Farang Agitators Of Trouble In Thailand

[junkofdavid2]

I've lived in another Southeast Asian country before coming to Thailand.

In that other country, it was common for the "natives" to be "anti-chinese" and "anti-rich".

To the natives of that country, they would use derogatory titles for their rich fellow citizens of chinese ancestry.

As an example, the natives of that country would NEVER elect a fellow citizen to be president or prime minister, just because he had Chinese ancestry... They also have an inner hatred against "richer people" (whether chinese or native).

However, I was surprised that in Thailand, this does not seem to be the case and they even elect Thai chinese to be their leaders. There also does not seem to be any "automatic" resentment against fellow Thais who are rich (no class-struggle).

IRONICALLY, it is only in ThaiVisa where I see so many farang whingers who like to be the ones to "blame it on the elite", or "blame it on the hi-so", or "blame it on the Thai chinese", etc., when the local Thais don't seem to brand their fellow Thais of chinese descent as being "different".

To them, the Thai chinese are simply "Thai", and even elect them to government.

Don't give that baloney that it's because the Thai chinese are rich and can bribe their way to elected posts. The philippine chinese and indonesian chinese and malaysian chinese have the money to bribe too! (And yes, they do it a lot.)

So, may I ask, why the bitterness among the Farangs about this when the native Thais don't seem to give a dam_n?

Is it because a certain group of farangs are upset that this particular group of Thais, the hi-so or the Thai-Chinese, don't "worship" the Farangs as "white gods" the same way the lower-classed Thais do?

Or, is it painful for a farang from the "wealthy west" to come to Asia thinking he's richer than everyone here, only to find out in the end that there are actually "real live Asians" who are much much richer than him?

Or maybe, some other reason?

Edited July 1, 2007 by junkofdavid2

[alaina]

Not sure why you don't think that Thais and Chinese Thais aren't viewed differently, perhaps it's more subtle than other SEA countries, but it most certainly exists. Thais made a systematic effort to assimilate the Chinese that migrated here by forcing them to take Thai surnames. The surnames had to be ones that sounded Thai but were not taken by other families here. Well, after a few hundred families, they started having to invent longer ones. This explains many 20+ letter last names and Thais that are not Chinese often look at the length of the surnames to see if somebody is of Chinese origin.

[ProThaiExpat]

In the five years I have been in Thailand, I never saw Thaksin's heritage mentioned in the BKK Post until after he was deposed. Then I saw mention of his Chinese heritage, the place of his mother's family's birth etc. and more than once.

It would be interesting to see demographic information on the ratio of Thai-Chai to full blooded Thais in the top one thousand richest Thai citizens. Would also like to see the same breakdown of high level government officials.

Long before I set foot in Thailand, I was appraised of the difference between a Thai-Chai and a Thai on the internet. I was told that "Thai-Chai have white skin, live in the city and make money in business while Thais are dark skined, live in the country-side and are farmers.

A generality for sure, but is there any truth in it?

[lannarebirth]

Thailands is a hierarchal society. If your richer or more lucky, or your dad was, well then you're deserving of respect. Prejudice is saved for the poor and dark of skin.

Edited July 1, 2007 by lannarebirth

[meom]

So, may I ask, why the bitterness among the Farangs about this when the native Thais don't seem to give a dam_n?

Don't know mate. As a matter of fact I don't give a dam_n either and wouldn't know the difference between a chinese-thai and a thai-thai except maybe for the women cause the story goes chinese-thai women are more fair skinned which is probably a generalisation anyway cause Mrs Meom is fair skinned but thai-thai.

Another generalisation is that thai-chinese have good business sense because they are easy to spend other peoples money and not spend a dime of their own money but I reckon that's applicable to basically all thai people and not limited to chinese-thai only.

[Johpa]

......There also does not seem to be any "automatic" resentment against fellow Thais who are rich (no class-struggle).

IRONICALLY, it is only in ThaiVisa where I see so many farang whingers who like to be the ones to "blame it on the elite", or "blame it on the hi-so", or "blame it on the Thai chinese", etc., when the local Thais don't seem to brand their fellow Thais of chinese descent as being "different".

To them, the Thai chinese are simply "Thai", and even elect them to government......

.....So, may I ask, why the bitterness among the Farangs about this when the native Thais don't seem to give a dam_n?

Is it because a certain group of farangs are upset that this particular group of Thais, the hi-so or the Thai-Chinese, don't "worship" the Farangs as "white gods" the same way the lower-classed Thais do?

I am just a middle aged curmudgeon whose Thai friends are also 50 years of age or more, mostly ethnic Thais or non-Chinese minorities, and born in the rural areas, and perhaps things have changed amongst the younger generations. But my acquaintances all refer to certain people as being Chinese and talk about the Thai-Chinese as being a bit different. They also tend to fear the power of the Thai-Chinese and treat them with a certain amount of deference, actually quite a bit of deference and a tinge of fear. So in my experience, and your mileage may vary, your claim that the larger ethnic Tai community perceives the Sino-Thai as being "simply" Thai does not hold water.

As to why there is no, or little political consciousness of a class struggle in Thailand is an excellent question with no simple answers. There certainly have been attempts over the decades such as the Thai Farners Federation that is documented in Chai-Anan and Morrell's book, a movement that was met with brutal State repression as was the CPT.

I do not believe in shooting a messenger nor do I believe that reasoned criticism arises from bitterness. And after a nearly 30 year connection to Thailand the closest I have been to a "white god" is the rare times I had a beard and somoene would call me Hanuman, although cleanshaven sometimes I was seen as just a laughable white monkey, I shall try to dismiss your last preposterous claim without predjudice.

It would be interesting to know which other Southeast Asian country you were living in to compare the history of the overseas Chinese in that country to those in Thailand.

[CarlBkk]

Pretty sure he was referring to Indonesia, although I don't know why he felt the need to hide the fact in the original post.

[Jet Gorgon]

Pretty sure he was referring to Indonesia, although I don't know why he felt the need to hide the fact in the original post.

Yep, my initial thoughts, too, after the mob attacks and killing of Chinese there in 1998.

Never thought about the racist division. People are either nice and honest or they're jerks and scammers. Who cares where they come from or how they look.

[Luckydog]

Pretty sure he was referring to Indonesia, although I don't know why he felt the need to hide the fact in the original post.

Yep, my initial thoughts, too, after the mob attacks and killing of Chinese there in 1998.

Never thought about the racist division. People are either nice and honest or they're jerks and scammers. Who cares where they come from or how they look.

Here Here JG well said! Too bad peeps like your good self are in the minority in this prejudised World......

[cooL_guY_corY]

a lot of the Thai people i know are very racist towards Chinese people

[wolfmanjack]

If i remember right it wasn't too long ago that many people in thailand would not admit to being chinese because of the hatred.

[Creeper]

Is it because a certain group of farangs are upset that this particular group of Thais, the hi-so or the Thai-Chinese, don't "worship" the Farangs as "white gods" the same way the lower-classed Thais do?

Or, is it painful for a farang from the "wealthy west" to come to Asia thinking he's richer than everyone here, only to find out in the end that there are actually "real live Asians" who are much much richer than him?

BINGO!

Many Farang are bitter against anyone with more money than themselves, especially Thai's.

Times are changing folks, long gone are the days of European world domination, Asia is on the rise and Europe is getting into a real mess, Great Britain once had a mighty Empire, The Romans, Greeks, Egyptians also had their day, but they are all long gone.

It seems it's the Asians who will be the future dominant force, and many Farang just can't hack it. especially those from ex powerhouse, Great Britain.

[canuckamuck]

Personally, my bias extends only this far: If I really need to find something that is a bit out of the ordinary. I will search out a Chinese shop, because they don’t usually have all the same stock as all of their neighbors. I find the Chinese shops have a much bigger understanding of inventory, and if they don’t have something, they will know how to get it as opposed to most of the Thai shops which often don’t even know what is on the rack right in front of them.

Beyond that, I could care less.

Is there a Thai bias against the Thai Chinese? Yes, but it is not that big either.

Edited July 2, 2007 by canuckamuck

[November Rain]

Is it because a certain group of farangs are upset that this particular group of Thais, the hi-so or the Thai-Chinese, don't "worship" the Farangs as "white gods" the same way the lower-classed Thais do?

Or, is it painful for a farang from the "wealthy west" to come to Asia thinking he's richer than everyone here, only to find out in the end that there are actually "real live Asians" who are much much richer than him?

BINGO!

Many Farang are bitter against anyone with more money than themselves, especially Thai's.

Times are changing folks, long gone are the days of European world domination, Asia is on the rise and Europe is getting into a real mess, Great Britain once had a mighty Empire, The Romans, Greeks, Egyptians also had their day, but they are all long gone.

It seems it's the Asians who will be the future dominant force, and many Farang just can't hack it. especially those from ex powerhouse, Great Britain.

Oh, here we go again with the Brit-bashing...

Speaking as a Brit, but also for myself (as I can't presume to speak for anyone else, be they my countrymen or not) I have no problem with people having more money or power than me, be they Thai, Chinese-Thai, Malaysian, Indian or from any other Asian nation. I also don't mind them having more if they're European, American, Australian or even Martian. I personally do not take much notice of race or nationality, because as Jet said, you get nice people & jerks from every country in the world.

One thing I would not do is criticise people simply because of their nationality, like you have just done, Creeper. Makes you wonder who really has the problem with others, doesn't it?

[Heng]

If people want to whinge, rationalize why they and/or their families are living like they are, IMO it's their right. The term 'agitators' suggests that they have the ability to rock the boat. Hardly. Lifeboat maybe.

As for Indonesia, the problem there is that we, the Huaren or overseas Chinese, crossed the line (and continue to tighten the noose so to speak) on the % of wealth -it was 90% a decade ago and probably closer to 95% now-. under non-pribumi control, without much intermarriage... although a good number of overseas Chinese are Muslim there, so there is hope that that will be enough to infiltrate the control system there in the long run. IMO it's only a matter of time, as per the golden rule.

Thailand has maintained a fairly healthy balance of the Thai-Chinese controlling around 80-85% of the wealth, along with higher rates of intermarriage which makes it seem like ethnic Thais control more than they really do - also serving as a buffer between the pure Thai Chinese and more Thai Thai Chinese. The inevitable trend/growth "takeover" rate is much slower as well, so it doesn't hurt as much. More like a slow drip IV when compared to a painful shot.

[Scott]

Nationalism has a lot to do with these things in Thailand. I know people who are Thai-Chinese. During times of intense nationalism they are only "Thai", then when things are good, they are back to being Thai-Chinese.

I remember saying to a friend of mine when Thaksin went to China during the early part of his "reign", that I hoped he minded his P's & Q's or he would be out--quicker than if he were just Thai. Being of Chinese descent isn't a big problem, but it can be a nail in the coffin and it starts people to not really trusting them.

Basically, in the past 20+ years, I've seen it go back and forth. Times of great pride in Chinese heritage and everyone claiming it and then times when hardly anyone is Chinese.

[funfun]

Is it because a certain group of farangs are upset that this particular group of Thais, the hi-so or the Thai-Chinese, don't "worship" the Farangs as "white gods" the same way the lower-classed Thais do?

Or, is it painful for a farang from the "wealthy west" to come to Asia thinking he's richer than everyone here, only to find out in the end that there are actually "real live Asians" who are much much richer than him?

BINGO!

Many Farang are bitter against anyone with more money than themselves, especially Thai's.

Times are changing folks, long gone are the days of European world domination, Asia is on the rise and Europe is getting into a real mess, Great Britain once had a mighty Empire, The Romans, Greeks, Egyptians also had their day, but they are all long gone.

It seems it's the Asians who will be the future dominant force, and many Farang just can't hack it. especially those from ex powerhouse, Great Britain.

Oh, here we go again with the Brit-bashing...

Speaking as a Brit, but also for myself (as I can't presume to speak for anyone else, be they my countrymen or not) I have no problem with people having more money or power than me, be they Thai, Chinese-Thai, Malaysian, Indian or from any other Asian nation. I also don't mind them having more if they're European, American, Australian or even Martian. I personally do not take much notice of race or nationality, because as Jet said, you get nice people & jerks from every country in the world.

One thing I would not do is criticise people simply because of their nationality, like you have just done, Creeper. Makes you wonder who really has the problem with others, doesn't it?

Here, Here! "Ex Power house", She seems to be doing ok to me!

[ProThaiExpat]

There well may be a great deal more expressed racism in Thailand against Thai-Chai if Thais were not so inculcated with an inclination not to complain and weren't so politically correct.

In the U.S. there is a vast difference in the expressed racism against Blacks now than there was fifty years ago, but, in my view much of it is political correctness, not necessarily less racism.

Perhaps this is an operative factor in Thailand as well?

[Dr. Burrito]

Well, if you want to take the POV of the Thai-Chinese, I can certainly say they look upon indigenous Thais as non-produce, lazy or otherwise only valuable for delvierying rice and watermelons to their superior trading hands.

I was having this very conversation with my Thai-Chinese neighbor last night, him bringing it up, not me, and he clearly sees native Thais as not nearly so on the ball as he and his brethern. I state a fact when I say he said it was genetic, as if 1,000,000,000 Chinse living in China and working in menial labor positons were not the same as the Thais doing the same here. It was a ###### argument, him not getting the fact that out of 1.2 billion people, even with a smaller percentage on the ball, they can dominate economies through sheer mass alone. That's not smart thinking, its simply arithmetic.

Try telling that to a Thai-Chinese and get their ego check on it.

Dr. B

[Ned]

Following a massive influx of Chinese workers into Thailand beginning in the 1830's successive Thai rulers cleverly employed some of the new arrivals as tax collectors....a classic divide and rule tactic.

Chinese were also not subject to forced labour (corvee labour) like the Thai peasants were. This involved working for nothing for many months of the year with the fruits of their labour going to the 'authorities'. When commercialisation of the rice trade began in the mid 1800's Chinese were given the middleman role amassing massive wealth as controllers of rice mills. Later they moved into banking and the rest is history.

[chuchok]

This excellent post was posted by Heng in a totally unrelated thread a few months ago.

The Chinese have immense influence in Thailand and the Thai gov't have historically admired the chinese work ethic.

Over a hundred years ago, the Thai gov't encouraged marriage between the Thai and Chinese in order to instill some of that work ethic in their native Thai populace.

Well, not exactly. It's been more of a love and hate relationship. Easily within the past 100 years the Thai-Chinese have been forbidden (by the gov't) from opening Chinese schools, speaking Chinese, and harrassed by the police and army - this only stopped when the Thai Chinese finally took control of the police and army... first by supporting/sponsoring friendly Thais to rise up through the ranks and then in combination with pushing Thai Chinese candidates to the higher up posts. I think any admiration has only come from the fact that nowadays there aren't too many other folks to emulate: the Thai Chinese have pretty much taken over (and where there are gaps, there is probably only one degree of separation involved) the entire economy, from toothpicks to telecoms.

Resistance is futile.

Edited July 2, 2007 by chuchok

[stickman]

If you look at what is respected and why respect is given in Thailand, you might find your answers there....

On a somewhat related topic, I have noticed a major trend amongst Chinese Thais over the last few years. Maybe it is only the last 3 years that I have really seen this happen but for sure, it is happening. Chinese Thais would always traditionally refer to themselves as Thai, or Chinese Thai. Now some are referring to themselves as "Chinese". My feeling is that this is partly attributable to China's rapidly growing and increasingly important enconomy. I have found this nuance most fascinating into the psyche of the people.

[bangkokrick]

With reference to the Brit basher. Why would you feel the need to turn a perferctly good discussion into having a go at other nationalities are you feeling a little inferior today?

China is having massive economic growth at the moment as we all know and it is pulling up the surrounding Asian countries by the shirt tails, so yes there is growth throughout the whole of Asia. The one thing that we should take into consideration is that China/Asia has become the 'workshop' for the world and most of the control and the profits is still going to the Mangements in the West. On the whole China is producing branded goods for the Western companies at a much reduced cost and the huge profits are going into the Western coffers. They currently have a huge advantage by pegging the currency to the dollar and in my opinion this will change going forward.

Having worked in China for the past 12 years i have seen much of the country and i have seen a minority of the population take a majority of the wealth. The vast majority of the Chinese population are still living on the breadline despite the huge ecomomic growth.

Most of the business men that i deal with on Thailand are indeed Chinese/Thai and are much richer than i will ever be but i personally don't resent this although i think that many of the Thai employees do.

[junkofdavid2]

There well may be a great deal more expressed racism in Thailand against Thai-Chai if Thais were not so inculcated with an inclination not to complain and weren't so politically correct.

In the U.S. there is a vast difference in the expressed racism against Blacks now than there was fifty years ago, but, in my view much of it is political correctness, not necessarily less racism.

Perhaps this is an operative factor in Thailand as well?

I think not.

Can you imagine whites voting for a black president? (The way the native thais vote for Thai chinese).

But I could be wrong... Barrack Obama might catch us all by surprise.

[mellow1]

When I go to the bank,the people working there are almost all Thai- Chinese.The person cleaning the toilet is Thai as well as the guard.Most people in a position of authority in Thailand will be Thai-Chinese.

If you had ever lived in the USA. you would know that the Blacks are much more racist than whites,it's just not politically correct to say that.They are also quite racist against any other race.They will not accept the fact, that all races where at one time enslaved.They will especially not accept the fact,that their own people sold them into slavery.

I certainly can see China becoming the "power house" in Asia,if they don't have some sort of revolution,and slaughter each other first.I do not see Thailand becoming a "power house".

There are a lot of rich people in Thailand,much more than the West realizes,it's too bad,that after becoming rich, many have, a beggars mentality.

To be worshiped, has never even crossed my mind.But,it has to you.

[artao]

Thai-Chinese are poor man! they are brainwashed by Thai goverment.

[Couthy]

My missus is Thai / Chinese.

Sometimes she's Thai.

Other times, she's Chinese.

But when she's both....................yum, yum, yum.

Beauty and brains.

[CarlBkk]

Is it because a certain group of farangs are upset that this particular group of Thais, the hi-so or the Thai-Chinese, don't "worship" the Farangs as "white gods" the same way the lower-classed Thais do?

Or, is it painful for a farang from the "wealthy west" to come to Asia thinking he's richer than everyone here, only to find out in the end that there are actually "real live Asians" who are much much richer than him?

BINGO!

Many Farang are bitter against anyone with more money than themselves, especially Thai's.

Times are changing folks, long gone are the days of European world domination, Asia is on the rise and Europe is getting into a real mess, Great Britain once had a mighty Empire, The Romans, Greeks, Egyptians also had their day, but they are all long gone.

It seems it's the Asians who will be the future dominant force, and many Farang just can't hack it. especially those from ex powerhouse, Great Britain.

I don't think it's so much a resentment about them having more money, rather how they act/what they do when they have it that us "white Gods" resent.

[mrtoad]

Is it because a certain group of farangs are upset that this particular group of Thais, the hi-so or the Thai-Chinese, don't "worship" the Farangs as "white gods" the same way the lower-classed Thais do?

Or, is it painful for a farang from the "wealthy west" to come to Asia thinking he's richer than everyone here, only to find out in the end that there are actually "real live Asians" who are much much richer than him?

BINGO!

Many Farang are bitter against anyone with more money than themselves, especially Thai's.

Times are changing folks, long gone are the days of European world domination, Asia is on the rise and Europe is getting into a real mess, Great Britain once had a mighty Empire, The Romans, Greeks, Egyptians also had their day, but they are all long gone.

It seems it's the Asians who will be the future dominant force, and many Farang just can't hack it. especially those from ex powerhouse, Great Britain.

I don't think it's so much a resentment about them having more money, rather how they act/what they do when they have it that us "white Gods" resent.

Carl, I beleive that you are making a good point. I for one will certainly not become an apologist for the actions of some of other felow Farangs in the present or in the past, but I firmly beleive that the way people behave says a lot about the person and their upbringing. You don't have to be a multi millionaire to have respect for others and money doesn't teach you understanding, morals or ettiquate. I have many friends who are of Chinese origin from my University days, and they quite often get embarraswed by the way that some of the rich or influential people act, and it is the same for me when I look at some of the people from my country. Why does this Rich = more knowlagable originate from, because from my recollection some of the richer people are not the most sagacious, but just the most corrupt or rely on nepotism.

As for the poster who believes that Asia is the next powerhouse, I think that is pretty hillarious whn you compare the UK with the whole continent of Asia. It may well be countries like China, India, but I seriously doubt that Thailand with its emphasis on the feudal system as a way forward will be classed as a powerhouse.