Thai Children With Foreign Fathers Don't Have Full Citizenship Rights In Thailand

[BAF]

...acquired Thai citizenship (you know, the one identified by the different starting number on your "Thai" ID...

Do you know the meaning of each of the different starting numbers? So far, I have only seen ID cards of people who acquired their Thai nationality by being born of a Thai father or Thai mother, and they all start with 3. It would be interesting to see what other starting numbers have been assigned to the other possibilities of acquiring Thai nationality.

--

Maestro

One of my in-laws is a judge (poo-pi-pak-sa) in Udon Thani and I was first told about this "code" by him.

The only "special" starting number I can remember of is "3" because that's what it was on all of my luk-k'n acquaintances in Thailand. I was told by him about the others but having never seen them in real life I quickly forgot about what means what.

Anyway, a weird thing is: my wife's father is half Japanese and half Laotian (his Laotian mother was living in Thailand from childhood) but he has somehow got Thai citizenship (born in Thailand anyway). My wife's mother is Thai.

Now, my wife and her 2 older sisters all have IDs starting with 3... I don't have an explanation for that.

[BAF]

doesn't being born in Thailand of an alien father imply that the mother is Thai?

It does not.

--

Maestro

Does it really sound plausible to you saying "born to a foreign father" wanting to refer to children "born to foreign parents"?

I'm still not convinced. In my opinion it's meant to comprise either:

children born to a foreign father and a Thai mother

OR

children born to a foreign father and a Thai mother and children born to foreign parents.

The latter, given Thai laws' "cultural setting" and precedents, is more likely.

[BAF]

A. You have to dig up the old Immigration act B.E. 2508 to get a definitive and legal answer to that.

I and my wife don't know any Thai woman married to a foreigner prior to 1992 and it's not easy to investigate the matter from Italy. Any one here who can help?

An extremely interesting issue which could explain a lot of the things we are discussing here, isn't it?

B. Who says men cannot? I see nothing to that effect in the current Immigration Act. On the contrary, the Act clearly states that Thai woman, and only woman, can, if they marry a foreigner and if they wish to renounce Thai nationality, apply to the government to have their Thai nationality revoked. Thai men marrying a foreigner are not given this option. They are condemned to retain their Thai nationality whether they like it or not. In other words, you’ve got it all wrong.

Maestro, it's samran who says that Thai women are allowed to hold dual citizenship and Thai men cannot. Then he goes on to say that since Thai women can hold it Thai men should be able to do the same since (I quote) "it already allows some Thai's to have it. Given that the consitution (when we have one) typically says that a Thai nationals shall be treated equally before the law, if one Thai is allowed to have dual nationality, then all are".

It's clear he believes that the present set of laws (conflicts and constitutional rulings apart) allow holding dual citizenship ONLY to Thai women.

My opinion is different from yours AND from samran's.

I believe no one can presently legally hold dual citizenship and the weird Section 13 says what it says because either:

1. previously Thai women lost their Thai citizenship by simply marrying foreigners

2. if Thai women married to foreigners want to acquire their husbands' citizenship they can do so by renouncing their Thai citizenship WHILE the laws make no provisions for Thai men married to foreigners and wanting to acquire their wifes' citizenship (in other words they can't renounce and aren't supposed to take foreign citizenships and if so they do their Thai citizenship will/may be revoked as per the Section 22)

C. If with “the past” you mean before 1992, my son is proof. He was born long before 1992 and automatically acquired Thai nationality by birth. On the strength of evidence of his mother’s Thai nationality (ID card) a birth certificate was issued to say that my son was a Thai national, and again long before 1992 a Thai passport was issued to him.

Yes I meant before 1992 but not necessarily up until 1992. I mean it could be something older and already changed before 1992.

[BAF]

Just found on the Tilleke & Gibbins (big and famous law firm in Thailand) website:

Under the new provisions of the Thai Nationality Act (No. 2) B.E. 2535 (A.D. 1992), any person, whether born inside or outside Thailand, whose father or mother has Thai nationality, is entitled to register his/her Thai nationality at the local district office where he/she wants to have his/her name registered in a house registration. He/she must submit various required documents.

And on the US, CDN and AUS Thai embassies websites:

According to the Thai Nationality Act (2535 B.E.), it has opened a possibility for a person, born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom, to acquire Thai nationality.

It appears clear that before not every one "born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom" could acquire Thai nationality but they could or could not according to the different combinations of:

A. having a Thai father and a foreign mother

B. having a Thai mother and a foreign father

C. being born within the Thai kingdom

D. being born outside the Thai kingdom

This definitely lends credence to my interpretations.

Edited July 8, 2007 by BAF

[highdiver]

Just found on the Tilleke & Gibbins (big and famous law firm in Thailand) website:

Under the new provisions of the Thai Nationality Act (No. 2) B.E. 2535 (A.D. 1992), any person, whether born inside or outside Thailand, whose father or mother has Thai nationality, is entitled to register his/her Thai nationality at the local district office where he/she wants to have his/her name registered in a house registration. He/she must submit various required documents.

And on the US, CDN and AUS Thai embassies websites:

According to the Thai Nationality Act (2535 B.E.), it has opened a possibility for a person, born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom, to acquire Thai nationality.

It appears clear that before not every one "born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom" could acquire Thai nationality but they could or could not according to the different combinations of:

A. having a Thai father and a foreign mother

B. having a Thai mother and a foreign father

C. being born within the Thai kingdom

D. being born outside the Thai kingdom

This definitely lends credence to my interpretations.

1.I may be wrong but from what my lawyer explained to me the provision in the law was to allow the registration of citizenship to be done out side of thailand.

before it was only possible to apply in thailand.

[samran]

A. You have to dig up the old Immigration act B.E. 2508 to get a definitive and legal answer to that.

I and my wife don't know any Thai woman married to a foreigner prior to 1992 and it's not easy to investigate the matter from Italy. Any one here who can help?

An extremely interesting issue which could explain a lot of the things we are discussing here, isn't it?

B. Who says men cannot? I see nothing to that effect in the current Immigration Act. On the contrary, the Act clearly states that Thai woman, and only woman, can, if they marry a foreigner and if they wish to renounce Thai nationality, apply to the government to have their Thai nationality revoked. Thai men marrying a foreigner are not given this option. They are condemned to retain their Thai nationality whether they like it or not. In other words, you’ve got it all wrong.

Maestro, it's samran who says that Thai women are allowed to hold dual citizenship and Thai men cannot. Then he goes on to say that since Thai women can hold it Thai men should be able to do the same since (I quote) "it already allows some Thai's to have it. Given that the consitution (when we have one) typically says that a Thai nationals shall be treated equally before the law, if one Thai is allowed to have dual nationality, then all are".

It's clear he believes that the present set of laws (conflicts and constitutional rulings apart) allow holding dual citizenship ONLY to Thai women.

My opinion is different from yours AND from samran's.

I believe no one can presently legally hold dual citizenship and the weird Section 13 says what it says because either:

1. previously Thai women lost their Thai citizenship by simply marrying foreigners

2. if Thai women married to foreigners want to acquire their husbands' citizenship they can do so by renouncing their Thai citizenship WHILE the laws make no provisions for Thai men married to foreigners and wanting to acquire their wifes' citizenship (in other words they can't renounce and aren't supposed to take foreign citizenships and if so they do their Thai citizenship will/may be revoked as per the Section 22)

C. If with “the past” you mean before 1992, my son is proof. He was born long before 1992 and automatically acquired Thai nationality by birth. On the strength of evidence of his mother’s Thai nationality (ID card) a birth certificate was issued to say that my son was a Thai national, and again long before 1992 a Thai passport was issued to him.

Yes I meant before 1992 but not necessarily up until 1992. I mean it could be something older and already changed before 1992.

Um, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said - anywhere - that Thai males couldn't have dual nationaity. I am a Thai male. I have dual nationality. Funnily, my Thai BC issued by the Royal Thai Embassy, was issued in 1992, nearly 20 years after I was born the year the 1992 legislation came into effect. I have Thai nationality, by virtue of being born to a Thai mother, one who happened to be married to an Australian citizen and herself who naturalised as an Australian citizen in the mid 1970's. My Thai BC and Tabieen Baan clearly states my father is Austalian and mother is Thai. If it was íllegal' for my mother to have Thai nationality in her circumstances, there is not a snowflakes chance in hel_l that I'd be able to get Thai nationality by descent.

Heng, another member of this board is a Thai male, he has dual nationality. I've come and gone from Thailand since 1992 on three seperate Thai passports , with very little questioning. Where it has been questioned (once by the Ampur when applying for my ID card (begins with a 5) and by immigration at Sadao) a phone call to immigration or speaking to a senior officer clears up the issue.

If your reading of the law leads you to a certain interpretation of section 13, then that is well and good. Luckily for me, your interpretations don't matter. My mother, living in Australia for nearly 40 years, got her Thai passport back in 1992. She comes and goes from Thailand on two passports a couple of times a year. So do the wives of many members of these boards. My daughter, a blond haired, blued eyed princess, applied for her Thai passport last year at the passport office here in thailand. She was successful (indeed her BC says she is Thai...even though her mother is foreign). She has Australian and NZ nationality to boot, and if we choose to revive it, FLR in the UK till the end of 2008 (which is then extendable).

So, if you think it is illegal, how do you explain my and my mothers repeated success in getting new passports (all very legitimately)? Tell me, are the passport offfice, Thai embassy, district office, customs and immigration, are they ALL misreading the laws and you are not?

[BAF]

Um, you are putting words in my mouth. I never said - anywhere - that Thai males couldn't have dual nationaity.

samran, post #51: "it [section 13] already allows some Thai's to have it. Given that the consitution (when we have one) typically says that a Thai nationals shall be treated equally before the law, if one Thai is allowed to have dual nationality, then all are"

Your reasoning is that: Section 13 allows Thai women to hold dual citizenship, there is no law allowing Thai men to hold dual citizenship but since "all Thais are equal before the law" and some Thais "have it" they all surely must be allowed to have it too.

Which words have I put into your mouth?

I am a Thai male. I have dual nationality. Funnily, my Thai BC issued by the Royal Thai Embassy, was issued in 1992, nearly 20 years after I was born the year the 1992 legislation came into effect. I have Thai nationality, by virtue of being born to a Thai mother, one who happened to be married to an Australian citizen and herself who naturalised as an Australian citizen in the mid 1970's. My Thai BC and Tabieen Baan clearly states my father is Austalian and mother is Thai. If it was íllegal' for my mother to have Thai nationality in her circumstances, there is not a snowflakes chance in hel_l that I'd be able to get Thai nationality by descent.

Heng, another member of this board is a Thai male, he has dual nationality. I've come and gone from Thailand since 1992 on three seperate Thai passports , with very little questioning. Where it has been questioned (once by the Ampur when applying for my ID card (begins with a 5) and by immigration at Sadao) a phone call to immigration or speaking to a senior officer clears up the issue.

I have never said that in today practical everyday life Thais aren't holding dual citizenship, my wife too has already applied to get Italian citizenship and she is not going to renounce her Thai citizenship.

All I said is that nowhere in Thai laws Thai citizens are allowed CLEARLY AND EXPLICITLY to hold dual citzenship. To have changhed are the interpretation and application of the laws (as it often happens in Thailand), not the the laws themselves.

Section 22. A person of Thai nationality who bas been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

Quote here the Thai laws which (as clearly and explicitely as Section 22) allow dual citizenship for Thai citizens (of both sexes).

If your reading of the law leads you to a certain interpretation of section 13, then that is well and good. Luckily for me, your interpretations don't matter. My mother, living in Australia for nearly 40 years, got her Thai passport back in 1992.

Why not before 1992? It's clear she can from 1992's new Thai Nationality Act but what I quoted from the T&G law firm and from the AUS, CDN and USA Embassies seem to confirm that things were different before 1992 and it's not clear what the situation for each different case was before.

"Each different case" = born to Thai parents, born to Thai father and foreign mother, born to Thai mother and foreign mother, born in Thailand, born abroad etc and each combination of the preceding.

Edited July 9, 2007 by BAF

[Livinginexile]

Just found on the Tilleke & Gibbins (big and famous law firm in Thailand) website:

Under the new provisions of the Thai Nationality Act (No. 2) B.E. 2535 (A.D. 1992), any person, whether born inside or outside Thailand, whose father or mother has Thai nationality, is entitled to register his/her Thai nationality at the local district office where he/she wants to have his/her name registered in a house registration. He/she must submit various required documents.

And on the US, CDN and AUS Thai embassies websites:

According to the Thai Nationality Act (2535 B.E.), it has opened a possibility for a person, born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom, to acquire Thai nationality.

It appears clear that before not every one "born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom" could acquire Thai nationality but they could or could not according to the different combinations of:

A. having a Thai father and a foreign mother

B. having a Thai mother and a foreign father

C. being born within the Thai kingdom

D. being born outside the Thai kingdom

This definitely lends credence to my interpretations.

The point is BAF is that the Thai government can revoke the off springs citizenship at any time they like, even on trumped up charges.

section: 17 clearly states this.

If they start to make too much money using their foriegn fathers money, they can revoke the citizenship too.

[jumnien]

Why would they revoke citizenship because they are making too much money for Thailand. The whole point of handing out Thai citizenship to folks like Bill Heineke is that they make a lot of money for Thailand.

[BAF]

The point is BAF is that the Thai government can revoke the off springs citizenship at any time they like, even on trumped up charges.

section: 17 clearly states this.

If they start to make too much money using their foriegn fathers money, they can revoke the citizenship too.

That acquired Thai citizenships CAN (not saying it happens to Westerners, just CAN) be easily revoked under the most absurd pretexts (just think about "He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals"!) is an already ascertained fact. For example, any foreigner who has got Thai citizenship after his PR knows (should know) it. It's just that, generally, people seem uninterested in it as if it's some kind of trivial and secondary small detail...

Incredible and crazy, I know.

[BAF]

Why would they revoke citizenship because they are making too much money for Thailand.

This is Livinginexile's point and I leave it to him to answer this but:

The whole point of handing out Thai citizenship to folks like Bill Heineke is that they make a lot of money for Thailand.

No, he got his Thai citizenship not because of his wealth but because of the connections he had because of his wealth.

It may interest you that PRs were handed out with BIG (in the order of hundreds million Baht) BOI projects and, AFAIK, with the latest round of changes that's another thing which is no more...

[Livinginexile]

Why would they revoke citizenship because they are making too much money for Thailand.

This is Livinginexile's point and I leave it to him to answer this but:

The whole point of handing out Thai citizenship to folks like Bill Heineke is that they make a lot of money for Thailand.

No, he got his Thai citizenship not because of his wealth but because of the connections he had because of his wealth.

It may interest you that PRs were handed out with BIG (in the order of hundreds million Baht) BOI projects and, AFAIK, with the latest round of changes that's another thing which is no more...

BAF

I may be way off the mark here but what in Thai legal terms does this statement mean.

"(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;"

To me this sounds like if the foreign father starts make big business under his Thai son's name, then they can revoke the son's citizenship to stop this. Am I reading this wrong here?

[samran]

um, laws a generally written to prohibit or regulate things. If it isn't regulated, then, ergo, it is allowed is it not? There is no need to write a law allowing dual nationailty. Australia, NZ, the UK, the US, and many countries in Europe don't prohibit people holding dual nationaity. At the same time, there is no need for legislation to "allow" it. As such, people hold as many passports as they want. Who says the law has to allow something for it to be legal?

In my case, I don't come under any of the provisions that are in the Thai law that ban it. As such, I should be allowed it.

Section 13. A woman of Thai nationality who marries an alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband according to the nationality law of her husband, shall, if she desires to renounce Thai nationality, make a declaration of her intention before the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations

.

I am not a woman, this doesn't apply. But this is important to me, as it applies to my mother. She never renounced her Thai nationality, so as her child, it passes on to me. I am a natural born Thai.

Section 14. A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father and has acquired the nationality of his father according to the law on nationality of his father, or a person who acquires Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph 2 is required, if he desires to retain his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality within one year after his attaining the age of twenty years, according to such form and in the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his father or a foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases where Thailand is being engaged in armed conflict, or is in state of war, he may order the dispensation of any renunciation of Thai nationality.

This applies to me, but I chose not to renounce any citizenships at age 20. This passage only gives a choice. If I don't make a choice, nothing happens. So I keep both passports. Anyway, section 14 is unenforceable. It says in plain English that if I want to remain an Australian, I have to give up my Thai passport. The Australian governments logical reply would be that the Thai government has no right to take away my Australian nationality. As a natural born Australian, I am an Australian citizen for life. In anycase, conferal and revocation of Australian citizenship is a matter for the Australian government, not the Thai governments. So if I don't give up my Thai passport, there is no way the Thai government can take away my Australian one.

Section 15. Except in the case under Section 14, a person who has Thai nationality and other nationality, or who acquires Thai nationality by naturalisation shall, if he desires to renounce Thai nationality, file an application with the competent official according to such form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

The granting or refusal of permission for renunciation of Thai nationality shall lie with the discretion of the Minister.

Well, this doesn't apply to me. But what is interesting is that the minister can even refuse to revoke a persons Thai nationality, meaning that they get to keep it. Thus, I presume, you remain with both nationalities. Even section 15 recognises the concept of dual nationality (see underlined).

Section 16. With respect to an alien woman who acquires Thai nationality by marriage, her Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) The marriage was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) She commits any act prejudicial to the security, or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(3) She commits any act contrary to public order or good morals

.

I'm not an woman. And I aquired my citizenships by birth.

Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals.

The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor, shall order the revocation of Thai nationality.

I wasn't born in the Kingdom, so it doesn't apply to me. And, it doesn't apply to most people who were born to foreign fathers. The reason most luuk krung children get Thai nationality, is by virtue of being born to a Thai national parent. Thats how they get Thai nationaily. As Astral has already explained, they don't get their Thai nationality from their foreign fathers, which is just about impossible. Nevertheless, this clause concentrates soley on Thai children who have, somehow, gotten their Thai citizenship from their foreign fathers.

Again, I think this clause is uneforecable. The only was to get Thai nationaity by being born in thailand is to have at least one parent who is a Thai national, or BOTH parents as permanent residents. In which case, it is easy enough to claim that the Thai nationality was passed down by the PR mother, rather than the PR 'foreign' father.

Being born to a PR dad and a non PR mum doesn't grant the kid citizenship.

Section 18. When there exist circumstances suitable for maintaining the security or interests of the State, the Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of the person who acquires Thai nationality under Section 7 Bis. paragraph two

.

This doesn't apply to me. I wasn't born in the kingdom.

Section 19. The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalisation if it appears that:

(1) The naturalisation was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2) There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5) He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

I didn't aquire Thai nationality by naturalisation.

Section 20. A Committee shall be set up consisting of the Under Secretary of State for Interior as chairman, a representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Director-General of the Department of Administrative Affairs, the Director-General of the Police Department and the Director-General of the Public Prosecution Department as members, having the duty to consider the revocation of Thai nationality under Sections 16, 17(1) or 18, 19.

Where circumstances appear with respect to any person that his Thai nationality may be revoked, the competent official shall submit the latter for consideration of the Committee. After consideration, the Committee shall refer its opinion to the Minister for direction.

Not relevant to me.

Section 21. A person of Thai nationality who was born of an alien father and may acquire the nationality of his father according to the law n nationality of his father shall lose Thai nationality if he obtains an alien identification card according to the law on registration of aliens.

I've never had an Alien ID card in Thailand (ie I've never become a PR). I've always had a Thai passport while here.

Section 22. A person of Thai nationality who bas been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

I haven't been naturalised as a Thai, renounced it, or had it revoke.

Presumably, I am Thai then as well as remaining Australian.

Anyway, I can see your head is about to explode BAF. I'm cutting you off at every turn. Nevertheless, I'm sure that you'll find a way to tell me that I'm entirely wrong.

[samran]

Why would they revoke citizenship because they are making too much money for Thailand.

This is Livinginexile's point and I leave it to him to answer this but:

The whole point of handing out Thai citizenship to folks like Bill Heineke is that they make a lot of money for Thailand.

No, he got his Thai citizenship not because of his wealth but because of the connections he had because of his wealth.

It may interest you that PRs were handed out with BIG (in the order of hundreds million Baht) BOI projects and, AFAIK, with the latest round of changes that's another thing which is no more...

BAF

I may be way off the mark here but what in Thai legal terms does this statement mean.

"(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;"

To me this sounds like if the foreign father starts make big business under his Thai son's name, then they can revoke the son's citizenship to stop this. Am I reading this wrong here?

you are, unless you beleive in conspiracy theories.

[BAF]

Australia, NZ, the UK, the US, and many countries in Europe don't prohibit people holding dual nationaity.

YES, IT'S THAILAND WHICH DOES:

Section 22. A person of Thai nationality who bas been naturalised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai nationality, or whose Thai nationality has been revoked, shall lose Thai nationality.

I haven't been naturalised as a Thai, renounced it, or had it revoke.

Presumably, I am Thai then as well as remaining Australian.

Are you saying, now, that the only Thais allowed to hold dual citizenships are the ones who got another citizenship FIRST?

Anyway, I can see your head is about to explode BAF. I'm cutting you off at every turn.

You know, it seems exactly the opposite to me.

Reread the whole thread, it's me who keeps precisely answering your posts point by point and it's you who keeps "forgetting" to answer most of the questions and arguments I make...

P.S. The one clear thing emerging from this thread (for those who didn't already know it) is that Thai laws are an inextricable mess which can be interpreted to mean one thing and its opposite.

I don't think it's entirely due to the stupidity of the lawmakers, I think it's kept this way on the clear purpose of enabling the rich and powerful to be legally able to do whatever the F they please.

[jumnien]

Don't worry, be happy! I'm not too worried that my son (Thai-US) will have his Thai citizenship revoked. Even if he did, he'd still have the US citizenship. I'm living here perfectly happy without Thai citizenship. I'm sure he could too. Happiness, it's not about the law; it's a spiritual thang!

[BAF]

BAF

I may be way off the mark here but what in Thai legal terms does this statement mean.

"(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;"

To me this sounds like if the foreign father starts make big business under his Thai son's name, then they can revoke the son's citizenship to stop this. Am I reading this wrong here?

No, I don't think you are.

I simply believe that's not the main purpose of those set of laws. Also, I don't think they have ever been enforced against Westerners/half Westerners.

They are just there to enable them to be able to do that IF and WHEN someone rich and powerful so needs/pleases.

Despite the Thai apologists' fairy tales about the Thai Democracy and the Thai Constitution (both of them gone anyway...) no one has any safety nor any certain right in Thailand. Thais included and foreigners much less so.

[jumnien]

I think the reason we all live here is that we have no certain right in Thailand. It's a very buddhist, letting-go kind of thing, and pleasant in a precariously perverted sort of way. If I wanted legal certitude I'd return to my land of birth, no thanks, and start hiring lawyers and suing my neighbors for the emotional trauma caused by their barking chihuahuas. There is a certain freedom that emanates from this rightless condition. It's rather addictive over time!

[BAF]

Don't worry, be happy! I'm not too worried that my son (Thai-US) will have his Thai citizenship revoked. Even if he did, he'd still have the US citizenship. I'm living here perfectly happy without Thai citizenship. I'm sure he could too. Happiness, it's not about the law; it's a spiritual thang!

You had already posted this drivel at the start of the thread and got an answer so since you like to drone on ignoring people's replies I'm going to do the same.

Copy and paste of BAF's reply to the same mdeland's drivel:

A. I'm not worrying about anything, I don't have half-Thai children nor am I half-Thai myself.

B. No one has ever said some half-farang quasi-half Thai is going to be stripped of his quasi-real Thai citizenship (to my knowledge that's never happened except for the tribes up north for whom nobody here seem to worry or fret about much...)

C. Isn't this a Thai based discussion board? What are we supposed to be talking about if not Thailand, its culture, its society and the values and principles it's based on?

[jumnien]

Your use of the judgemental term "drivel" seems to suggest that you are holding on to negative emotions. Let go, Let go, Let go!

[samran]

Don't worry, be happy! I'm not too worried that my son (Thai-US) will have his Thai citizenship revoked. Even if he did, he'd still have the US citizenship. I'm living here perfectly happy without Thai citizenship. I'm sure he could too. Happiness, it's not about the law; it's a spiritual thang!

You had already posted this drivel at the start of the thread and got an answer so since you like to drone on ignoring people's replies I'm going to do the same.

Copy and paste of BAF's reply to the same mdeland's drivel:

A. I'm not worrying about anything, I don't have half-Thai children nor am I half-Thai myself.

B. No one has ever said some half-farang quasi-half Thai is going to be stripped of his quasi-real Thai citizenship (to my knowledge that's never happened except for the tribes up north for whom nobody here seem to worry or fret about much...)

C. Isn't this a Thai based discussion board? What are we supposed to be talking about if not Thailand, its culture, its society and the values and principles it's based on?

While I've been an active participant in this thread, it is time for me to be a mod.

Clearly Mdeland was posting his pragmatic perspective on the state of things here. He expressed it with no animosity towards you BAF, and you turn around and bite his head off? You've been warned.

[BAF]

I think the reason we all live here is that we have no certain right in Thailand. It's a very buddhist, letting-go kind of thing, and pleasant in a precariously perverted sort of way. If I wanted legal certitude I'd return to my land of birth, no thanks, and start hiring lawyers and suing my neighbors for the emotional trauma caused by their barking chihuahuas. There is a certain freedom that emanates from this rightless condition. It's rather addictive over time!

On this basis countries like Cambodia or Somalia are the most free of all...

Real freedom is for me that which is granted by the law and is actually enforced by a country's police force and judicial system.

I don't think we in the West have much of this freedom, but we have the closest thing to it in the whole world. By far.

If all of the world was like these corrupt s.hitholes most probably you wouldn't have been able to be where you are doing what you do...

[BAF]

While I've been an active participant in this thread, it is time for me to be a mod.

Clearly Mdeland was posting his pragmatic perspective on the state of things here. He expressed it with no animosity towards you BAF, and you turn around and bite his head off? You've been warned.

And where is my animosity? It's because of the word "drivel" I used? I apologize for it if it sounds so bad in English, the Italian translation the dictionary I use gives did sound innocent enough.

I was just slightly annoyed because he had ALREADY posted the same things and I had ALREADY replied that I am not worrying about anything nor I think should people worry.

Just discussing the topic (ie: is it true? is it false? how should we interpret it? etc).

[jumnien]

The truth of thai children with foreign fathers not having full citizenship rights in Thailand, as it applies to the vast majority of our lives, is that this doesn't seem to be manifesting as much of a problem.

[BAF]

Your use of the judgemental term "drivel" seems to suggest that you are holding on to negative emotions. Let go, Let go, Let go!

OK, just seeing your post after having already replied to samran's warning.

I apologize if "drivel" is too strong a word.

Now, hadn't you already got the answer to the exact same things you repeated there? Why repeating them without first addressing the answer you had already got?

Edited July 9, 2007 by BAF

[BAF]

The truth of thai children with foreign fathers not having full citizenship rights in Thailand, as it applies to the vast majority of our lives, is that this doesn't seem to be manifesting as much of a problem.

EXACTLY. It doesn't seem to be manifesting. But, the issue IS there.

Agree?

[jumnien]

Not manifest, but there... Wow, what a concept! Quite philisophical. I'll have to ponder the "there-ness" of the non-manifest and get back to you.

[BAF]

Not manifest, but there... Wow, what a concept! Quite philisophical. I'll have to ponder the "there-ness" of the non-manifest and get back to you.

They may not be applying that law but the law is there.

Get it?

[Maestro]

Back to the intended meaning in this topic’s title: a child born of a foreign father, as mentioned in Section 17 of the Nationality Act.

Samran mentioned it: the only situation where being born in Thailand is an essential factor in the acquisition of Thai nationality is where both parents are foreigners and at least one parent has Permanent Residency (PR)

Everybody, please – that is everybody who is still reading this topic – go and read Section 7.bis of the Act:

Section 7. bis. A person born within the Thai Kingdom of alien parents does not acquire Thai nationality if at the time of his birth, his lawful father or his father who did not marry his mother, or his mother was:

(1) the person having been given leniency for temporary residence in Kingdom as a special case;

(2) the person having been permitted to stay temporarily in the Kingdom;

(3) the person having entered and resided in the Thai Kingdom without permission under the law on immigration.

I find this section interesting because it lists the various situations in which a child does not acquire Thai nationality by being born in Thailand of foreign parents. We all are left to figure out what other situations are left. One such situation, the only one I can think of, is a child with no Thai parent but at least one foreign parent with PR. This foreigner with PR does not fit into any of the categories listed in Section 7.bis(1)-(3)

These persons holding PR can be male or female, father or mother. For mothers, no distinction is made. Of fathers there are two kinds: the father who is married to the mother, and the father who is not married to the mother.

Who is the child who acquired Thai nationality by being born of a foreign father, as mentioned in Section 17? Let’s do it like Section 7.bis, ie by way of exclusion:

– It is not the child whose foreign mother has PR, regardless whether she is married or not.

– It is not the child whose foreign father and foreign mother both have PR.

– It is not the child whose foreign father is married to his foreign mother and does not have PR but his mother has PR.

therefore,

– It is the child whose father has PR, is married to his foreign mother and his mother does not have PR.

– It is the child whose father has PR, is not married to his foreign mother and his mother does not have PR.

My head is spinning. Did I get this right? If I did get it right, did I just solve the puzzle of Section 17?

--------------

Maestro

[BAF]

My head is spinning. Did I get this right? If I did get it right, did I just solve the puzzle of Section 17?

Maestro, have you seen this table? (sorry I don't know how to keep its format)

This is how things are supposed to have been changed by the 1992 Thai Nationality Act. It's available on many Thai official websites.

1. Born within the Territory of the Kingdom of Thailand

Case - Nationality of Father - Nationality of Mother - Matrimony Status - Nationality of the Child

1 Thai Thai Register Thai

2 Thai Thai No Thai

3 Thai Legal Alien Register Thai

4 Thai Legal Alien No Thai

5 Thai Illegal Alien Register Thai

6 Thai Illegal Alien No Thai

7 Legal Alien Thai Register Thai

8 Legal Alien Thai No Thai

9 Illegal Alien Thai Register Thai

10 Illegal Alien Thai No Thai

11 Legal Alien Legal Alien Register Thai

12 Legal Alien Legal Alien No Thai

13 Legal Alien Illegal Alien Register Cannot acquire Thai Nationality

14 Legal Alien Illegal Alien No Cannot acquire Thai Nationality

15 Illegal Alien Legal Alien Register Cannot acquire Thai Nationality

16 Illegal Alien Legal Alien No Cannot acquire Thai Nationality

17 Illegal Alien Illegal Alien Register Cannot acquire Thai Nationality

18 Illegal Alien Illegal Alien No Cannot acquire Thai Nationality

2. Born outside the Territory of the Kingdom of Thailand

Case - Nationality of Father - Nationality of Mother - Matrimony Status - Nationality of the Child

1 Thai Thai Register Thai

2 Thai Thai No Thai

3 Thai Other Nationality Register Thai

4 Thai Other Nationality No Thai

5 Other Nationality Thai Register Thai

6 Other Nationality Thai No Thai

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited July 9, 2007 by BAF