Are CFO positions reserved for Thai?

[Silvermane]

Hi all,

 

we've been looking hard at relocating to Thailand well before the retirement age which means we obviously still need to generate income for many years to come.

My wife is currently on a good income in Australia being that she's a CFO and this in large part carries our mortgage.

We would prefer not to have to sell our Australian property at this point in time, which means that my wife would not be able to step down too much in terms of salary expectation from any role that she would be looking at in Thailand. In looking at salary ranges for CFO's in Thailand, there shouldn't be any issue to keep covering our Australian mortgage, however, all the ads we're seeing are for Thai nationals only.

 

I'm aware that, similar to Australia, certain roles need very elaborate justification to be outsourced to a non-local individual, but I just wanted to check whether anyone knows from experience if expats are genuinely considered for high-end finance positions at all or whether these types of positions are almost always held by Thai people (language being one of a variety of understandable considerations of course) and employers will therefore not go through the hassle of Visa and work permit sponsorship?

 

If the latter, then I guess our only viable relocation strategy would be to sell the property first, eliminating the mortgage pressure, and then look for less financially rewarding (but hopefully less stressful) work ;)

 

Thanks in advance for any insights anyone is able to share!

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Silvermane

[Celsius]

There is absolutely zero value your wife could bring to a Thai company. I could go on and on and really on about why is that the case, but the major issue is that as much as Thais, Westerners are stuck in their ways. This is a strictly cultural thing, no offense.

 

As for the Australian property do not sell it. Rent it out and try to cover mortgage payments that way. Very easy to sell in Australia, very hard to sell in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

[marin]

Unless she is fluent in written and spoken Thai her odds are zero.

[LogicThai]

A couple of pointers that might be useful to you and your wife:
•    Many Thai companies are family-owned or family-controlled, and the CFO tend to be a family member of close ally of the family, hence a Thai national (Sino-Thai, actually).
•    In general, for a number of reasons, Thai companies see little point in importing talent.
•    Nominal compensation levels in Thailand are often substantially lower than in the Western world. 
•    Visa and work permit are not big hurdles, if a Thai company really wants you to join the. Sadly enough, hardly any company will want to.
•    There are non-Thais who serve as CFO of a Thai company, but those I know of have been appointed by a foreign majority (or large minority) shareholder.
•    Alternative strategies that might be considered in the case of your wife might include joining a company as regional CFO, based in Bangkok but not limited to Thailand, or joining a professional services company like a Big4, once again preferably in a regional capacity.

[Silvermane]

25 minutes ago, Celsius said:

There is absolutely zero value your wife could bring to a Thai company. I could go on and on and really on about why is that the case, but the major issue is that as much as Thais, Westerners are stuck in their ways. This is a strictly cultural thing, no offense.

 

As for the Australian property do not sell it. Rent it out and try to cover mortgage payments that way. Very easy to sell in Australia, very hard to sell in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

no offence taken whatsoever! We had a suspicion that this would be a culturally biased role, and we don't take that personally either from the Thai or for you for pointing it out ;)

But not being on the ground, it's difficult to know for sure so thx for confirming.

 

Agreed on not wanting to sell, however the mortgage is quite significant and rent would certainly not cover the full extent of the mortgage and maybe not even the interest only side of things.

Anything that we would need to cover on top of the rent towards the mortgage either reduces our potential to rent something nice in Thailand or drives up the need for a more financially rewarding income in Thailand. Trust me, numbers have been crunched on this given that the Mrs is financial and all :D

 

 

11 minutes ago, marin said:

Unless she is fluent in written and spoken Thai her odds are zero.

We get by on the basics and we'd be very keen to get fluent once we get a chance to move, but written seems like a veeery long shot :) 

We had it in our heads that potentially Sr finance people who would be reporting into her would be proficient enough in English that they would be able to assist sufficiently for that not to be an issue initally.

But yes, point taken and that was of course something we had considered as well.

 

11 minutes ago, LogicThai said:

A couple of pointers that might be useful to you and your wife:
•    Many Thai companies are family-owned or family-controlled, and the CFO tend to be a family member of close ally of the family, hence a Thai national (Sino-Thai, actually).
•    In general, for a number of reasons, Thai companies see little point in importing talent.
•    Nominal compensation levels in Thailand are often substantially lower than in the Western world. 
•    Visa and work permit are not big hurdles, if a Thai company really wants you to join the. Sadly enough, hardly any company will want to.
•    There are non-Thais who serve as CFO of a Thai company, but those I know of have been appointed by a foreign majority (or large minority) shareholder.
•    Alternative strategies that might be considered in the case of your wife might include joining a company as regional CFO, based in Bangkok but not limited to Thailand, or joining a professional services company like a Big4, once again preferably in a regional capacity.

Thx for that, that really confirms some of what we had thought as well as teaches us some things that we couldn't have known without having already lived/worked in Thailand.

My wife currently works for a global FMCG company and we migrated to Australia from Europe thx to this company. Whilst we've thoroughly enjoyed our near-decade long stay in Australia, we do feel we're ready for the next step though. 

Unfortunately, whilst her company is aware of this, they do not have any upcoming opportunities in Thailand and the other areas under consideration in S.E-Asia are not something we would be inclined to consider ourselves. There may be potential for Vietnam at one point but it's too vague and long-term to want to stick around for this.

 

 

[wordchild]

What about searching for a position with one of the international FMCG companies that have a significant presence  in Thailand eg Nestle, Pernod,Diageo, Unilever, Haleon, etc etc. Probably zero chance that your wife (or any external hire) could get a very senior position with one of these. However , if her profile fits, she might get a shot at a good mid-level role.  

A finance role within an NGO or even the UN (which is huge here) might also be worth considering.

  Forget about local Thai companies, especially family controlled ones, for all the reasons mentioned above.

Edited March 21, 2023 by wordchild

[wordchild]

If a company was listed on the local SET then i could understand that a Thai CFO might be useful eg for ease of communication with auditors ,market participants, regulators etc. However it is certainly not a requirement , as far as i am aware. In fact i can think of at least one SET listed co where both the CEO and the CFO are non-Thai.

The company I work for here (not SET listed) our CFO is Singaporean and, out of a local board of 8, we only have 2 Thais.

Edited March 21, 2023 by wordchild

[LogicThai]

46 minutes ago, wordchild said:

If a company was listed on the local SET then i could understand that a Thai CFO might be useful eg for ease of communication with auditors ,market participants, regulators etc. However it is certainly not a requirement , as far as i am aware. In fact i can think of at least one SET listed co where both the CEO and the CFO are non-Thai.

The company I work for here (not SET listed) our CFO is Singaporean and, out of a local board of 8, we only have 2 Thais.

Okay, and what nationality are the shareholders, one might ask ?

[LogicThai]

1 hour ago, wordchild said:

Forget about local Thai companies, especially family controlled ones, for all the reasons mentioned above.

And one might add that working with Thais is challenging enough, but that working for Thais must take it to an entirely different level...

Edited March 21, 2023 by LogicThai

[wordchild]

12 hours ago, LogicThai said:

Okay, and what nationality are the shareholders, one might ask ?

The company i was thinking of was Siam City Cement (SCCC), where both the CEO and CFO are non-Thai. The company has a range of shareholders (Thai institutions and other individuals) with the majority being Thai, as required by law.

However the significant (and effectively largest) shareholder is Jardine Cycle and Carriage the Singapore conglomerate which is in turn controlled by the Jardine Matheson Group.

 

 

[wordchild]

The point i wanted to make to the OP is that the idea that EVERY company operating in Thailand is completely dominated by Thais is simply not true.

The vast majority of the major INTERNATIONAL companies that operate in Thailand (a few of which i mentioned above) are not dominated by Thai execs. In most cases (that i can think of) many of  the key positions are held by non-Thais.

Obviously International businesses that operate here are required to adhere to Thai Law eg as regards to the level of Thai shareholding (covering the company owned Thai assets) , however these companies are able to structure themselves in ways that stay  within the law but protect their own interests and retain effective control.

The Thai Government is extremely keen to attract international companies to Thailand, especially those that intend to use Thailand as their regional HQ, and they are very well aware that a certain flexibility is required if they are to do this. 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by wordchild

[Silvermane]

1 hour ago, wordchild said:

The point i wanted to make to the OP is that the idea that EVERY company operating in Thailand is completely dominated by Thais is simply not true.

The vast majority of the major INTERNATIONAL companies that operate in Thailand (a few of which i mentioned above) are not dominated by Thai execs. In most cases (that i can think of) many of  the key positions are held by non-Thais.

Obviously International businesses that operate here are required to adhere to Thai Law eg as regards to the level of Thai shareholding (covering the company owned Thai assets) , however these companies are able to structure themselves in ways that stay  within the law but protect their own interests and retain effective control.

The Thai Government is extremely keen to attract international companies to Thailand, especially those that intend to use Thailand as their regional HQ, and they are very well aware that a certain flexibility is required if they are to do this. 

 

Hi wordchild, thanks for nuancing some of the earlier inputs. Of course, nothing is as one-sided as it is ever claimed to be, but what was said up until now certainly reflects the sense we were getting from some of the job ads for these types of roles. It left us feeling that this was something we should probably not spend much more time in pursuing if you already know beforehand that the deck is stacked against you.

 

If the local companies tend to be Thai exec dominated and the international companies typically bring in their own, known quantity, execs from other parts of the world (at least, that's been the case in my experience so I would think the same would apply for Thailand), then I reckon it's going to be an uphill battle. Not that we shy away from challenges, but I also like to target our efforts where it has the highest chance of success.

 

If however there is any way to keep this path open, happy to hear about how we could improve our chances to come across and be considered for the limited amount of opportunities where a foreign exec would be welcome :). We've obviously been putting feelers out on LinkedIn and reaching out to some of the more reputable Thai recruiters (sometimes on the back of roles that we knew she would not be considered for), but not a peep back so far. So just weighing the cost/benefit of pursuing this strategy by way of staying informed through things like this forum.

 

Again, many thanks to all for sharing your perspectives!

 

16 hours ago, wordchild said:

What about searching for a position with one of the international FMCG companies that have a significant presence  in Thailand eg Nestle, Pernod,Diageo, Unilever, Haleon, etc etc. Probably zero chance that your wife (or any external hire) could get a very senior position with one of these. However , if her profile fits, she might get a shot at a good mid-level role.  

A finance role within an NGO or even the UN (which is huge here) might also be worth considering.

  Forget about local Thai companies, especially family controlled ones, for all the reasons mentioned above.

My wife does have contacts at Nestle in Europe (think she may know a few at Unilever as well), but doubtful that it's something that would lead to anything, even mid-level, in Thailand without having spent some time working for those companies directly first. One of the thoughts is to see if one of those companies is hiring here in Australia (not for a CFO role, those only come up once in a blue moon of course) but it would imply taking a step back as well as turning this into a longer term strategy. At that point, we may as well play the long game with her current company in hopes that the Vietnam expansion pans out, in which case she's more likely to be moved up to the MD level.

 

 

 

 

 

[wordchild]

Yes, it is definitely the case that multinationals operating in Thailand  tend to bring in staff from elsewhere within the group (as they tend to do everywhere else) and i should have made that clear in my post. 

Recruiting from outside does happen , and i can think of a couple of examples, but it is rare.

Funnily enough i do know someone who was recruited to a very senior position with Nestle Thailand from outside the group. However , in this case, he was well known to Nestle as he worked for a key supplier and was likely seen as someone with a specialist skill set.

 

Maybe , as i suggested above, consider the NGO sector, or focus on Aussie mid-size companies (where your wife may have some connection) that have aspirations to grow in ASEAN.

Edited March 22, 2023 by wordchild

[FritsSikkink]

On 3/21/2023 at 3:23 PM, Celsius said:

There is absolutely zero value your wife could bring to a Thai company. I could go on and on and really on about why is that the case, but the major issue is that as much as Thais, Westerners are stuck in their ways. This is a strictly cultural thing, no offense.

There are loads of foreign CEO's in Thailand, so the reason stuck in their ways is nonsense.

A friend of mine is Head of Finance for a multinational living in Thailand for 9 years, he is from Europe.

 

[FritsSikkink]

On 3/21/2023 at 7:12 PM, LogicThai said:

And one might add that working with Thais is challenging enough, but that working for Thais must take it to an entirely different level...

I don't have no problems working with Thais which differ from people from other countries.

[FritsSikkink]

On 3/22/2023 at 8:50 AM, wordchild said:

The point i wanted to make to the OP is that the idea that EVERY company operating in Thailand is completely dominated by Thais is simply not true.

The vast majority of the major INTERNATIONAL companies that operate in Thailand (a few of which i mentioned above) are not dominated by Thai execs. In most cases (that i can think of) many of  the key positions are held by non-Thais.

Obviously International businesses that operate here are required to adhere to Thai Law eg as regards to the level of Thai shareholding (covering the company owned Thai assets) , however these companies are able to structure themselves in ways that stay  within the law but protect their own interests and retain effective control.

The Thai Government is extremely keen to attract international companies to Thailand, especially those that intend to use Thailand as their regional HQ, and they are very well aware that a certain flexibility is required if they are to do this. 

 

If you setup a BOI company, a foreigner / foreigners can own all the shares.

[FritsSikkink]

On 3/22/2023 at 10:12 AM, Silvermane said:

Hi wordchild, thanks for nuancing some of the earlier inputs. Of course, nothing is as one-sided as it is ever claimed to be, but what was said up until now certainly reflects the sense we were getting from some of the job ads for these types of roles. It left us feeling that this was something we should probably not spend much more time in pursuing if you already know beforehand that the deck is stacked against you.

 

If the local companies tend to be Thai exec dominated and the international companies typically bring in their own, known quantity, execs from other parts of the world (at least, that's been the case in my experience so I would think the same would apply for Thailand), then I reckon it's going to be an uphill battle. Not that we shy away from challenges, but I also like to target our efforts where it has the highest chance of success.

 

If however there is any way to keep this path open, happy to hear about how we could improve our chances to come across and be considered for the limited amount of opportunities where a foreign exec would be welcome ????. We've obviously been putting feelers out on LinkedIn and reaching out to some of the more reputable Thai recruiters (sometimes on the back of roles that we knew she would not be considered for), but not a peep back so far. So just weighing the cost/benefit of pursuing this strategy by way of staying informed through things like this forum.

 

Again, many thanks to all for sharing your perspectives!

 

My wife does have contacts at Nestle in Europe (think she may know a few at Unilever as well), but doubtful that it's something that would lead to anything, even mid-level, in Thailand without having spent some time working for those companies directly first. One of the thoughts is to see if one of those companies is hiring here in Australia (not for a CFO role, those only come up once in a blue moon of course) but it would imply taking a step back as well as turning this into a longer term strategy. At that point, we may as well play the long game with her current company in hopes that the Vietnam expansion pans out, in which case she's more likely to be moved up to the MD level.

Have a look at ExecThread, they are recruiting for high end jobs in Thailand. 

Most of the people reacting negatively here only have barstool knowledge. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by FritsSikkink

[Celsius]

1 minute ago, FritsSikkink said:

There are loads of foreign CEO's in Thailand, so the reason stuck in their ways is nonsense.

A friend of mine is Head of Finance for a multinational living in Thailand for 9 years, he is from Europe.

 

 

Yes, yes.... so predictable. There is always the one with a "friend".

 

So, please do employ the OP's wife, I am sure it is super duper easy.  And it's CFO, not CEO lol. 

 

It is 100% cultural thing. You have a friend, I have the first hand experience with my wife who has been dealing with local and international companies for 20 years. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FritsSikkink]

1 minute ago, Celsius said:

 

Yes, yes.... so predictable. There is always the one with a "friend".

 

So, please do employ the OP's wife, I am sure it is super duper easy.  And it's CFO, not CEO lol. 

 

It is 100% cultural thing. You have a friend, I have the first hand experience with my wife who has been dealing with local and international companies for 20 years. 

I work here and have many friends in high positions, you are talking nonsense.

[Celsius]

6 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

I work here and have many friends in high positions, you are talking nonsense.

 You provided zero value with execthread and just embarrassed yourself. The site has zero relation to Thailand and it also seems to be a scam. 

 

https://www.trustpilot.com/review/execthread.com

 

 

Google shows 19 reviews with an average rating of 2.5/5. More than 60% of these reviews were negative, with many customers using terms like “scam” to describe it. Some reviewers claimed that the job opportunities they found on the ExecThread website were outdated or completely irrelevant to their industry.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Celsius

[FritsSikkink]

8 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 You provided zero value with execthread and just embarrassed yourself. The site has zero relation to Thailand and it also seems to be a scam. 

 

https://www.trustpilot.com/review/execthread.com

 

 

Google shows 19 reviews with an average rating of 2.5/5. More than 60% of these reviews were negative, with many customers using terms like “scam” to describe it. Some reviewers claimed that the job opportunities they found on the ExecThread website were outdated or completely irrelevant to their industry.

I actually do get job offers in Thailand through them, so you are talking nonsense again. No real life experience at your end.

[Celsius]

Just now, FritsSikkink said:

I actually do get job offers in Thailand through them, so you are talking nonsense again. No real life experience at your end.

 

I don't think so bud. One has to wonder why would you promote a scam site.

[FritsSikkink]

35 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

I don't think so bud. One has to wonder why would you promote a scam site.

They helped me to improve my CV without any payment. Read the reviews in your link and was surprised. Haven't got a bad experience myself but saw that quite a few others did. I am not your bud.

Edited March 23, 2023 by FritsSikkink

[richard_smith237]

On 3/21/2023 at 11:37 AM, marin said:

Unless she is fluent in written and spoken Thai her odds are zero.

Only to a Thai company doing business within Thailand. 

 

I know a couple of CFO’s (Westerners) working for large international companies, their asset is clearly that they bring their individual experience to that international role in whereby a Thai CFO with only Thai experience would be limited.

 

Thus: Such rolls are taken by Westerners, but I imagine this involves a lot of digging and networking.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

On 3/21/2023 at 3:12 PM, LogicThai said:

And one might add that working with Thais is challenging enough, but that working for Thais must take it to an entirely different level...

Don’t be ridiculous....   Working for Thai’s is the same as working for Brits or anyone of any other nationality...   There is no one size fits all generalisation, everyone is different. I’ve worked for excellent Thai’s and terrible Thai’s, just as I have worked for and with excellent individuals and very poor individuals rom many different nationalities. 

 

But, that depends on the ‘level’ you are working at and the respect the position you are in and those around you demands - At the lower levels, working for anyone is rarely pretty !!.. 

 

 

 

 

[Celsius]

13 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Thus: Such rolls are taken by Westerners, but I imagine this involves a lot of digging and networking.

 

Such positions are rarely hired from inside Thailand.