Trump under investigation for potential violations of Espionage Act

[stevenl]

13 minutes ago, bunnydrops said:

I guess what puzzles me the most was why did the government have to go and say "pretty please" return the docs. Why wouldn't DT have just avoided this mess and just return them? What did think he would gain from keeping them? As for the he declassified the docs. Even some declassified docs that have to do with national security still need to be kept in  government hands.

Have a look at this guy's Facebook feed. Well argued and clearly presented opinions, https://www.facebook.com/579515442/posts/pfbid0Rs7h8k2vXqPcXwxi8JNbNzY3TWqaRSYiHkvXtF97pg6WJuYaRpRNBT4ZZS2DH7uel/?app=fbl

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Did you ever take your books home from school ?

The books that belong to the school ?

Won't the school want those books back after almost 2 years?

[coolcarer]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Did you ever take your books home from school ?

The books that belong to the school ?

Trump was expelled from school, Biden took his place. Trump didn’t return school property.

[placeholder]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally
(a)Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
(b)Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2071

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

False.

 

18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally
(a)Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
(b)Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2071

He was in charge , it was lawful 

[placeholder]

24 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

He was in charge , it was lawful 

You clearly haven't read the statute. It says "whoever". No exceptions. Trump was President of the United States. Not King, not Emperor of the United States. He was not above the law. 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

He was in charge , it was lawful 

I suggest you look at the acts quoted in the warrant, they were posted earlier in this thread, did you not read them? It is was not lawful and that's why the Judge ordered a warrant for the seizure and return.

[Mac Mickmanus]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I suggest you look at the acts quoted in the warrant, they were posted earlier in this thread, did you not read them? It is was not lawful and that's why the Judge ordered a warrant for the seizure and return.

Yes, he had a personal letter from Korean Kim 

Send the FBI around to get it back 

[Bkk Brian]

11 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, he had a personal letter from Korean Kim 

Send the FBI around to get it back 

That was just one of the docs returned earlier this year, nothing to do with this warrant , 13 pages in and you've still not come to grips with it...............

 

"Agents removed 11 sets of documents, including some marked "TS/SCI", a designation for material that could cause "exceptionally grave" damage to US national security."

[spidermike007]

7 hours ago, mikeymike100 said:

Well he would have to be found guilty first by a jury of his peers? So I agree, if he gets charged, goes to court, gets found guilty of something he should get whatever the judge deals him. But until then surely he is Innocent?

Innocent of what? Innocent is not an adjective that comes to mind when discussing Trump. 

[riclag]

12 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

So the documents marked as classified including some as top secret that were in the warrant receipt were the ones the FBI planted?

 

Of did he declassify them when he was President and forgot to go through legal process of getting them officially stamped as such, both in the headers and footers?

The process was covered in the 

in both links, I posted! 

The office of the President , regardless of who it is , has declassification capability’s absolute ,in effect sweeping!

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

 

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/all-things-trump/breaking-trump-describes-process-how-he-declassified-documents

“The Presidents detractors are likely to contest Trump and his argument but officials familiar with national security law said courts have held the office’s power to declassify is far reaching and that the process for how that happens can be more happenstance,something the bush and obama EO’s of 2003 and 2009 made clear”.

 The haters of the FPOTUS are over reacting and over reaching again!imop

[Bkk Brian]

7 hours ago, riclag said:

The process was covered in the 

in both links, I posted! 

The office of the President , regardless of who it is , has declassification capability’s absolute ,in effect sweeping!

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

 

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/all-things-trump/breaking-trump-describes-process-how-he-declassified-documents

“The Presidents detractors are likely to contest Trump and his argument but officials familiar with national security law said courts have held the office’s power to declassify is far reaching and that the process for how that happens can be more happenstance,something the bush and obama EO’s of 2003 and 2009 made clear”.

 The haters of the FPOTUS are over reacting and over reaching again!imop

This is the reality:

 

If Trump did in fact order the declassification, he still needed to make sure his staff took the necessary next steps to modify the classification markings on the documents before he could actually handle and store the records (as a private citizen) as if they were unclassified. Under security classification rules, a classification marking on a document has to be treated as valid and binding unless and until a subsequent marking replaces it. Appropriate government staffers would have needed to cross out the classification markings in the headers and footers, and stamped “declassified” on the record noting when it was declassified, by whom and under what authority. Since that does not appear to have been done with the classified documents reportedly identified to date, the documents remain classified and had to be treated as classified for handling and storage purposes. 

 

https://www.justsecurity.org/82619/expert-explainer-criminal-statutes-that-could-apply-to-trumps-retention-of-government-documents/

 

In addition you also need to look up and read what these acts refer to 793, 2071 and 1519. placeholder has even posted one above for you 2071 to read

 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, riclag said:

The process was covered in the 

in both links, I posted! 

The office of the President , regardless of who it is , has declassification capability’s absolute ,in effect sweeping!

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/all-things-trump/breaking-trump-describes-process-how-he-declassified-documents

“The Presidents detractors are likely to contest Trump and his argument but officials familiar with national security law said courts have held the office’s power to declassify is far reaching and that the process for how that happens can be more happenstance,something the bush and obama EO’s of 2003 and 2009 made clear”.

 The haters of the FPOTUS are over reacting and over reaching again!imop

The quote from politifact is about the president speaking about some particular classified info. 

As for claims being overreaching:

"He had to identify the specific documents he was declassifying, he needed to memorialize the order in writing for bureaucratic and historical purposes, and he needed to have staff physically modify the classification markings on the documents themselves," Moss said. "Until that was done, the documents, per the security classification procedures, still have to be handled, transmitted and stored as if they were classified."...

"If the documents are still marked classified 18 months after their removal from the White House," Blanton told PolitiFact, "then Trump was too busy to order them declassified at the time."

https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/aug/11/could-trump-argue-declassified-documents/

[Phoenix Rising]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

Talking about biden (Big guy) and his family is frowned upon.

Have you noticed who this thread is about?

[riclag]

3 hours ago, TKDfella said:

IMO it doesn't matter what side of the fence you are on, classified or declassified government documents should not be at anyone's private residence. They should be left at the office where they belong.

Exactly! Trumps office! And over the history of the office of the Potus  they have taken docs out  as well I imagine. Imop

[candide]

3 hours ago, michael87 said:

“Recovered items that were improperly taken to Mar-a-Lago include a cocktail napkin, a birthday dinner menu, “—a cocktail napkin? Has the FBI lost its mind?

Do you mean that the FBI planted a napkin? That would be quite stupid from them.

 

Oops! I forgot! The "planted" campaign, that was yesterday! Today it's the "napkin" campaign. ????

[Walker88]

1 hour ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Did you ever take your books home from school ?

The books that belong to the school ?

Can you post any more uninformed and naive of a comment?

 

Highly classified material relating to national security isn't some Phonics book or a Cat in the Hat.

 

JFC you 45 cultists are in so deep sniffing the vapors in the fever swamps.

 

Good things none of you ever got close to anything meaningful regarding US natsec in your lives.

 

CLASSIFIED. National Security. Sources and methods. get it?  I doubt it. You lack the intelligence to begin to understand.

 

People better than that festering pile of subhuman filth could ever be in his wildest delusional fantasies went into harm's way to keep the country safe. That slug jeopardizes everything with his wanton recklessness.

 

That you don't care says you are NOT a patriot...not even close.

[Scott]

A post and reply from an unapproved source have been removed along with an off-topic post. 

 

[pomchop]

Wow.  The trump defenders on here have perhaps reached a new low in disinformation.  If they would spend just a few minutes doing the most basic research they "might" understand that most of what they are spouting out has been debunked over and over. 

 

No Obama did not steal 30 million docs, yes trump did have multiple chances to return docs that he ILLEGALLY took to his residence,  yes trumps lawyer and his own son did watch the search on video with no planted evidence, no the docs were not stamped declassified, no taking classified docs is not the same as not returning a library book, no hillary's email server did not have 30k classified emails, and no the easter bunny is not real,.......just to mention a  few of the tin hat BS <deleted> being promoted.

 

Grow a brain.

[Credo]

6 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Did you ever take your books home from school ?

The books that belong to the school ?

Yes, I did.  It was with the permission of the school and one year there weren't enough books, so we had to share.  There was a schedule, I had the book on Monday, Wed and Friday. and the other person had it Tuesday and Thursday.  The next week it switched and weekends were alternated.  

 

At the end of the year, the books had to be turned in and if we didn't, we were not given our grades.  

 

We also had a library and it some books which for various reasons could not be checked out.  You could review them in the library but you couldn't remove them from a special room.  

 

Nobody gave Trump permission to remove documents.  Whether they are classified or not, they are the property of the US gov't and they will determine what can and cannot be taken and where.   

Taking things that don't belong to you is stealing.  That is what Trump did.  He took stuff illegally that does not belong to him.   

 

[Chomper Higgot]

5 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Trump was owner of the School at the time and he could do whatever he wanted with the property 

Trump was President, not King a distinction that might cause confusion to subjects of a crown.

[Chomper Higgot]

I hear talk of Trump getting 10-20. 

Row 10, Block 20.

[Chomper Higgot]

*Deleted post edited out*

 

Stealing government documents, regardless of their classification is a serious crime.

 

As has been explained above numerous times.

[Thingamabob]

10 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Who told you?

An American friend. I fear you've missed the irony in my post. My fault.

 

[Walker88]

45 seems to think---perhaps that's hope---that ALL the American people plus the courts are as willfully ignorant and naive as his cult members.

 

His latest patently silly defense---besides being an outright lie---makes zero sense except to the pathologically brain addled Drooling Goober demographic.

 

In essence, he is trying to claim he took work home at night to prepare for the next day and had a standing order to declassify everything he took outside of the Oval Office.

 

BS.

 

1) There is no record of this 'standing order'

2) If he had unilaterally declassified everything:

 

2a) There would be a paper trail and all docs would have had TS, TS/SCI, SAP, etc. heading removed and a stamp saying DECLASSIFIED would be on each page, and stacks of memos would all have the signature of the White House counsel plus most would be initialed by various agency heads such as DCI, DNI, DirFBI, DirNSA, etc.

 

2b) All of those now declassified docs could then be posted in the NYTs or handed out at Union Station in DC, since they were no longer classified. This would include things like CIA asset names, covert action operations, data on russian weapons system, the political intentions of guys like putin and xi, the whereabouts of terrorists like then-alive Ayman al-Zawahiri, new US Mil weapons systems under development

 

I can see a typical breakfast chat in the US..."Hey, honey, did you know the CIA has listening devices in putin's bedroom? Those guys are good ! Hope nobody tells little vladdy !"

 

What great reading that would have been !  For the FSB/SVR/GRU.

 

In any event, his statement---issued through Fox---is simply a lie. Not even a bald faced lie...it is a lie even a child would not believe. The flailing, bloated, repulsive, anti-American dollop of garbage is trying to save spending his remaining useless years above ground out of Leavenworth.

 

Sorry, fat boy. It's Leavenworth, then worm food.

[bamnutsak]

As president, Trump approved a law increasing penalties for mishandling classified info. It could come back to bite him.

 

A bill that Donald Trump signed into law in 2018 could be used to punish the former president if he's found to have mishandled classified information after leaving office.

 

Bradley P. Moss, a national security attorney, told Insider that Trump could face five years in prison if he's found guilty under a national security bill that he signed as president.

 

It upgraded the seriousness of wrongly moving classified material, turning it from a misdemeanor into a felony — and increasing the maximum sentence to five years, up from one.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/law-trump-signed-2018-may-punish-him-classified-info-2022-8

 

 

 

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-bill/139

 

(Sec. 202) The penalty for the unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material is increased from one to five years.

[CharlieH]

Reported flame posts removed.

[ThailandRyan]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

*Deleted post edited out*

 

Stealing government documents, regardless of their classification is a serious crime.

 

As has been explained above numerous times.

But, But, But.....says the trump supporters, when in reality what you hear is the roar of the justice system as it has been unleashed.  The man had his chances to rectify the situation, but instead wanted to play his games.  All he had to do was turn everything over when he left office and then request certain documents be released to him, better yet they would have been moved to a presidential library, but then Trump will never have a presidential library.  He may never serve time, but he will be charged, and that in itself is a blow to his ego, but like his impeachment he will claim that he has won and not been imprisoned only possibly paroled or even pardoned by a Presidential decree which would make whomever is the President at the time look magnanimous.

 

[Lacessit]

9 hours ago, bunnydrops said:

I guess what puzzles me the most was why did the government have to go and say "pretty please" return the docs. Why wouldn't DT have just avoided this mess and just return them? What did think he would gain from keeping them? As for the he declassified the docs. Even some declassified docs that have to do with national security still need to be kept in  government hands.

Best case, Trump was just so arrogant he thought he was able to ignore his own laws.

Middle of the road, there is information in the purloined documents he would prefer no-one else sees.

Worst case, the documents had value, and he was going to sell them. Take your pick.

 

The pro-Trumpers on this thread all refuse to say if they have kicked in $45. If one actually did, the laugh emojis would stretch from here to the moon.

[Berkshire]

8 hours ago, riclag said:

The process was covered in the 

in both links, I posted! 

The office of the President , regardless of who it is , has declassification capability’s absolute ,in effect sweeping!

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

 

You're grasping at straws.  There's a whole process related to declassification and there's no evidence that Trump did this.

 

But let's say you're right, that a President has the ability to essentially declassify anything and everything telepathically.  If he says it's declassified, it's declassified. 

 

But this authority ends when he leaves office.  So when Biden takes office, he can telepathically reclassify everything that Trump just declassified.  So these documents are in fact, classified.  The President says so.  Game over.