of any government is to protect its citizens from foreigners and fellow citizens alike. How ironic that this military Junta, when playing governing, fails in this most basic of tasks and has let the situation in the South deteriorate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mid Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 How ironic that this military Junta, when playing governing, fails in this most basic of tasks and has let the situation in the South deteriorate... given that the South was one of the major reasons given .................................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeaceBlondie Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 As an absolute pacifist who would never resort to the use of violence toward any person for any reason whatsoever, I see militarization of a regional or ethnic problem as being violentization of the problem, rather than pacification of the problem. The myth of violent redemption, in Buddhism as well as Islam and persversions of Christianity, is that you can redeem problems and people by killing people. Rambo was not Jesus, and vice versa. When did the Buddha ever teach that it was righteous to kill Muslims and Buddhists? Use non-violent methods, before all the violent methods fatally fail. And when those peaceful methods have been tried, think of some more. Perhaps the Thai citizens in the south don't rise up and kill the bastards because they don't believe in hating their enemy, or overcoming evil with evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim armstrong Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Is the question "Are there EVER enough military to protect a civilian population from a determined insurgency?" ..... if so the answer is "NO!" I didn't say the "civilian population [of South Thailand]"; I said the "schools". How many schools are there down there? Three soldiers with M-16s guarding each school x 3 =9 soldiers over a 24-hour shift at 3 soldiers per-shift rotation, per school???? The Thai army doesn't have the manpower and weapons for that? I don't believe it. THE CHILDREN ARE DYING DOWN THERE. How can the army be so incredibly incompetent in the protection of its (non-Bangkok) populus? The answer remains the same ... "NO" Overly protect the schools and then the bombings etc happen en-route. Increasing the military presence enough to make it impossible to make attacks is not possible .. not anywhere. There probably is no military solution to the issues in the south. I wish there were, but there are not any that I can see. There may be a way through negotiations to put an end to this. Some semi autonomy ... some of the long awaited decentralisation of power. Official recognition in gov't offices of local language etc etc Interesting about the local language issue. I wonder if the soldiers are from local communities and can speak the language ? They would then also be related to the'liberationists'. But maybe thats wishful thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 How ironic that this military Junta, when playing governing, fails in this most basic of tasks and has let the situation in the South deteriorate... Nice sound-bite ...... The question is .... what do you with your vast knowledge of the topic and even greater experience, suggest they do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mid Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Radio Australia Thailand says it will deploy another 2,700 army rangers to help quell a bloody insurgency in the country's mainly Muslim southern provinces. The Thai cabinet has approved a budget of around $US45 million to recruit, train and deploy the army rangers. The government is believed to already have at least 30,000 personnel along the southern border with Malaysia, where militants have been battling Bangkok forces for more than three years. More than 2,200 people have been killed and thousands more wounded since separatist violence erupted in the south in early 2004. There's been a sharp escalation in violence this year despite a series of peace initiatives by the army-installed government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkandrew Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 How ironic that this military Junta, when playing governing, fails in this most basic of tasks and has let the situation in the South deteriorate... Nice sound-bite ...... The question is .... what do you with your vast knowledge of the topic and even greater experience, suggest they do? Sorry son, not my job. I did not stage a Coup d'etat, deploy tanks, soldiers and munitions in the capital city, in order to seize power. The Junta did that and now must exercise their power in an appropriate way. Sadly they are not doing this and are more interested in playing out games of counter-coups than solving problems. At least I have enough knowledge and experience to not stage a coup here to put any theories of dispute resolution to the test! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 How ironic that this military Junta, when playing governing, fails in this most basic of tasks and has let the situation in the South deteriorate... Nice sound-bite ...... The question is .... what do you with your vast knowledge of the topic and even greater experience, suggest they do? Sorry son, not my job. I did not stage a Coup d'etat, deploy tanks, soldiers and munitions in the capital city, in order to seize power. The Junta did that and now must exercise their power in an appropriate way. Sadly they are not doing this and are more interested in playing out games of counter-coups than solving problems. At least I have enough knowledge and experience to not stage a coup here to put any theories of dispute resolution to the test! Another nice sound-bite and again ... you are making it about the coup .. and not about the south ... a common trick used in debate ... but ultimatly a loser because it does not address the issue. From a military standpoint these the CNS is comprised of 2 of the people that would have been responsible for the issues in the South already. The situation in the south was heading downhill as fast under Thaksin as it is now .... a slow progression into a regional civil war instead of an insurgency. So instead of talking about the coup .... tell us about the south! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkandrew Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) How ironic that this military Junta, when playing governing, fails in this most basic of tasks and has let the situation in the South deteriorate... Nice sound-bite ...... The question is .... what do you with your vast knowledge of the topic and even greater experience, suggest they do? Sorry son, not my job. I did not stage a Coup d'etat, deploy tanks, soldiers and munitions in the capital city, in order to seize power. The Junta did that and now must exercise their power in an appropriate way. Sadly they are not doing this and are more interested in playing out games of counter-coups than solving problems. At least I have enough knowledge and experience to not stage a coup here to put any theories of dispute resolution to the test! Another nice sound-bite and again ... you are making it about the coup .. and not about the south ... a common trick used in debate ... but ultimatly a loser because it does not address the issue. From a military standpoint these the CNS is comprised of 2 of the people that would have been responsible for the issues in the South already. The situation in the south was heading downhill as fast under Thaksin as it is now .... a slow progression into a regional civil war instead of an insurgency. So instead of talking about the coup .... tell us about the south! But you have answered your own question! Instead of concentrating on their job in the South, they play power games up here in Bangkok. Inevitably, with the CNS 2's snouts in the trough, the insurgents sense that they are not the focus of attention, which gives them the confidence to increase their murdering, maiming and burning. Edited June 19, 2007 by bkkandrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 How ironic that this military Junta, when playing governing, fails in this most basic of tasks and has let the situation in the South deteriorate... Nice sound-bite ...... The question is .... what do you with your vast knowledge of the topic and even greater experience, suggest they do? Sorry son, not my job. I did not stage a Coup d'etat, deploy tanks, soldiers and munitions in the capital city, in order to seize power. The Junta did that and now must exercise their power in an appropriate way. Sadly they are not doing this and are more interested in playing out games of counter-coups than solving problems. At least I have enough knowledge and experience to not stage a coup here to put any theories of dispute resolution to the test! Another nice sound-bite and again ... you are making it about the coup .. and not about the south ... a common trick used in debate ... but ultimatly a loser because it does not address the issue. From a military standpoint these the CNS is comprised of 2 of the people that would have been responsible for the issues in the South already. The situation in the south was heading downhill as fast under Thaksin as it is now .... a slow progression into a regional civil war instead of an insurgency. So instead of talking about the coup .... tell us about the south! But you have answered your own question! Instead of concentrating on their job in the South, they play power games up here in Bangkok. Inevitably, with the CNS 2's snouts in the trough, the insurgents sense that they are not the focus of attention, which gives them the confidence to increase their murdering, maiming and burning. again .. you focus not on the south .. but on the junta ... a regular one-trick-pony! The 2 of the CNS are not the only folks that would have had any say over the south. Thay did assign their top counter-insurgency guy down there (not a nice fellow .. but he did help to end the communist insurgency if I have my guys right ((The head of the army would never be the guy that would be down in the fighting ... but you know that ... this is just another chance to rant about the coup)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkandrew Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 How ironic that this military Junta, when playing governing, fails in this most basic of tasks and has let the situation in the South deteriorate... Nice sound-bite ...... The question is .... what do you with your vast knowledge of the topic and even greater experience, suggest they do? Sorry son, not my job. I did not stage a Coup d'etat, deploy tanks, soldiers and munitions in the capital city, in order to seize power. The Junta did that and now must exercise their power in an appropriate way. Sadly they are not doing this and are more interested in playing out games of counter-coups than solving problems. At least I have enough knowledge and experience to not stage a coup here to put any theories of dispute resolution to the test! Another nice sound-bite and again ... you are making it about the coup .. and not about the south ... a common trick used in debate ... but ultimatly a loser because it does not address the issue. From a military standpoint these the CNS is comprised of 2 of the people that would have been responsible for the issues in the South already. The situation in the south was heading downhill as fast under Thaksin as it is now .... a slow progression into a regional civil war instead of an insurgency. So instead of talking about the coup .... tell us about the south! But you have answered your own question! Instead of concentrating on their job in the South, they play power games up here in Bangkok. Inevitably, with the CNS 2's snouts in the trough, the insurgents sense that they are not the focus of attention, which gives them the confidence to increase their murdering, maiming and burning. again .. you focus not on the south .. but on the junta ... a regular one-trick-pony! The 2 of the CNS are not the only folks that would have had any say over the south. Thay did assign their top counter-insurgency guy down there (not a nice fellow .. but he did help to end the communist insurgency if I have my guys right ((The head of the army would never be the guy that would be down in the fighting ... but you know that ... this is just another chance to rant about the coup)) Goodness me, its hard getting through to you. The two matters are inseperable. The Coup Leaders are in charge of the South. Nothing can happen there without their instruction or authorisation. They have bigger fish to fry in Bangkok right now, so the South goes to sh1t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 bkkandrew ..... that fails to address the earlier staements made that the situation has been GRADUALLY getting worse for the last 3+ years ... and the failures of the previous government to deal with it. I KNOW you want to make this about the Junta ... just as I know you don't care to give one single suggestion on how to deal wth it. Why? I would guess that it is because the only thing that matters to you is the Junta and not the south. (your other posts would indicate this too) If yu cannot accept that there is NO SHORTTERM sollution to the south and that at least the group now has been trying ... well .... then there is just no point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkandrew Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) bkkandrew .....that fails to address the earlier staements made that the situation has been GRADUALLY getting worse for the last 3+ years ... and the failures of the previous government to deal with it. I KNOW you want to make this about the Junta ... just as I know you don't care to give one single suggestion on how to deal wth it. Why? I would guess that it is because the only thing that matters to you is the Junta and not the south. (your other posts would indicate this too) If yu cannot accept that there is NO SHORTTERM sollution to the south and that at least the group now has been trying ... well .... then there is just no point Nonsense. The thread title is "Can The Thai Army Protect Anyone In Thailand", referencing the South. Therefore is specific about The Junta (The Army) and The South. Understand now? Also, I am well aware that Toxin had mad ideas about how to deal with the South and they were not exactly helped by his obsession to cling to power (in Bangkok) and flog telecomms companies to Singaporeans, via companies in the BVI. Again, proving that taking your eye off a problem will lead it to getting worse. Dealing with the South effectively requires focus by National politicians. This has not happened for some time, due to the antics of Mr T and now the present mob, both of whom seem to place the importance of the subject off their top-10 'to-do' list. /edit blo0dy grammar Edited June 19, 2007 by bkkandrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 The Army is more than the Junta like you said the thread is not entitled "Can't the government ...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkkandrew Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 (edited) The Army is more than the Junta like you said the thread is not entitled "Can't the government ...." I don't know if you missed it, but in October there was a military Coup d'etat in Thailand. The Coup-makers were from the Army, Navy and Air Force and they formed the CNS. To date I am unaware of any Army (or Navy/Air Force) unit that has opposed the Coup and have seen no reports of inter-Army battles. With this in mind, I think it is safe to describe the Junta as being the Army and vice-versa... I am really unsure to why you are arguing with me over something so straightforward! /edit spelling Edited June 20, 2007 by bkkandrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellow1 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 From what I read,I am left with the impression that people in the south,have been disappearing for some time.Not to mention the ones, accidentally meeting their death as a result of poor transportation methods.Like being handcuffed face down and piled three deep onto trucks,in sweltering heat.This has been going on for many years according to articles I've read.I'm sure for many grieving families a"I'm Sorry"and a beautiful paper bird will suffice.But I get the feeling that some people may actually be really pissed off, and are now looking for blood.It's called a Vendetta or a Blood Feud. Not to mention that Thailand took over these Sultanates in the early 1900's and made them part of Thailand. I don't condone terrorism of any kind,but its hard to appease people, after killing their relatives, and taking their land, and identity. Of course, I can be completely wrong. Thailand has problems on many issues,I don't see why the South should be an exception.The whole world has problems with terrorism.Some just can deal with it better than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbowman1993 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 The Army is more than the Junta like you said the thread is not entitled "Can't the government ...." I don't know if you missed it, but in October there was a military Coup d'etat in Thailand. The Coup-makers were from the Army, Navy and Air Force and they formed the CNS. To date I am unaware of any Army (or Navy/Air Force) unit that has opposed the Coup and have seen no reports of inter-Army battles. With this in mind, I think it is safe to describe the Junta as being the Army and vice-versa... I am really unsure to why you are arguing with me over something so straightforward! /edit spelling Why don't you guys PM back and forth, instead of subjecting the rest of us to your game of "yes you did!" Oh no I didn't!" typed diarrhea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary A Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I too think the army is far too busy keeping track of Thaksin and his followers to worry about the south. As to what I would do, I would give the three provinces to the muslims and build a wall to separate them from the rest of Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mid Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I would give the three provinces to the muslims Songkhla ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losangels Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Don't agree with giving the three southern provinces to the insurgent. What will happen next? Will there be other provinces that want their own independence based on history and start to slaughter people just to achieve it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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