When there is a legal disagreement, do the courts treat foreigners fairly when compared to Thai citizens?

[Pouatchee]

Geez... so much bad advice here. I can't remember the title of the report, but a few years ago there was such a story on here reported by TV that a man in the same situation took his wife to court over the ownership of the car and house. The judge gave the man access to 1/2 of everything and the ex had to pay up. As much as I hate the way we are treated here sometimes the law does prevail. So, dude, lawyer up and go for 1/2 of everything. It is your due and it is your right. If you don't fight you will surely lose. Putting up a good fight and not winning doesn't mean you lost... sometimes the dice don't roll our way. But if you don't try you will never know.

[rose33]

58 minutes ago, JosephH said:

It's kinda disappointing seeing all those negative replies, 
Some one has all the evidence and read all the Thai law related to this matter and assure it's his right
but yet he can't take his right !!!!!!!! 
not just that most of replies don't want him to keep fighting for his obvious right ??
that's a big disgrace when no longer there's a hope of justice without feeling a shame on how life and justice turned out
when there's no law it's a jungle law

Thailand is NOT the west. Stop expecting Thailand to be something other than what it is. 

[JosephH]

1 minute ago, rose33 said:

Thailand is NOT the west. Stop expecting Thailand to be something other than what it is. 

Being a human or having rights doesn't has to be related to any region at all
Justice is not related to any region at all, you just need to take off the racism glasses you wearing you might seeing better 

[soi3eddie]

1 hour ago, JosephH said:

It's not an option, He is seeking justice

Unfortunately, justice is something he's unlikely to get in any way, shape or form. Either financially, emotionally or morally. Sad for him and his son.

 

[NativeBob]

Had very ugly experience with Thai partnership. Shortly - thai partner spent so-called "investment" on himself and his family, left completely useless junk and stop answering phone calls. It took about 3 months and NO LAWYER at all. The Court building has many helpful people that speak English and will help you to fill the forms. 

Thai fella thought "this is Thailand and is not west". Well judge convinced him that he was wrong: Thailand is not a banana republic and law applies to everybody. 

The OP case is very straight forward and lawyer will be needed only for technical purposes: translate, submit and receive. And follow dates. Can take fresh-grad - cheaper and more fun.

[scottiejohn]

1 minute ago, JosephH said:

Being a human or having rights doesn't has to be related to any region at all
Justice is not related to any region at all, you just need to take off the racism glasses you wearing you might seeing better 

Totally agree but T.I.T.S!

 

As you may be a newbie I will explain T.I.T.S! =This Is Thailand Stupid!

 

The "Stupid" in the remark is NOT directed at you personally (it is a common expression among expats) but just at all newcomers who make statements in the same vain as your post!

 

The Thai system does not work the way you think it should.  But surprisingly it does seem to work once you accept/understand it!

 

just go with the flow!

[Mavideol]

1 hour ago, JosephH said:

so anyone can be a fraud and steal without punishment ? 

 

in the majority of asean countries, YES.... 15 years ago went to a Chinese court to sort out a small misunderstanding with someone, the 3 judges panel ruled against me telling me the problem happen because I went to China, hadn't I been in China there wouldn't be a problem, case close

[Kwasaki]

In 2 cases of marriage break ups I know the both were settled in court 50 - 50 and agreements made by both parties. 

[Mavideol]

1 hour ago, JosephH said:

It's kinda disappointing seeing all those negative replies, 
Some one has all the evidence and read all the Thai law related to this matter and assure it's his right
but yet he can't take his right !!!!!!!! 
not just that most of replies don't want him to keep fighting for his obvious right ??
that's a big disgrace when no longer there's a hope of justice without feeling a shame on how life and justice turned out
when there's no law it's a jungle law

you are talking about Thailand for God's sake, what can one expect here, their logic/reasoning and western logic/reasoning don't match, I understand that's not what u/or friend wants to ear but that's reality

[Gecko123]

OP:
The OP is a confusing mishmash of issues which is why you are getting such crappy all over the road responses. Is your purpose to discuss the Thai legal system, get custody of child, turn the water back on or salvage financial interest in real property?

 

I'm not going to go into this with exhaustive detail, but the key to resolving all of the custody and property issues is to reach an agreement on divorce. Contrary to what you wrote in the OP, Thai law does NOT say that any property purchased during the marriage is marital property and must be split 50/50. If the "friend" can prove that the money to buy the house came from him and was his personal property before he married, then the house is 100% his personal property.

 

If someone has done research or you have been advised by a lawyer that the house is automatically marital property because it was purchased during the marriage, this is completely FALSE. People reach this mistaken conclusion by simply reading the civil code definition of marital property, without also reading the definition of personal property. There are two definitions, both of which need to be understood, One defines marital property and the other defines what is personal or individual property. Go back and read sections 1471 and 1472 carefully. https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/civil-and-commercial-code-marriage-section-1465-1493/

 

It is totally understandable that the court is not going to do anything regarding turning the water on or off. The court probably hasn't been presented with any evidence to make a ruling on this matter. Again, this will be resolved with the divorce settlement. I don't know anything about child custody law in Thailand, but I am 100% confident that what I said above regarding marital property is correct. It has been my experience that Thai family courts are fair and do not discriminate against foreigners. It doesn't matter one iota whose name the property is registered in. What matters is who can prove financial interest in the property. The law says there is a presumption that it is marital property, and the burden of proof that its personal property rests with the person claiming that its personal property.

 

Hope this helps. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Gecko123

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, Snugs08 said:

Wouldn't the conspirators have to pay 2% transfer fee as well? Seems well planned out if the case, as that's 100k out the door before other fees.

 

No, because transfers to family members are taxed/charged as a Deed of Gift, and not a regular sale. Total costs are minimal.

[Dan O]

2 hours ago, JosephH said:

It's kinda disappointing seeing all those negative replies, 
Some one has all the evidence and read all the Thai law related to this matter and assure it's his right
but yet he can't take his right !!!!!!!! 
not just that most of replies don't want him to keep fighting for his obvious right ??
that's a big disgrace when no longer there's a hope of justice without feeling a shame on how life and justice turned out
when there's no law it's a jungle law

So of all the issues the "friend" went thru the one issue he's concerned with is getting justice for the water being turned off. 

[rose33]

1 hour ago, JosephH said:

Being a human or having rights doesn't has to be related to any region at all
Justice is not related to any region at all, you just need to take off the racism glasses you wearing you might seeing better

1 hour ago, scottiejohn said:

Totally agree but T.I.T.S!

 

As you may be a newbie I will explain T.I.T.S! =This Is Thailand Stupid!

 

The "Stupid" in the remark is NOT directed at you personally (it is a common expression among expats) but just at all newcomers who make statements in the same vain as your post!

 

The Thai system does not work the way you think it should.  But surprisingly it does seem to work once you accept/understand it!

 

just go with the flow!

 

Just go with the flow and allow yourself to be treated like a second class citizen. That's the essence of it. 

 

Thailand - like it or leave!!!!

 

[JosephH]

32 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

OP:
The OP is a confusing mishmash of issues which is why you are getting such crappy all over the road responses. Is your purpose to discuss the Thai legal system, get custody of child, turn the water back on or salvage financial interest in real property?

 

I'm not going to go into this with exhaustive detail, but the key to resolving all of the custody and property issues is to reach an agreement on divorce. Contrary to what you wrote in the OP, Thai law does NOT say that any property purchased during the marriage is marital property and must be split 50/50. If the "friend" can prove that the money to buy the house came from him and was his personal property before he married, then the house is 100% his personal property.

 

If someone has done research or you have been advised by a lawyer that the house is automatically marital property because it was purchased during the marriage, this is completely FALSE. People reach this mistaken conclusion by simply reading the civil code definition of marital property, without also reading the definition of personal property. There are two definitions, both of which need to be understood, One defines marital property and the other defines what is personal or individual property. Go back and read sections 1471 and 1472 carefully. https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/civil-and-commercial-code-marriage-section-1465-1493/

 

It is totally understandable that the court is not going to do anything regarding turning the water on or off. The court probably hasn't been presented with any evidence to make a ruling on this matter. Again, this will be resolved with the divorce settlement. I don't know anything about child custody law in Thailand, but I am 100% confident that what I said above regarding marital property is correct. It has been my experience that Thai family courts are fair and do not discriminate against foreigners. It doesn't matter one iota whose name the property is registered in. What matters is who can prove financial interest in the property. The law says there is a presumption that it is marital property, and the burden of proof that its personal property rests with the person claiming that its personal property.

 

Hope this helps. 

I value your thorough response. The Thai law is very clear about this matter as long as he has the evidence of the money transactions, so if his wife wasn't able to prove that she had the money to buy this house even from before it means she is lying, but after reading the sections you mentioned, I realized that the house my friend and his wife purchased after eight years of marriage is still a marital property. My friend here has evidence of the money, transactions, photos, and even a voice recording .. so it’s not Sin Suan Tua it’s Sin somros

[Gecko123]

3 minutes ago, JosephH said:

I value your thorough response. The Thai law is very clear about this matter as long as he has the evidence of the money transactions, so if his wife wasn't able to prove that she had the money to buy this house even from before it means she is lying, but after reading the sections you mentioned, I realized that the house my friend and his wife purchased after eight years of marriage is still a marital property. My friend here has evidence of the money, transactions, photos, and even a voice recording .. so it’s not Sin Suan Tua it’s Sin somros

If he purchased the house with income he earned either from employment or interest income or capital gains that he received while married, then, yes, this would be marital property. But if he can show that he used money that he owned before marriage to purchase the house then that would be personal property, 100% his.

[JosephH]

7 minutes ago, rose33 said:

Just go with the flow and allow yourself to be treated like a second class citizen. That's the essence of it. 

 

Thailand - like it or leave!!!!

 

Why are you pointing at me? I'm not even interested in going there. My friend has ample resources to sue anyone, including the court, if they fail to uphold the law, so stop making shady suggestions that he should abandon his son and his assets and leave because this game is clearly out in the open.

[JosephH]

1 minute ago, Gecko123 said:

If he purchased the house with income he earned either from employment or interest income or capital gains that he received while married, then, yes, this would be marital property. But if he can show that he used money that he owned before marriage to purchase the house then that would be personal property, 100% his.

That was his question.. why, even though he provided every evidence that it's a marriage property, the family court refused to allow him to reconnect the water since it's even listed in the law that the marriage property is managed 50/50 by the married couple it doesn't make sense.. the judge himself confirmed to him that it's a marriage property and he can live there so how can he live without water!!!!

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, JosephH said:

That was his question.. why, even though he provided every evidence that it's a marriage property, the family court refused to allow him to reconnect the water since it's even listed in the law that the marriage property is managed 50/50 by the married couple it doesn't make sense.. the judge himself confirmed to him that it's a marriage property and he can live there so how can he live without water!!!!

Well he should go and get water connected in his name. 

[JosephH]

Just now, Kwasaki said:

Well he should go and get water connected in his name. 

Refused, water authority says the house under her name and they don’t care it’s a marriage property however when she tried to cut the electricity they refused and considered it a marriage property 

[rose33]

1 hour ago, JosephH said:

Being a human or having rights doesn't has to be related to any region at all
Justice is not related to any region at all, you just need to take off the racism glasses you wearing you might seeing better 

U r clueless.

 

Their culture is racist against us.

 

Put on an objective thinking hat and compare the legal systems of western countries versus southeast Asian. How are immigrants and visitors treated in Thailand? Like royalty (as in the west) or like gutter trash (in SE Asia). Read 'Deadly Destination' by John Stapleton, find an English language translation of the Thai national anthem, study the Thai land ownership laws, and reflect upon the true meaning of Thai Cultural Mandate Number 2 of 3 July 1939.

 

What you can't see is that you are wearing western goggles. You grew up in a place that has a very long history of Christianity, public trials, jury trials, elected officials, the Socratic method, the scientific method, the values of the French revolution, etc. You carry this with you and you expect everyone else to think as you do. 

 

You're in a totally foreign environment here. Christianity has never been popular here. Education & critical thinking have never been top priorities here. Stop assuming it is going to be what you WANT it to be, what you EXPECT it to be, or what you would LIKE it to be. 

 

It is Thailand. It is its own place. They are doing THEIR thing on THEIR land. 

 

Let go of your delusions that you are still in the west.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kwasaki]

12 minutes ago, JosephH said:

Refused, water authority says the house under her name and they don’t care it’s a marriage property however when she tried to cut the electricity they refused and considered it a marriage property 

So the same with lecky can happen in getting water,  just sounds like he is letting her mess with him.

Even under Thai law she is being unreasonable.

[rose33]

18 minutes ago, rose33 said:

U r clueless.

 

Their culture is racist against us.

 

Put on an objective thinking hat and compare the legal systems of western countries versus southeast Asian. How are immigrants and visitors treated in Thailand? Like royalty (as in the west) or like gutter trash (in SE Asia). Read 'Deadly Destination' by John Stapleton, find an English language translation of the Thai national anthem, study the Thai land ownership laws, and reflect upon the true meaning of Thai Cultural Mandate Number 2 of 3 July 1939.

 

What you can't see is that you are wearing western goggles. You grew up in a place that has a very long history of Christianity, public trials, jury trials, elected officials, the Socratic method, the scientific method, the values of the French revolution, etc. You carry this with you and you expect everyone else to think as you do. 

 

You're in a totally foreign environment here. Christianity has never been popular here. Education & critical thinking have never been top priorities here. Stop assuming it is going to be what you WANT it to be, what you EXPECT it to be, or what you would LIKE it to be. 

 

It is Thailand. It is its own place. They are doing THEIR thing on THEIR land. 

 

Let go of your delusions that you are still in the west.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know my words were harsh but it's a big leap in thinking that we (westerners) ALL need to make if we're going to survive here.

 

Pretty much every foreigner here has made decisions they regret... Mostly involving money... It's normal, a rite of passage. The clash of cultures can really catch you unawares. 

 

Hope you can find a brighter future soon. Sometimes 'mai bpen rai' and everything works out just fine. Hang in there buddy.

[spidermike007]

In the case of child custody, I hear they actually favor foreigners over most Thais, since it is all about the means and ability to support the child. 

 

I suppose it is case by case. 

[JosephH]

34 minutes ago, rose33 said:

I know my words were harsh but it's a big leap in thinking that we (westerners) ALL need to make if we're going to survive here.

 

Pretty much every foreigner here has made decisions they regret... Mostly involving money... It's normal, a rite of passage. The clash of cultures can really catch you unawares. 

 

Hope you can find a brighter future soon. Sometimes 'mai bpen rai' and everything works out just fine. Hang in there buddy.

Thank you

[ed strong]

On 3/24/2023 at 9:46 AM, Snugs08 said:

Wouldn't the conspirators have to pay 2% transfer fee as well? Seems well planned out if the case, as that's 100k out the door before other fees.

Turning 'bad' money into 'good' money you always have to take a hair cut of some degree.

 

Its getting rid of the direct link to the victim that's important and thus theyre less likely to lose the assets, should they end up in court at a later date.

[kwonitoy]

On 3/24/2023 at 7:26 AM, JosephH said:

Thank you

JosephH.

 

If your friend can produce the paper trail to show he paid for the house he has a good case.

Get a good lawyer and take it to court, BUT be prepared for a long long battle. 

The Thai court system is fair to Thais and foreigners alike but it is extremally slow, I had a straightforward divorce case with my ex wife claiming nonsense amounts of money. It took approximately 2 years to work through the court system until a judgment was delivered, in my favor.

If your friends wife gets an aggressive lawyer or she doesn't want to cooperate it can take many many years.

You go to court with all your material and lawyer, everything in order and your opponent doesn't show or requests more information, come back in 4-6 months. Prepare for slow slow

It took me 4 years to get a judgment on property that was seized by the police as "proceeds of crime" by my convicted ex wife. I won

 

As to the child custody, something seems very odd. A formal letter is sent to the parties as to the date and time of the court case, was this received by your friend?

 

When I did my child custody case because my ex was now in prison, the case was considered a paper exercise, no issues.

But a letter is sent to both parents so they can be at the court to argue their case. My ex was brought is shackles and jumpsuit from the prison, not a good look in a custody case.

The judge did look at both sides very carefully and I was deemed the responsible parent and was given 100% Parental Power

 

@Gecko123  is giving you good advice, some of the others are not.

 

Your friend can win, but how much time and money for a lawyer does he want to invest into his quest however?

 

In my case,

Divorce  100% worth it

Child custody 100 % worth it

Property judgement case, It cost me more to win than the property was worth, but I had the western mindset of this ain't right and I'm going to fight it.  0%