Independence referendum: Scottish government loses indyref2 court case

[Bluespunk]

43 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I don't recall saying it was a law.

 

I said it was an agreement by all parties. We took them for their word. Fool me once and all that...

 

If you are looking for court rulings, may I suggest you re-read the title of this thread?

As I thought, no reason there cannot be another referendum.

[hotandsticky]

2 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

As I thought, no reason there cannot be another referendum.

Dream on.....................

 

 

But don't waste your life waiting for it.

[JonnyF]

15 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

As I thought, no reason there cannot be another referendum.

Actually, there is no reason there would be another one.

 

May I refer you to the title of this thread?

[RayC]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

What makes you think "Europe" (I assume you mean the EU) would have you?

Can't see any reason why an independent Scotland wouldn't be successful in an application for EU membership.

 

"Any country that satisfies the conditions for membership can apply. These conditions are known as the 'Copenhagen criteria' and include a stable democracy and the rule of law, a functioning market economy and the acceptance of all EU legislation, including of the euro."

 

https://european-union.europa.eu › ...

Joining the EU - European Union

 

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Of course, they'll make all the right noises until you've actually left the UK (yes, the UK, not England). They'll do anything to destabilize the UK following Brexit, they're still very bitter about that. But once you'd left you'd be at their mercy. There's no charity in the EU, they'd want their pound of flesh and they'd hold all the cards. You'd be in an incredibly weak position and they'd have their foot on your throat and you'd better believe they'd make the most of your vulnerability. Expect 10 years of arduous negotiations followed by a terrible deal. 

It makes you wonder how 27 other nations plus - I think - 5 candidate countries can be so gullible given how evil the EU is.

 

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

 

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

Please link me to the relevant law or constitutional clause that states a referendum can only be held once in a lifetime...

Please link me to the relevant law or constitutional clause that states there must be another referendum.

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, RayC said:

Can't see any reason why an independent Scotland wouldn't be successful in an application for EU membership.

You might want to check out the EU rules on debt.

 

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/independent-scotland-could-face-181-26276527

 

[RayC]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Here's the thing - in both Holyrood and Westminster we have elected a majority of representatives who expressly campaigned upon that very issue. They have a democratic mandate which is being blocked by MPs from another country. 

The SNP has a mandate to seek a referendum not to hold one.

 

Whether morally justified or not, the Supreme Court has ruled that it does not have the legal right to hold one.

 

Having said that imo Brexit was such a fundamental change - and Scotland was so clearly against it - that a second referendum is justified. However, if this is the justification for a second referendum, then the question posed has to be a conjunction e.g. Do you want Scotland to leave AND seek membership of the EU?

 

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

If we were a democracy we would have referenda as often as the electorate wished to have them. Scottish voters have made their desire clear. English MPs are saying no.

I disagree completely.

 

Referendums have implications not just for the party instigating the divorce (Scotland) but also for the party being divorced (the rest of the UK). We need not look any further than Brexit for proof of this 

 

As Brexit has shown,  uncertainty is damaging and negotiations can be torturous and time-consuming. The UK government should not be distracted from the business of governing the UK as a whole by having this uncertainty almost permanently hanging over it.  Westminster should not be beholden to Holyrood.

 

Imo in normal circumstances, the results of referendums need to have an extended period of validity: 'Once in a generation' e.g. every 20 years seems reasonable to me. If 'Leave' prevails, this should allow the newly independent Scotland enough time to implement and measure the effects of any necessary changes. If the vote is 'Stay', then it gives Scottish unionists a period of stability.

 

A 20-year gap between referendums would allow Westminster to govern the UK as a whole - whether that includes Scotland or not - without the threat of distraction.

[RayC]

44 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

You might want to check out the EU rules on debt.

 

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/independent-scotland-could-face-181-26276527

 

No reason why an independent Scotland should not be able to apply for EU membership. Actual admission to the EU could occur after 3 years if the Scottish government manages the debt effectively.

 

EU Debt rule: a country is compliant if the debt-to-GDP ratio is below 60% of GDP or if the excess above 60% of GDP has been declining by 1/20 on average over the past three years.

[JonnyF]

15 minutes ago, RayC said:

No reason why an independent Scotland should not be able to apply for EU membership. Actual admission to the EU could occur after 3 years if the Scottish government manages the debt effectively.

 

EU Debt rule: a country is compliant if the debt-to-GDP ratio is below 60% of GDP or if the excess above 60% of GDP has been declining by 1/20 on average over the past three years.

What makes you think they could manage the debt effectively having just walked away from their biggest trading partner and all of the trade deals it had as part of the UK? Their economy would be in tatters.

 

Unicorn stuff.

 

Anyway, why would they want to join the EU if they want to be Independent? Pretty much the definition of an Oxymoron.

[Phoenix Rising]

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

You'd be in an incredibly weak position and they'd have their foot on your throat and you'd better believe they'd make the most of your vulnerability. Expect 10 years of arduous negotiations followed by a terrible deal. 

You're describing (whatever remains of) Britain's reentry process perfectly. You'll be kept over a barrel for a looong time before graciously being allowed back in - well done!

For an independent Scotland the process will be much smoother for no other reason than the EU wanting to thumb it's nose at the remaining Brexiteers.

[Phoenix Rising]

4 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

It matters not, we are out.

Enjoy your break, back to school soon.

[Phoenix Rising]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Careful, your anti-English bias is showing again.

 

Even the likes of Alex Salmond agreed it was once in a lifetime/generation. Now you lost, you're spitting the dummy and demanding another one ????. If you couldn't be trusted to accept the first result after saying you would, why should we expect you to accept the result of a re-run. You'd just demand a third.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/scottish-independence-referendum-yes-no-agree-once-in-lifetime-vote

 

Lifetime of who? Thousands of those who voted in the referendum are already dead.

[Phulublub]

5 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

What makes you think they could manage the debt effectively having just walked away from their biggest trading partner and all of the trade deals it had as part of the UK? Their economy would be in tatters.

 

Unicorn stuff.

 

Anyway, why would they want to join the EU if they want to be Independent? Pretty much the definition of an Oxymoron.

Says a man who is happy that the UK walked away from its biggest trading partner! 

 

But once again, if they are such a drain, you should be helping them out the door so rUK can prosper.

 

The total strawman of being in EU and independent deserves no further input.

 

PH

[Phoenix Rising]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

You might want to check out the EU rules on debt.

 

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/independent-scotland-could-face-181-26276527

 

From the linked article:

 

"He added: "There will also be assets to take into consideration (e.g. oil and gas) and these will have to be factored in, along with any other liabilities."

 

So not all doom and gloom!

[Phoenix Rising]

11 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

What makes you think they could manage the debt effectively having just walked away from their biggest trading partner and all of the trade deals it had as part of the UK? Their economy would be in tatters.

 

Unicorn stuff.

 

Anyway, why would they want to join the EU if they want to be Independent? Pretty much the definition of an Oxymoron.

"What makes you think they could manage the debt effectively having just walked away from their biggest trading partner and all of the trade deals it had as part of the UK? Their economy would be in tatters."

 

Do you even hear yourself when writing these posts??

[hotandsticky]

13 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Enjoy your break, back to school soon.

I am sure that you will be.

[JonnyF]

8 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

From the linked article:

 

"He added: "There will also be assets to take into consideration (e.g. oil and gas) and these will have to be factored in, along with any other liabilities."

 

So not all doom and gloom!

Ah "Scotland's" oil and gas.

 

Scotland, lefty green Scotland, net zero Scotland, headed up by eco warrior Sturgeon, making all it's money from North Sea oil. ????

 

Almost as funny as proud, nationalist, independent Scotland begging to join the EU's federalist project.

 

It would be even funnier if you actually owned the oil, of course.

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19716393.actually-happened-scotlands-trillions-north-sea-oil-boom/

 

 

 

[johnnybangkok]

19 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

They have already had a vote

How many votes would you like to have ?

Maybe have a vote every five years ?

I really dont get why it has to be, 'you've already voted. That's it! No more referendums!. Ever!'

 

This idea that you don't get to change your mind goes against every democratic principal there is. For gods sake, we have parliamentary elections every 4 years. Do we ever say, 'well that's it, you voted and now you have to live with that decision and that chosen party FOREVER!' Of course not. Every 4 years you are allowed to completely change your mind based on the circumstances at the time. 8 years ago, Scotland voted 'no' to independence but at that time Brexit wasn't even a thing. 8 years later, Brexit has changed everything and it's VERY clear that Scotland did not want to leave the EU and if they had self-determination, would surely have voted to stay.

 

I voted 'no' to Scotland leaving in 2014 but given the choice now, I'm not so sure. A lot of things have changed and I would seriously have to revisit my position with all the NEW INFORMATION I now have. That sounds just like a sensible thing to do.

 

 

 

[johnnybangkok]

37 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

"What makes you think they could manage the debt effectively having just walked away from their biggest trading partner and all of the trade deals it had as part of the UK? Their economy would be in tatters."

 

Do you even hear yourself when writing these posts??

Yeah I noticed that as well.

I'm not sure he's even self-aware enough to see the complete irony in his post.

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

Dream on.....................

 

 

But don't waste your life waiting for it.

Nonetheless the point stands, there is no legal reason a referendum cannot take place. Enough with  this ''once in a lifetime'' nonsense.

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Actually, there is no reason there would be another one.

 

May I refer you to the title of this thread?

Nonetheless, there is no legal reason a referendum cannot take place. Enough with  this ''once in a lifetime'' nonsense.

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Please link me to the relevant law or constitutional clause that states there must be another referendum.

Who said there was...

[JonnyF]

12 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Yeah I noticed that as well.

I'm not sure he's even self-aware enough to see the complete irony in his post.

Dear oh dear ????

 

Have you still not realized it's deliberate - to highlight the double standard of Scottish nationalists demanding exactly what they opposed so vehemently during Brexit? SMH. ????

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I don't recall saying it was a law.

 

I said it was an agreement by all parties. We took them for their word. Fool me once and all that...

 

If you are looking for court rulings, may I suggest you re-read the title of this thread?

If we are talking about statements made, Gordon Brown, on behalf of the No parties, stated that if we rejected independence there would be an immediate transfer of powers and that the UK would move as close to federalism as possible. That's just one of the many broken promises made. 

Cameron pleaded, "don't leave us, lead us". 

So if the UK government follow through with their promises,  maybe we Scots can consider the 'once in a generation' thing too.

 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

You might want to check out the EU rules on debt.

 

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/independent-scotland-could-face-181-26276527

 

Scotland doesn't have any debt.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

What makes you think they could manage the debt effectively having just walked away from their biggest trading partner and all of the trade deals it had as part of the UK? Their economy would be in tatters.

 

Unicorn stuff.

 

Anyway, why would they want to join the EU if they want to be Independent? Pretty much the definition of an Oxymoron.

You never answered my questions on this yesterday - do you think English companies would willingly stop trading with Scotland? Where will you get your energy from? But the end of the decade you are going to have a fresh water deficit. How will you deal with that?

Your hubris is nothing more than hot air. Practicalities on both sides will see compromise and cooperation.

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Scotland doesn't have any debt.

It would if it left the UK.

 

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/independent-scotland-could-face-181-26276527

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scottish-independence-going-it-alone-will-come-with-180bn-debt-p9j2c03zt#:~:text=Russia-Ukraine war-,Scottish independence%3A Going it alone 'will,come with £180bn debt'&text=An independent Scotland could start,adviser to the Scottish government.

 

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

You never answered my questions on this yesterday - do you think English companies would willingly stop trading with Scotland? Where will you get your energy from? But the end of the decade you are going to have a fresh water deficit. How will you deal with that?

Your hubris is nothing more than hot air. Practicalities on both sides will see compromise and cooperation.

Of course we wouldn't stop trading 100%. But there would be trade barriers, not only with the UK but with all the countries who currently have trade deals with the UK.

 

Hardly an environment in which to reduce debt.

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Of course we wouldn't stop trading 100%. But there would be trade barriers, not only with the UK but with all the countries who currently have trade deals with the UK.

 

Hardly an environment in which to reduce debt.

Regarding the debt, I would expect to see a full and forensic breakdown of how it was accrued. Currently we only have the Tories' word for its value - is there a less honest crowd in politics? I don't think so.

 

As for trade agreements, I imagine that from the day of the vote to the day of legal separation there will be time for an independent Scotland to develop its own trade deals.

 

A lot of work is already ongoing in terms of international relations, and Scotland has an Incredible amount of goodwill around the world at a very high level. I believe that we will be able to negotiate fair and reasonable trade agreements such that they can be implemented from day 1.

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

A lot of work is already ongoing in terms of international relations, and Scotland has an Incredible amount of goodwill around the world at a very high level. I believe that we will be able to negotiate fair and reasonable trade agreements such that they can be implemented from day 1.

 

Oven ready deals ?