8.1 million Thais are poor, 4.4 million below poverty line – NESDC

[thailand49]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

Well he must have done a lot right for them as he won his first term at a free election by the Thai people and at the next free election he did it again and won an overall majority.

 

How was he removed from power,

 

By a coup, naturally.

 

How was his sister removed from power when she was on track to win a second election?

 

By a coup, naturally, once again.

 

Thai politics view T-49?

 

He did play his cards right he follow the script and that was going up north paying 500-600 baht for the votes, promising Health care, then best of all loaded up with supportive MP on his side, script followed by his sister with his backing again paying for those votes up north where the mass population laid promising tablets for the kids and minimum wage of 300 baht.

 

Where he went wrong when he got so popular as you noted in his election his head got large so large he thought he was the the man K?  He so no respect because of that you got the coup. When his sister got into office once order of business was to go to smooth things out so her brother could return. All he had to do was get down and kiss the man feet show his respect and he would have been back? 

 

Once the coup took place if you remember it was years before they had another election, they made sure to set up that constitution so it favor the Chan O puppet so he couldn't loose. How funny if Thailand was so democratic why on earth did the new Constitution have to be taken and be approved by the big house isn't there another place it supposed to go?

 

If they want to fix the poor situation they need to fix the government education system every expert in Education outside have stated the problem and those within who not afraid to speak but not going to happen in my lifetime. The current system is to keep them poor and whoever wins the battle to be in control while in control they get rich if not richer.????????

 

 

[metisdead]

Off topic posts about poverty levels in the USA have been removed.

[BangkokReady]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

Well he must have done a lot right for them as he won his first term at a free election by the Thai people and at the next free election he did it again and won an overall majority.

 

How was his sister removed from power when she was on track to win a second election?

That doesn't prove that they care, nor that they were really doing something "right".  It just means they did enough to make them vote for them.

 

It is easy enough for a politician to do something to make a group of voters temporarily "like" them, while doing something that will harm them in the long-term.

 

In order to buy votes and enrich themselves, the money had to come from somewhere, and it would likely run out eventually.

[billd766]

3 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

That doesn't prove that they care, nor that they were really doing something "right".  It just means they did enough to make them vote for them.

 

It is easy enough for a politician to do something to make a group of voters temporarily "like" them, while doing something that will harm them in the long-term.

 

In order to buy votes and enrich themselves, the money had to come from somewhere, and it would likely run out eventually.

Well IMHO, they cared a lot more than most other politicians before or since, and certainly more that any coup government.

[trainman34014]

9 hours ago, pegman said:

There're not saying but by my standard and having traveled to most areas I'd peg the poor at >60%

Agreed; in the 16 years i've lived here i've travelled widely and Poverty is just about everywhere in the Country.  In that 16 years the 'Middle Class' seems to have grown; mainly Government Civil Servants with better wages and Pensions to follow but so many of the Poor seem to be no better off at all and the current 'Government' (Bully Boy Thieves) have done nothing to help of any real consequence.   The Banks and Lending Institutions are reckless and just make matters worse.

 

A change of Government may make things somewhat better but judging by past History that may be a forlorn hope !

[puck2]

8 hours ago, billd766 said:

Well he must have done a lot right for them as he won his first term at a free election by the Thai people and at the next free election he did it again and won an overall majority.

 

How was he removed from power,

 

By a coup, naturally.

 

How was his sister removed from power when she was on track to win a second election?

 

By a coup, naturally, once again.

And ....  cup makers are not punished in Thailand, but if you pick up mushrooms in special areas, that's a crime.

Edited December 20, 2022 by puck2

[mommysboy]

And the rest!

[Harsh Jones]

On 12/19/2022 at 4:36 AM, ThailandRyan said:

So what happened to those that did not get any of the stimulus money as they had no bank accounts or were not working in a job that allowed the stimulus? were they just not counted?

"Stimulus" money is the whole problem. All it was is inflation for the poor, and more leverage for the rich.

[nigelforbes]

Some basics first when discussing stimulus payments and rich and poor.

 

The population is 70 million.

 

The workforce is 39 million.

 

Unemployed, very young, very old, unable to work because of health is 31 million.

 

Only 9.6 million people are registered in the tax system.

 

Of the 9.6 million, 3.3 million earned 25k Baht per month or more, the threshold for paying tax, THE REMAINDER EARNED LESS THAN THE THRESHOLD.

(google Revenue plan intends to add 500,000 news)

 

600,000 business are registered for tax, only 450,000 filed tax returns.

 

The country's budget (3.2 trill. Baht) relies on tax income from VAT (900 billion Baht), 3.3 million people or 5% of the population (377 billion Baht), and tax revenue from business (570 billion baht).......plus various lesser categories such as fuel tax, liquor, tobacco etc.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1126300/thailand-government-revenue-from-taxes-by-type/

 

The key statistic for me is that only 3.3 million people pay income tax, perhaps think about then when talking about stimulus payments and the so called stingy government.

 

The other stat. that jumps out is the number of people not registered for tax, even if every business in the country was owned by a Thai, that still leaves 5.7 million people in the workforce who refuse to register for and pay tax.

Edited December 20, 2022 by nigelforbes
add budget number

[ikke1959]

But Prayuth is helping the people with  tax reductions if they spend 40.000 K for New Year... He better could implement a decent registration system, there is a lot of poverty in Thailand and I strongly believe this is only the tip of an iceberg. Nobody knows who lives where and what do do or earn.... Start with a proper registration

[nigelforbes]

4 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

But Prayuth is helping the people with  tax reductions if they spend 40.000 K for New Year... He better could implement a decent registration system, there is a lot of poverty in Thailand and I strongly believe this is only the tip of an iceberg. Nobody knows who lives where and what do do or earn.... Start with a proper registration

What sort of registration system did you have in mind, a voluntary, sign up here and tell us how much money you make sort of thing?

 

Just to bear in mind, there are already several registration systems in place, including the tax register and the social security register.

 

The problem here is that hardly anyone wants to pay tax and social security but almost everyone wants a handout from tax payers funds.

[ikke1959]

1 hour ago, nigelforbes said:

What sort of registration system did you have in mind, a voluntary, sign up here and tell us how much money you make sort of thing?

 

Just to bear in mind, there are already several registration systems in place, including the tax register and the social security register.

 

The problem here is that hardly anyone wants to pay tax and social security but almost everyone wants a handout from tax payers funds.

Everybody register at their amphoe. Not as now that people are registered in a blue book of family but live somewhere else. Than everybody has to fill in a taxform, so that is known who earns what and has what assets..How difficult could it be? After 5 years if you don't earn enough for taxpayment don't need to fill in every year a taxform but maybe every 5 years.. Easy to check who is poor or earn a bit and need any kind of financial help and also easy to control corruption and drugstrafficking. Now it is chaos, as you said, maybe a lot of people have to pay taxes, but don't because there is no control. Nobody knows. But look around you how many people ( young people) drive luxury cars, mo and expensive motorcycles.. Where does the money come from? How can they afford it?..It seems that that a lot of people earn more but don't pay tax as nobody has any idea what or how they can do it. 

[nigelforbes]

Just now, ikke1959 said:

Everybody register at their amphoe. Not as now that people are registered in a blue book of family but live somewhere else. Than everybody has to fill in a taxform, so that is known who earns what and has what assets..How difficult could it be? After 5 years if you don't earn enough for taxpayment don't need to fill in every year a taxform but maybe every 5 years.. Easy to check who is poor or earn a bit and need any kind of financial help and also easy to control corruption and drugstrafficking. Now it is chaos, as you said, maybe a lot of people have to pay taxes, but don't because there is no control. Nobody knows. But look around you how many people ( young people) drive luxury cars, mo and expensive motorcycles.. Where does the money come from? How can they afford it?..It seems that that a lot of people earn more but don't pay tax as nobody has any idea what or how they can do it. 

Since we've already established that the majority of people work cash in hand and aren't registered for tax, what makes you think they will be honest about declaring assets and income on your new form?

[ikke1959]

5 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Since we've already established that the majority of people work cash in hand and aren't registered for tax, what makes you think they will be honest about declaring assets and income on your new form?

honest to the tax department?? in which country are people honest if it is about tax/?? And IMO the cash payments should be banned.. we live in a digital era. Stop with daily payment, but monthly salaries on bankaccounts. Changes must be made 

Edited December 21, 2022 by ikke1959

[nigelforbes]

2 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

honest to the tax department?? in which country are people honest if it is about tax/?? And IMO the cash payments should be banned.. we live in a digital era. Stop with daily payment, but monthly salaries on bankaccounts. Changes must be made 

What monthly salaries are you talking, who, where, they only exist for 5% of the population! Cash payments are made because so many people don't even have bank accounts, have you forgotten where you are!!

[ikke1959]

Just now, nigelforbes said:

What monthly salaries are you talking, who, where, they only exist for 5% of the population! Cash payments are made because so many people don't even have bank accounts, have you forgotten where you are!!

I know too but they are talking about 600 THB a day .. but with so many holidays no work is no money. Change to 600 THB a day for 6 days work a week max and monthly payment and if there are holidays at least the people are being paid.... as I said change things.. 

[nigelforbes]

1 hour ago, ikke1959 said:

I know too but they are talking about 600 THB a day .. but with so many holidays no work is no money. Change to 600 THB a day for 6 days work a week max and monthly payment and if there are holidays at least the people are being paid.... as I said change things.. 

Do you have any idea what that would to inflation, prices, competitiveness of Thai industry and exports. An increase is one thing, a near doubling of minimum wage is something else entirely. Anyway, I haven't come across anyone who works for that sort of wage in years

 

[ikke1959]

1 minute ago, nigelforbes said:

Do you have any idea what that would to inflation, prices, competitiveness of Thai industry and exports. An increase is one thing, a near doubling of minimum wage is something else entirely. Anyway, I haven't come across anyone who works for that sort of wage in years

 

26 days working for 600 THB makes a monthly salary of 15.600 THB. Not so much I think nowadays..Somebody working in a icecube factory makes 12.000 THB a month, so not so much increase, yes indeed 30%, but what would it do tothe economy of people have more to spend.? 8 million people who can spend 30% more is a lot of money for the economy and of course the greedy industry will rise the prices...

[nigelforbes]

35 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

26 days working for 600 THB makes a monthly salary of 15.600 THB. Not so much I think nowadays..Somebody working in a icecube factory makes 12.000 THB a month, so not so much increase, yes indeed 30%, but what would it do tothe economy of people have more to spend.? 8 million people who can spend 30% more is a lot of money for the economy and of course the greedy industry will rise the prices...

You don't understand inflation 

[ikke1959]

24 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

You don't understand inflation 

no i don't think so.... I studied economics.... but who cares...

 

[Deli]

And how many companies cannot fill their vacancies because Thai people do not want to take the job ?

[Neeranam]

To put things in perspective.

 

40 million 'poor' in the USA with 500,000 homeless. Very few homeless here. 

 

When visiting the UK, my Thai wife was shocked to see all the homeless people.

 

[nigelforbes]

1 hour ago, ikke1959 said:

no i don't think so.... I studied economics.... but who cares...

 

Well, you need to go take a refresher course because no sane economist is ever going to advocate giving 30% wage increases to over 50% of the workforce, it would decimate the economy! Supply side inflation of 30% is not tenable in any economy, it would instantly erase profitability of most Thai businesses, increase consumer prices by a similar amount and create mass unemployment that the state would have to subsidize.

Edited December 21, 2022 by nigelforbes

[ikke1959]

39 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Well, you need to go take a refresher course because no sane economist is ever going to advocate giving 30% wage increases to over 50% of the workforce, it would decimate the economy! Supply side inflation of 30% is not tenable in any economy, it would instantly erase profitability of most Thai businesses, increase consumer prices by a similar amount and create mass unemployment that the state would have to subsidize.

The economy is better with a population that is poor with no social security... I agree....Better focus on the rich and more household debts.. that will do the economy much better.... Until the people realize that it is not fair as it happened already in 1789 in France....After that things are changed dramatically.. Much better.... There is much more than only salaries needed for inflation..  

[nigelforbes]

1 hour ago, ikke1959 said:

The economy is better with a population that is poor with no social security... I agree....Better focus on the rich and more household debts.. that will do the economy much better.... Until the people realize that it is not fair as it happened already in 1789 in France....After that things are changed dramatically.. Much better.... There is much more than only salaries needed for inflation..  

This is not a case of 30% or 0%, other lower, economically less damaging numbers exist that are a decent compromise, 5% and 10% spring to mind! But to be clear, this is not a matter of choosing a number that suits your personal idea of how much poorer people should earn, just because you have lived in economies where the standard of living is much higher and the population on average earns more. Plus Thailand is not a socialist's economy like so many in the West, including France which has significant social protection and elaborate social programs. One of the reasons why Thailand has been so successful in dragging such a large portion of its population out of poverty is because it hasn't had to finance such things. If you could go back and see Thailand as it was only 25 years ago and compare it to what exists today, you can't begin to imagine the difference.

[ikke1959]

3 hours ago, nigelforbes said:

This is not a case of 30% or 0%, other lower, economically less damaging numbers exist that are a decent compromise, 5% and 10% spring to mind! But to be clear, this is not a matter of choosing a number that suits your personal idea of how much poorer people should earn, just because you have lived in economies where the standard of living is much higher and the population on average earns more. Plus Thailand is not a socialist's economy like so many in the West, including France which has significant social protection and elaborate social programs. One of the reasons why Thailand has been so successful in dragging such a large portion of its population out of poverty is because it hasn't had to finance such things. If you could go back and see Thailand as it was only 25 years ago and compare it to what exists today, you can't begin to imagine the difference.

families live together sometimes in things that you can't call a house... So they can survive if they put all the money together.. But it is not for me, but ne fair a minimum of 350 THB a day for long working hours is much too less nowadays, as prices are rising already.. even without salary increases in Thailand to 600 THB. Of course I can't compare Europe with Thailand, but as we can read many times, more debts, more people poor and 4 million people living under the poverty is very shameful, as 5% of of the Thai people have much too much and that is not because they work so hard. Anyway 1789 of France will come to Thailand sooner or later believe me.. I live in Thailand for more than 17 years now and it is indeed not the same anymore, but it has gone down... talk to Thai people and they agree

Edited December 21, 2022 by ikke1959

[Harsh Jones]

23 hours ago, nigelforbes said:

Some basics first when discussing stimulus payments and rich and poor.

 

Do you believe in Keynesian stimulus ? Or Weimar stimulus as I call it 

[nigelforbes]

19 minutes ago, Harsh Jones said:

Do you believe in Keynesian stimulus ? Or Weimar stimulus as I call it 

I'm not going to discuss the rights and wrongs of stimulus and the options. I just wanted to make some posters aware of the framework and context within which they were making comments that were coming out of places where the sun don't shine!

[nigelforbes]

11 hours ago, ikke1959 said:

families live together sometimes in things that you can't call a house... So they can survive if they put all the money together.. But it is not for me, but ne fair a minimum of 350 THB a day for long working hours is much too less nowadays, as prices are rising already.. even without salary increases in Thailand to 600 THB. Of course I can't compare Europe with Thailand, but as we can read many times, more debts, more people poor and 4 million people living under the poverty is very shameful, as 5% of of the Thai people have much too much and that is not because they work so hard. Anyway 1789 of France will come to Thailand sooner or later believe me.. I live in Thailand for more than 17 years now and it is indeed not the same anymore, but it has gone down... talk to Thai people and they agree

There are many problems but one of the biggest my friend is this:

 

The population is 70 million, the workforce is 39 million, unemployed, very young, very old, unable to work because of health is 31 million. Only 9.6 million people are registered in the tax system. Of the 9.6 million, 3.3 million earned 25k Baht per month or more, the threshold for paying tax. 

 

This means, only 12% of the population is registered for and pays tax, that's almost 75% of the workforce that isn't registered for tax and doesn't pay tax. Is this because they are all so poor or is it because they don't want to declare their income and pay tax? The answer, without any doubt whatsoever, is because everyone hides their income and refuses to pay tax. Is this because the 88% who don't pay tax are too poor? Noooo, just dishonest!

 

It's difficult to have a sensible discussion about poverty under these conditions when so few people pay into the tax system but everyone wants to take money out. Your complaint about the 5% who make too much money, they are the businesses who are supporting everyone else. If 1789 does repeat itself and those business owners are sent to Madame Guillotine's equivalent, the population will have it's work cut out, they are going to have work and pay tax otherwise who is going to support the country!

 

[ikke1959]

1 hour ago, nigelforbes said:

There are many problems but one of the biggest my friend is this:

 

The population is 70 million, the workforce is 39 million, unemployed, very young, very old, unable to work because of health is 31 million. Only 9.6 million people are registered in the tax system. Of the 9.6 million, 3.3 million earned 25k Baht per month or more, the threshold for paying tax. 

 

This means, only 12% of the population is registered for and pays tax, that's almost 75% of the workforce that isn't registered for tax and doesn't pay tax. Is this because they are all so poor or is it because they don't want to declare their income and pay tax? The answer, without any doubt whatsoever, is because everyone hides their income and refuses to pay tax. Is this because the 88% who don't pay tax are too poor? Noooo, just dishonest!

 

It's difficult to have a sensible discussion about poverty under these conditions when so few people pay into the tax system but everyone wants to take money out. Your complaint about the 5% who make too much money, they are the businesses who are supporting everyone else. If 1789 does repeat itself and those business owners are sent to Madame Guillotine's equivalent, the population will have it's work cut out, they are going to have work and pay tax otherwise who is going to support the country!

 

I totally agree with you and than we come back to my first post.. Register everybody where they live and let everybody fill in a tax form for at least 5 year, so that the Government knows who is working, what they earn and their assets are...Income is everything even cash payments, although less controlable, but if someone claims to earn 15k a month, we all know that he can't drive a Mercedes and live in million worth house.. Than you have a real picture of the population, but now we all know that some families are earning a lot of money and a other have to work 12 hrs a day for very minimum. Put together that Thai people don't want to work, as we can read and see that many workers from Laos, Cambodia, and Myanmar come to work here. It is impossible that 75% of a population don't pay tax but can live happily, than there is something very wrong. Start with a good registration first and with the tax department it is possible to take measures againt, drugs, corruption and moneylaundering. There will be more people who have to pay taxes and with a good Government the country can use it to improve .... But we can't solve the problems here in this country, as foreigners have no say...indeed I know that it  is impossible to have a good idea who is poor or not so poor and very rich.  But the sudents are aware that things have to change, and if the students come in the street there will be changes coming.