What is an agnostic in 12-step recovery?

[Andy F]

New blog: What does it mean to be an atheist, agnostic. or freethinker in 12-step recovery?

 

https://aaforagnostics.com/blog/what-is-an-agnostic/

 

[KhunLA]

Is there a question in there ?  Or do you want some thoughts on the blog author's question at the end ?  There is a never ending thread on AN 'do you believe in GOD'.

 

Those questions in the blog are;

If you identify as an atheist, agnostic or freethinker, what is your position on the God issue?

... Freethinking Atheist ... by definition don't believe, and IMHO, science has countered most everything in the (Christian) Bible.  Don't ask me for links or proof, opinion from my readings and is MHO from those readings.

 

Are you able to use a conception of a higher power that is neither unseen nor divine?

... Athiest, so obvious answer is no, since non believer.

 

What are your own ideas about a higher power?

... simply doesn't exist, on any known level.

 

Is it keeping you sober? Is it helping you to enjoy and not endure your sobriety?

... NO, I keep me sober, by staying happy.  Sip when I want to and realize my limitations from past experiences.  Some people actually learn from the mistakes.  Though I never had a problem with alcohol/drugs.  Treated it like a hobby, not a lifestyle.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by KhunLA

[Neeranam]

On 1/29/2023 at 8:48 AM, KhunLA said:

What are your own ideas about a higher power?

... simply doesn't exist, on any known level.

 

Is it keeping you sober? Is it helping you to enjoy and not endure your sobriety?

... NO, I keep me sober, by staying happy.  Sip when I want to and realize my limitations from past experiences.  Some people actually learn from the mistakes.  Though I never had a problem with alcohol/drugs.  Treated it like a hobby, not a lifestyle.

If you're bored, I suggest you look at aa Thailand. Org and find out where the nearest meeting is. When there, tell all the alcoholics you don't have a problem with alcohol and can stay sober by staying happy. You might find out something about alcoholism, if they don't kick you out. 

[Andy F]

18 hours ago, Neeranam said:

If you're bored, I suggest you look at aa Thailand. Org and find out where the nearest meeting is. When there, tell all the alcoholics you don't have a problem with alcohol and can stay sober by staying happy. You might find out something about alcoholism, if they don't kick you out. 

Well said Neeranam! ????????????

[likerdup1]

This question doesn't make sense according to the AA text. One is not "IN" 12 step recovery unless they have DONE the steps. AA says one can be RECOVERED from alcoholism through doing the steps. According to the Big Book and 12 and 12 texts in order to do the second step a person would need to suspend their agnostic or atheist ideas and just become even willing to believe a Higher Power could help them. If one cannot even get past being even willing to believe, one cannot do the second step and thus NOT GET recovery that can be achieved through doing the steps.

 

If an alcoholic is desperate enough to remain sober and open to suspend their old agnostic or atheist ideas and become even willing to believe a Higher Power could give them recovery they can then move on and do the remaining steps.

 

I was atheist before i took the steps. I was desperate. I was even willing to believe a Higher Power could help me. I remained skeptical but did the 3rd step and to demonstrate I made the decision did the rest of the steps. Around step 7 I started having a spiritual experience. I started experiencing a Higher Power personal to me.

I have been recovered ever since and practice steps 10, 11 and 12 regularly for the last 29 years.

 

One can be "IN" the meetings of the fellowship. One cannot be "IN" the program. One either DOES or doesn't do the 12 step program.

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by likerdup1

[Andy F]

21 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

This question doesn't make sense according to the AA text. One is not "IN" 12 step recovery unless they have DONE the steps. AA says one can be RECOVERED from alcoholism through doing the steps. According to the Big Book and 12 and 12 texts in order to do the second step a person would need to suspend their agnostic or atheist ideas and just become even willing to believe a Higher Power could help them. If one cannot even get past being even willing to believe, one cannot do the second step and thus NOT GET recovery that can be achieved through doing the steps.

 

If an alcoholic is desperate enough to remain sober and open to suspend their old agnostic or atheist ideas and become even willing to believe a Higher Power could give them recovery they can then move on and do the remaining steps.

 

I was atheist before i took the steps. I was desperate. I was even willing to believe a Higher Power could help me. I remained skeptical but did the 3rd step and to demonstrate I made the decision did the rest of the steps. Around step 7 I started having a spiritual experience. I started experiencing a Higher Power personal to me.

I have been recovered ever since and practice steps 10, 11 and 12 regularly for the last 29 years.

 

One can be "IN" the meetings of the fellowship. One cannot be "IN" the program. One either DOES or doesn't do the 12 step program.

 

My words don't make sense to you because you see only your own personal interpretation of the Big Book and the 12 steps. This indicates a closed mind. My interpretation of the Big  Book makes perfect sense to me and has led me to a "non-God-centered" spiritual awakening. Your somewhat rigid and literal interpretation of the Big Book is not helpful to many alcoholics that come to AA. Many end up leaving AA because of the sometimes heavy emphasis on the God word. I had a recent conversation with the General Service Office of AA. They confirmed that the AA program is completely open to personal Interpretation. You are at liberty to interpret the Big Book in any way that works for you. Could you please kindly refrain from your somewhat self centered insistence that your interpretation of the AA program is the only interpretation. That kind of mindset in AA turns alcoholics away from AA because they see it as some kind of cult or quasi religion. How would you feel if I told you that your spiritual awakening in AA is invalid? Ever heard the AA slogan "live and let live" I'm 25 years sober in AA and am enjoying a happy and contented sobriety. To say that I can be a real alcoholic because I don't believe in God is utter fundamentalist nonsense. I tell vulnerable newcomers to steer clear of hard core "Big Book Thumpers" like you. You people are dangerous in Alcoholics Anonymous. Just for the record, I was a homeless and hopeless street drunk who recreated my life in Alcoholics Anonymous. Please enough of the preaching BS!

 

[Andy F]

On 2/5/2023 at 9:17 AM, Andy F said:

Well said Neeranam! ????????????

My word,........Do I hear some closed minded, rigid, fundamentalist BS on this platform. Read about James Burwell, an early member of AA who was also an atheist. Thanks to him, thousands if not millions of alcoholics, who despite the God word, have found a solution  in Alcoholics Anonymous 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Andy F

[Andy F]

On 2/5/2023 at 9:17 AM, Andy F said:

Well said Neeranam! ????????????

Have you ever heard of tradition 3 mate. Clearly you are unaware, that "The only requirement for AA membership, is a desire to stop drinking" That includes atheists, agnostics and freethinkers that come to AA with a desire to stop drinking! Why we even welcome psychopaths and Narcissists. ❤️

[likerdup1]

The mistake of many uninformed AA's is to think that the Big Book and Twelve and Twelve can be "interpreted". Why would Bill W. write a book with the goal of saving peoples lives from alcoholism that would need interpretation? It's not written in the Devinci code. It's written in English. There are many people in the fellowship of AA who never take time to actually study the book closely. I was one of those people at 7 years a dry drunk in AA.

 

Once carefully studied one finds the literature is not meant to be interpreted. It's meant as a precise guide concerning how to apply the practical 12 step program of action in ones life to recover from alcoholism. Once someone really studies the AA book and Twelve and Twelve with a qualified and reputable sponsor (or some very famous Big Book teachers like Joe and Charlie or Bob D and Scott L) they find that in several parts of the first 164 that it states just how "precise" Bill and the first 100 alcoholics have attempted to make the text. Here are a couple of excerpts.

 

Big Book Page 28/29:

In the following chapter, there appears an explanation of alcoholism, as we understand it, then a chapter addressed to the agnostic. Many who once were in this class are now among our members. Surprisingly enough, we find such convictions no great obstacle to a spiritual experience.

Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-three personal experiences.

 

Forward to the first edition:

We of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have re-
covered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book.

 

So  you see my friend. I don't have a personal interpretation. I have simply carefully studied it. In fact all my AA friends who are literature enthusiasts and who consider themselves students of the Big Book and Twelve all agree with what it says. I attend literature study groups and we all find together exactly what the literature states. There is very little room for interpretation. Interpretation to suit ones own personal agenda can actually kill real alcoholics.

 

By the way. I am not saying agnostics or atheists should be excluded from meetings of the fellowship of AA. All are welcome. This has been a long time policy of AA as outlined in the traditions. I follow the traditions closely and never seek to exclude anyone from the fellowship. Entry into the fellowship is cheap. Only a desire to stop drinking. BUT entry into the Fellowship of the Spirit has a high price - taking ALL the Twelve Steps as designed and outlined in AA literature.

 

The true test of ones ultimate effectiveness in AA is how many people that have actually helped to become recovered.

To do that in AA one needs to sponsor by showing and guiding others through the entire 12 step program thus helping them recover from alcoholism.

 

The twelfth step is the highest calling anyone can achieve doing the program of AA. I've been a sponsor for about 22 years of my 29 years sober. To recover the AA way one needs to help others one on one through the 12 step program outlined in the AA Big Book and Twelve and Twelve Book.

 

I am currently helping a man who consided himself an atheist through the 12 steps. He is desperate and could not stop drinking for more than 3 days. He is sober 6 weeks now and I'm working with him on his 8th step list. He has been telling me he is feeling a new power flow in. A Power Greater than himself. He was even only willing to believe a Higher Power could help him to take step 2. Now he is experiencing this Power personal to him. It is a true joy to be  a part of.

 

It has been a great satisfaction of mine to help a wreck of a man back on his feet to recover and enjoy a happy and useful life through practice of the AA program. This I have experienced personally many times by being a sponsor.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by likerdup1

[KhunLA]

What y'all are saying is, if not a Christian, or will be after a few steps, then you can't quit being an alky using the 12 steps.

 

What if you were a Christian (when ignorant) and now realize it's a farce, how can you do the 12 steps, as no way will believe in a higher power if you already know you were mistaken before.

[likerdup1]

42 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

What y'all are saying is, if not a Christian, or will be after a few steps, then you can't quit being an alky using the 12 steps.

 

What if you were a Christian (when ignorant) and now realize it's a farce, how can you do the 12 steps, as no way will believe in a higher power if you already know you were mistaken before.

Are you an alcoholic interested in recovery from alcoholism? If so I would urge you to attend some meetings of AA. Visit the AA website http://aa.org also. For online meetings visit https://aa-intergroup.org.

[KhunLA]

58 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

Are you an alcoholic interested in recovery from alcoholism? If so I would urge you to attend some meetings of AA. Visit the AA website http://aa.org also. For online meetings visit https://aa-intergroup.org.

Alcohol has never been a problem for me.   Only the dumb krap I did while using, days past.   Don't bounce like I used to, so try not to do stupid sh!t any more,   A work in progress ????

 

I drink alcohol, because I enjoy it, not because my body needs it, physically or mentally.

Edited February 27, 2023 by KhunLA

[Sheryl]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

What y'all are saying is, if not a Christian, or will be after a few steps, then you can't quit being an alky using the 12 steps.

 

What if you were a Christian (when ignorant) and now realize it's a farce, how can you do the 12 steps, as no way will believe in a higher power if you already know you were mistaken before.

They have said nothing of the sort.

 

There is not the slightest need to be a Christian. Plenty of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and people with no organized religion have done 12 step programs successfully.

 

There is however a need to believe in a Higher Power of some sort. Which can be nature or any number of other things.  It does nto have to be a Supreme Being  as generally understood in the Judeo-Christian religions.

 

Plenty of Thai Buddhists in AA. They do not become Christians. For most Buddhists, the Dhamma (universal law/nature) is a higher power.

[KhunLA]

15 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

They have said nothing of the sort.

 

There is not the slightest need to be a Christian. Plenty of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and people with no organized religion have done 12 step programs successfully.

 

There is however a need to believe in a Higher Power of some sort. Which can be nature or any number of other things.  It does nto have to be a Supreme Being  as generally understood in the Judeo-Christian religions.

 

Plenty of Thai Buddhists in AA. They do not become Christians. For most Buddhists, the Dhamma (universal law/nature) is a higher power.

Good thing I'm not an alky or need a higher power, as don't believe it exists.  

 

Don't think anyone needs a higher power, to do anything or quit doing something harmful.   One is simply a 'drive' to do it, and concerning the latter, just common sense.   If something is a negative in your life, stop doing it.

[likerdup1]

On 2/27/2023 at 1:06 AM, KhunLA said:

 One is simply a 'drive' to do it, and concerning the latter, just common sense.   If something is a negative in your life, stop doing it.

Excuse me but don't you think if it was just a matter of "stop doing it" that we would have tried that already?

 

The reason I know I am alcoholic is that at some point (in my late 20's for me)

  I COULD NOT

1 ) Control the amount I would drink ONCE I started drinking

2) Stop permanently even though I honestly wanted to.

 

Here is an excerpt from the AA Big Book. The entitled "Alcoholics Anonymous" that very succinctly explains in a couple sentences what they consider alcoholism to be.

 

Page 45 Chapter 4 "We Agnostics"

If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.

 

 

I tried to quit using your "just stop doing it" idea for 2 1/2 years. I could not stay sober for longer that about 2 months on my own. Will power did not work. Self discipline did not work. This is alcoholism.

 

People who are not alcoholic have very little idea what it's like to honestly want to stop but not be able to no matter how great the wish or necessity.

 

[KhunLA]

15 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

Excuse me but don't you think if it was just a matter of "stop doing it" that we would have tried that already?

 

The reason I know I am alcoholic is that at some point (in my late 20's for me)

  I COULD NOT

1 ) Control the amount I would drink ONCE I started drinking

2) Stop permanently even though I honestly wanted to.

 

Here is an excerpt from the AA Big Book. The entitled "Alcoholics Anonymous" that very succinctly explains in a couple sentences what they consider alcoholism to be.

 

Page 45 Chapter 4 "We Agnostics"

If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.

 

 

I tried to quit using your "just stop doing it" idea for 2 1/2 years. I could not stay sober for longer that about 2 months on my own. Will power did not work. Self discipline did not work. This is alcoholism.

 

People who are not alcoholic have very little idea what it's like to honestly want to stop but not be able to no matter how great the wish or necessity.

 

I'm sure there's plenty of folks that quit drinking & smoking, that didn't believe in a higher power.   Along with so many other things.  They just didn't go to meetings or do the 12 stepper.

 

That some thought they had 'inspiration' from above, doesn't mean it's needed for all who decide to quit and take control of their bodies & mind. 

 

Issue I have, is AA seems to push, 'if you don't believe, you can't recover'.

 

"If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer."

Edited March 1, 2023 by KhunLA

[ding]

On 2/27/2023 at 3:44 PM, Sheryl said:

They have said nothing of the sort.

 

There is not the slightest need to be a Christian. Plenty of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and people with no organized religion have done 12 step programs successfully.

 

There is however a need to believe in a Higher Power of some sort. Which can be nature or any number of other things.  It does nto have to be a Supreme Being  as generally understood in the Judeo-Christian religions.

 

Plenty of Thai Buddhists in AA. They do not become Christians. For most Buddhists, the Dhamma (universal law/nature) is a higher power.

Bingo. There are 2 conference approved pamphlets that I ignored for decades but appreciate now;

https://www.aa.org/many-paths-spirituality

https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/assets/p-86_theGodWord.pdf

 

I personally know members sober over 40 years and active in AA who are atheist or agnostic.

No problem, they just made a decision to use the program or the fellowship as a power greater than themselves. 

That gets them out of the driver's seat - done!

 

*If someone is promoting their church or quoting religious text, they do not speak for AA.

This happened in US meeting in the early 90's and is happening a lot again.

Personally, I tend to speak up to inform or remind newcomers that AA is not a religious program.

[ding]

On 3/1/2023 at 7:21 AM, KhunLA said:

 

 

Issue I have, is AA seems to push, 'if you don't believe, you can't recover'.

 

I agree. It helps if I keep in mind that the Big Book was written by humans. Flawed humans, with only a few years of sobriety and no legacy of experience to draw on. Pg 449, now pg 417, on acceptance is one example of absolutism that was not necessary and not helpful to many.

"Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in God's world by mistake"

Man's inhumanity to man, and mutagenesis causing cancer in good people - are examples.

In my view, a loving god wouldn't do that. It's human free will and randomness imho.

 

For me, I don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I take what I need and leave the rest. I tell myself that that writer is free to think as he/she does and if it's too extreme and unreasonable, I let it roll.

 

The point is, for me, I couldn't stop drinking no matter what I did. When I got out of the driver's seat in AA, I did.

[Sheryl]

57 minutes ago, ding said:

I agree. It helps if I keep in mind that the Big Book was written by humans. Flawed humans, with only a few years of sobriety and no legacy of experience to draw on. Pg 449, now pg 417, on acceptance is one example of absolutism that was not necessary and not helpful to many.

"Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in God's world by mistake"

Man's inhumanity to man, and mutagenesis causing cancer in good people - are examples.

In my view, a loving god wouldn't do that. It's human free will and randomness imho.

 

For me, I don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I take what I need and leave the rest. I tell myself that that writer is free to think as he/she does and if it's too extreme and unreasonable, I let it roll.

 

The point is, for me, I couldn't stop drinking no matter what I did. When I got out of the driver's seat in AA, I did.

"Take what you need/like and leave the rest" is in fact one of the program slogans, I think.

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, ding said:

 

I personally know members sober over 40 years and active in AA who are atheist or agnostic.

No problem, they just made a decision to use the program or the fellowship as a power greater than themselves. 

That gets them out of the driver's seat - done!

 

 

Exactly. The key thing about a high power is not what it is (which will be understood very  differently by different people - and by definition can't really be known in the intellectual sense) but what it is not. It is not self will.

 

An excessive  attempt to solve all problems through ego-centered self will (even when that is clearly not working) is typical of people with addiction issues. 

 

One has to do the leg work, of course, but a key part of all 12 step programs -- and one that works -- is learning to moderate excessive self will and accept help from  outside oneself , be it from other people, the group, the program, nature or whatever higher power one can accept.

 

It is a complete red herring -- and very counterproductive -- to get caught up in ideological  beliefs  about higher powers. People do this for various reasons. Some because they are unwilling to relax their pride/self will even an iota; some because they have had prior negative experiences with organized religions and mistakenly think this would be something of that sort; and some because they are just looking for excuses nto to try a 12 step program.

[Neeranam]

On 3/7/2023 at 11:22 AM, Sheryl said:

"Take what you need/like and leave the rest" is in fact one of the program slogans, I think.

Indeed, but not a very good one, IMHO.

If you are an alcoholic, half measures avail to nothing.

[Andy F]

50 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Indeed, but not a very good one, IMHO.

If you are an alcoholic, half measures avail to nothing.

"No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. We claim spiritual progress not perfection" - The half measures to which you are referring only applies to a 100% acceptance of step one. If we are willing to grow along spiritual lines (which doesn't necessarily mean believing in God), we are 100% on the program of Alcoholics Anonymous ????????????

[likerdup1]

On 2/28/2023 at 4:21 PM, KhunLA said:

 

Issue I have, is AA seems to push, 'if you don't believe, you can't recover'.

 

AA doesn't push anything on anyone. But, if one wants to become recovered from alcoholism the AA way, according to the instructions both in the AA Big Book and the 12 and 12 one has to become open minded to experiencing a spiritual awakening which in AA's own words from Appendix II of the Big Book amounts to "God Consciousness".

 

The word God is used as a convenience term throughout the AA texts and in no way suggests it has to be the deity of any organized religion or even a deity at all. The mistake of the OP I believe is he associates this term to much with conventional deities and believes he has a superior perspective of the Universe and everything in it. He likes to call himself and Agnostic AA member to set himself apart as superior and having a better way which needs to be explained in his book and blog.

 

This is not humility. True humility which is required for REAL alcoholics to recover the AA way would amount to laying aside agnostic and atheistic prejudices and becoming even willing to experience the Power of a Higher Power as they WILL UNDERSTAND IT by completing all Twelve steps.

So far I haven't seen anyone here quote any of the original AA text from the Big Book or Twelve and Twelve aside from the How it works stanza. I am quite confident the reason is nobody here has actually studied either the first 164 pages of the Big Book and studied all of the twelve step essays in the Twelve and Twelve.

 

Most people who consider themselves members of the AA fellowship rarely become dedicated students of the AA texts. They simply go to meetings, read a few things and pickup information in a hand me down fashion and then believe their so called knowledge is accurate. That is why there is such a terrible recovery rate these days in AA. Very few people are actually doing the 12 steps as designed. Go to any meeting and take a survey of how many people have over 6 years sober. There are not many and it's because there is too much misinformation floating around in meetings of the fellowship by people who mean well but are simply uninformed and don't even know it.

 

Here I will quote something which has been vitally important in my effort to remain recovered and my efforts to continue to sponsor the many men I have helped to recover.

 

From the chapter "We Agnostics".

Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.

 

The step 2 Twelve and Twelve essay says this about using the AA group as a higher power. But it states it is only a way begin on the path of connection with a Higher Power.

 

Page 27 Twelve and Twelve.

You can, if you wish, make A.A. itself your ‘higher power.’ Here’s a very large group of people who have solved their alcohol problem. In this respect they are certainly a power greater than you, who have not even come close to a solution. Surely you can have faith in them. Even this mini-mum of faith will be enough. You will find many members who have crossed the threshold just this way. All of them will tell you that, once across, their faith broadened and deepened. Relieved of the alcohol obsession, their lives unaccountably transformed, they came to believe in a Higher Power, and most of them began to talk of God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by likerdup1

[ding]

8 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

 They simply go to meetings, read a few things and pickup information in a hand me down fashion and then believe their so called knowledge is accurate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

???? You just described me to a tee! It works for me. I'm 38 years sober, never went to treatment and never slipped. I have a good life and a great marriage. Think I'll keep stumbling along like this today too. Not sure I believe I have any considerable knowledge though, "so called" or otherwise. I just know how to not drink for a long time and have a serene fulfilling life.

 

I do admire the people deep into the literature, hat tip!

[likerdup1]

10 hours ago, ding said:

???? You just described me to a tee! It works for me. I'm 38 years sober, never went to treatment and never slipped. I have a good life and a great marriage. Think I'll keep stumbling along like this today too. Not sure I believe I have any considerable knowledge though, "so called" or otherwise. I just know how to not drink for a long time and have a serene fulfilling life.

 

I do admire the people deep into the literature, hat tip!

Glad you have your 38 years. I'll be 30 in a few days. What is it that you do to have not drank in a long time?

 

For myself and guys I sponsor who are real alcoholics as described in the Big Book, it is imperative to work all 12 steps using the directions found in the literature. Specifically the Big Book and Twelve and Twelve.

 

My home group, which is a dedicated literature study group, prides itself on our success rate with real alcoholics and has a number of qualified literature enthusiast sponsors who don't "just do what works for them" but actually practice and teach the AA 12 step program as designed and specifically laid out in the Big Book and Twelve and Twelve.

 

I did that "works for me" program for about 2.5 years and I relapsed about 10 times during that time. I was doing my own program rather than THE 12 step program of AA. I'd stay sober for a couple months and think, "gee, this is working for me!" and then relapse.

 

Half measures availed us nothing has been very true for me and other real alcoholics I know in AA.

Edited March 9, 2023 by likerdup1

[Woof999]

I picked the wrong month to give up popcorn.

[likerdup1]

Something I don't get and bothers me is that it seems to me that "agnostic sober AA members" seem to think the rest of us are delusional. That the experience of our AA founders and other sober AA members who have experienced the Power of a Higher Power are seeing things. That we are all hallucinating and our experience and connection with a Higher Power is not real. They "know better" about the universe and everything in it.

 

To me there is too much misinformation floating around in the meetings and it's not allowing true, real alcoholics to get the critical opportunity of recovery the original and simple AA way. The tragedy is that these real alcoholics are the guys most people just write off as "not getting it". Gee, he didn't "get it" and drank again and died. Poor so and so.

 

In reality.. nobody gave them information about the true program of AA in the first place. Because many AA members just rest on their laurels and think that what they do enough for them so it is enough for everybody else. This is the tragedy of the modern day AA fellowship and it's dismal recovery rate.

 

If you are a sober member of AA and haven't studied even the first 164 pages of the AA Big Book and the short 12 step essays in the Twelve and Twelve then I implore you to do so and start talking about the real AA program in meetings instead of your hand me down inaccurate fellowship speak information, much of which is not the AA program.

 

Go to youtube and search "Joe and Charlie" big book study. Or search for Bob D and Scott L big book study. These are my favorite big book and program teachers. They changed my life all for the good and more importantly made me effective at the single most important part of my spiritual life. Being knowledgeable and well equipped enough to help real alcoholics recover the AA way.

Edited March 9, 2023 by likerdup1

[likerdup1]

On 3/7/2023 at 11:13 PM, Andy F said:

 The half measures to which you are referring only applies to a 100% acceptance of step one. If we are willing to grow along spiritual lines (which doesn't necessarily mean believing in God), we are 100% on the program of Alcoholics Anonymous ????????????

This is not correct. Nowhere in the literature is the conclusion made that half measures in the How it Works chapter of the Big Book are referring only to doing the first step 100%.

 

Also someone can be willing to grow along spiritual lines to make a beginning but if they haven't started or completed all the steps they will most likely not get recovery the AA way.

 

To get recovery the AA way one must do all the steps as stated later on in the first part of Chapter Five. Someone can only be 100% on the program of recovery if they have done 100% of the 12 step program of recovery.

 

The half measures sentence in the first part of the chapter "How it Works" refers to the ENTIRE 12 step program. 

 

Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon. Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:

 

The steps are then listed. -- The 12 steps are the program.

The start of Chapter 5 first paragraph reads:

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.

( Meaning simply that thoroughly doing ALL the steps will almost guarantee recovery from alcoholism.)

 

Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program.

( This again is a reiteration of the fact that half measures or more plainly NOT WORKING ALL THE STEPS will not bring about recovery from alcoholism )

 

The steps are the program. The path they are referring is nothing more or less than the 12 step program of recovery.  It is written in plain English.

Edited March 10, 2023 by likerdup1

[Andy F]

You have a very rigid and fundamentalist understanding of the AA literature. Have you ever considered how many frightened and bewildered newcomers you are scaring away from AA with your kind of Big Book fundamentalism? ????  Let's be clear. Working all the steps, no matter how perfectly you work them, does not necessarily bring about a God awakening. If they bring about a spiritual awakening then that's good enough. ...... Or would you call that a half measure?? You keep saying "The AA way" Yes, your interpretation of the Big Book WAS the AA way but not anymore. Times have changed. "The AA way" these days is beautifully described in this AA conference approved pamphlet. This has now become "The AA way"

 

https://www.aa.org/god-word-agnostic-and-atheist-members-aa

 

In fellowship 

[likerdup1]

10 hours ago, Andy F said:

You have a very rigid and fundamentalist understanding of the AA literature. Have you ever considered how many frightened and bewildered newcomers you are scaring away from AA with your kind of Big Book fundamentalism? ????  Let's be clear. Working all the steps, no matter how perfectly you work them, does not necessarily bring about a God awakening. If they bring about a spiritual awakening then that's good enough. ...... Or would you call that a half measure?? You keep saying "The AA way" Yes, your interpretation of the Big Book WAS the AA way but not anymore. Times have changed. "The AA way" these days is beautifully described in this AA conference approved pamphlet. This has now become "The AA way"

 

https://www.aa.org/god-word-agnostic-and-atheist-members-aa

 

In fellowship 

 

How is it that you think I'm scaring away newcomers? Have you heard me share in a meeting? Have you witnessed me sponsoring newcomers? (which I do frequently with success). How many active sponsees do you have?

 

I follow the Big Book instructions about how to help newcomers in the chapter "Working with Others". Do you know what it says? It expressly says to NOT talk of God or press spirituality at all in the first meetings with new people. It also says to talk primarily about drinking experience and experience with alcoholism first.

 

Again with criticizing my "understanding" of the literature. My understanding of the literature lines up with the many literature enthusiasts I study it with. The Primary Purpose groups. The Connect the Dots group. The Reconciled Group. The list goes on. There are a growing number of people in AA latching onto the text book for our society called the Big Book. The first 164 pages of the Big Book (the program portion) has not been changed since it's first edition in 1939.

 

Frankly I highly doubt you have studied the literature thoroughly. For instance this business about the "half measures" only applying to the first step. This is nowhere in the literature.

 

All the literature enthusiasts I know have been humble enough to become teachable and have someone show them and help them understand the literature. I am a self taught computer programmer and even I needed to be shown.

 

Come back and tell me when you've actually taken a day or two to go over the program with Big Book or 12 step program teachers such as Joe and Charlie or Bob D or Scott L. Then we can have an intelligent chat about the AA program of recovery.

 

Let me point out. It appears you or a few other "Agnostic AA members" have invented new terminology. Specifically the terms you throw around like "Non God centered spiritual awakening"  "God Awakening"  This is one individual (or perhaps these so called AA secular groups) making up terms and twisting the English language to support their views.

 

"God awakening" Where is that term ever seen in any of the AA literature?

 

Where is the terminology "Non God-centered spiritual awakening" .. I'll bet this stuff was developed by these so called "secular AA" groups that come and go.

 

Since we are using the English language lets just start off with the definition of the most important word in the AA program.

 

SPRITUAL:

1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not material; supernatural.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Not concerned with material or worldly things.

 

So you see BY DEFINITION spirituality has to do with things that are not worldly. For instance Human beings are of this world. 

 

It's read at every meeting.

B) The probably no HUMAN power could have relieved our alcoholism.

 

By the way one pamphlet about the God word does not change the AA way of recovering from alcoholism. To change the AA way to recover they'd need to rewrite the first 164 pages of The Big Book and Twelve and Twelve.

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by likerdup1