Is Thai a difficult language to understand?

[thailandsgreat]

I find it difficult to understand what Thai people say. For the moment I am not in the Kingdom but hope to return soon. When I have been in Thailand and sometimes "studied" Thai by listening to recordings, people understood what I said but I couldn't understand them. I have had several conversations with taxi drivers from Isaan where they didn't understand my English and I didn't understand their Thai, but we had some type of "conversation" where I spoke my very poor Thai and they spoke English.

 

I have studied other languages, also Asian, but I have never previously enocuntered a language so difficult to understand. Now I listen to the Glossika sentences. They seem well chosen. I am somewhere in the middle stages. I often struggle to understand the sentences. But if I read the sentences (I read the phonetic and Thai script  so so), I recognize the words after which I can understand the sentence when I listen to it. I "know" the words but I don't recognize them when I hear them.

 

Some of it is naturally due to poor knowledge of tones. (Also my knowledge of the precise structure of the sentence with "filler particles" like hai and dai, lacks.) But my impression is that Thai is very variable in pronounciation and structure and therefore difficult to understand for a foreign learner. Is that correct?

 

Has someone else here used the Glossika sentences? They are useful and the webpage works well. But the man who reads them does not sound like when I listen to the Paiboon dictionary. Words are drawn together like "la liaision" in French which is also difficult for foregners. He also speaks pretty fast. (I now reduced speed by 10%.) Is this how Thai people speak in general? Is the problem of understanding Thai due to variations in pronounciation and structure of the language?

Edited March 27, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[BritManToo]

It's probably because you're speaking Central Thai which they understand.

But they reply in Lao which you don't understand.

[asf6]

There are variations in pronunciation in all languages so don't let that put you off.

 

Poor knowledge of tones makes communication difficult with Thai, for both you and the person you are talking to. If you cannot say the words correctly, you probably will not understand a Thai speaker when they say the same words correctly because they will sound different to the way you think the words sound. Practise the different tones. They are important. 

 

But it's not just tone that is important, syllable length is important in Thai. Thai has long vowels and short vowels. Pronouncing a vowel too long or too short can change the meaning of the word you are trying to say. It is therefore important to practise syllable/vowel tone lengths. They are equally important. There are only 5 tones but if you take into account long and short vowels, you end up with 8 or 9 ways a syllable can be pronounced. Learn and practise those and both your listening and speaking should improve. 

 

I wouldn't describe dai and hai as "filler particles". They add meaning. 

 

I haven't used Glossika and I couldn't find any examples on YouTube so I can't comment on that. 

 

Good luck with your learning. 

[Bredbury Blue]

I would say its generally easy to understand when listening to a thai, than it is to be be understood when speaking to a thai as inevitably you'll pronounce things incorrectly.

 

Like speakers of any languages, some thais pronunciation is easy to follow,while some use slang etc and are difficult to follow.

 

Try watching these videos (beginner level) and work your way up to the next level when you feel ready. Don't worry if you don't understand everything, slowly your comprehension will improve 

 

Youtube. Comprehensible Thai. ALG-Style absolute beginner course.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Bredbury Blue

[ColeBOzbourne]

If you feel your listening skills are weak then consider increasing the time you spend listening. Ask yourself how many hours per day you actually spend listening to Thai. How can you be creative with your schedule to increase listening time? Listen to Thai from a variety of sources and, of course, take advantage of any conversation you can get. 

 

I was/still am having the same problem specifically with listening and understanding so I focus more time on that particular skill. Before, I was listening to Thai CD's, TV, language programs, etc., for approximately 2-3 hours per day. Now, I've bumped that up to around 6-8 hours per day. I noticed improvement after a week. I have been doing it for four months, feel positive with the results, and plan to continue. I did the same thing when learning Spanish and kept it up for two years.  

 

I wake up listening to the Thai news on TV. I listen to Thai when I go jogging in the morning, while I'm doing my chores around the house, while I exercise, while I eat lunch, during my nap, while waking up from nap, and throughout the afternoon. I had to cut out some of the other things I enjoy listening to, like talk-show radio podcast from back in my hometown.  I had to get creative with my schedule. At night I give my brain a break.

 

Bombard your brain with listening to Thai on a variety of subjects and from a variety of speakers. Make it a part of your daily routine for a few months/years. Watch and listen to the same things over and over until you practically have them memorized and your brain will begin to pick out words and phrases that you didn't notice before. Good luck. 

[thailandsgreat]

The words are not difficult, but Thai is a hard language to recognize the words of when they are spoken, if you just have heard them from e.g. Paiboon dictionary before. This is "normal" speed (not slowed down) Glossika when about half of the 6000 (?) sentences have been listened to. Admittedly I am just a beginner. Good challenge, I don't mind ????

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hlrbo972cgu4nxc/Thai ex 001.m4a?dl=0

 

And Glossika is good, useful sentences and works well technically.

 

(I follow this thread and I can find it under notifications but not under "manage followed content". Maybe that is as it should be. Maybe I better bookmark it.)

Edited April 1, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[GinBoy2]

It depends where you are coming from.

 

Tonal languages are hard for most non tonal speakers to master.

 

I learnt Mandarin over 30 years ago so I crossed that bridge a long time before I got to Thai and Lao.

 

Once you have mastered one tonal language the rest come pretty easy.

 

Reading Thai is easy, unlike Mandarin which I really struggled with.

 

But you'll need to put in the work to overcome the tonal thing, won't say it's easy, but it'll just click one day

[thailandsgreat]

31 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

It depends where you are coming from.

 

Tonal languages are hard for most non tonal speakers to master.

 

I learnt Mandarin over 30 years ago so I crossed that bridge a long time before I got to Thai and Lao.

 

Once you have mastered one tonal language the rest come pretty easy.

 

Reading Thai is easy, unlike Mandarin which I really struggled with.

 

But you'll need to put in the work to overcome the tonal thing, won't say it's easy, but it'll just click one day

After 7 years in China, in school for a large part of that I must say I don't recognize these problems from Mandarin. Mandarin is standardized. People from different areas learn it in the same way and use similar constructs so you quickly get into it and gradually decipher the different dialects.

 

The tones are not so critical imho. My Chinese friends occasionally could construct sentences to put me off. When we were watching TV about floods in Sweden they said the levels of water are high in Sweden as I heard it, but taxes and water have different tones so they were joking with me and speaking about the level of taxes while we were watching water. That tricked me at the level I was. ???? But in context tones are not so critical imho.

 

But what do you Thai speakers say about the example. Isn't it quick and "drawn together"?

Edited April 1, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[GinBoy2]

5 minutes ago, thailandsgreat said:

After 7 years in China, in school for a large part of that I must say I never had these problems in Mandarin. Mandarin is standardized. People from different areas learn it in the same way and use similar constructs so you quickly get into it and gradually decipher the different dialects.

 

But what do you Thai speakers say about the example. Isn't it quick and "drawn together"?

Well you might be confusing Thai and 'Isaan Lao' or one of the other many variants.

 

Focus on standardized Thai to begin with.

 

I met my wife in Singapore, and she taught me standard Thai while we were living there, and once I'd mastered that she moved on to Lao. She only spoke Thai to me when I was first learning Thai, never Lao

 

The problem you will have is to the ear they sound almost the same, so try to only hear only one to begin with.

[thailandsgreat]

The question is simply if there are more variations of "standard Thai" pronounciation than most other languages. These recordings come from a reputable language course and probably speak "standard Thai", but they sound different than e.g. Paiboon dictionary. What do you Thai speakers say? Are there many variations/dialects to "standard Thai" (naturally excluding Isaan language)? (It is no problem to me, I find it an interesting challenge to find different sources for practice.)

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hlrbo972cgu4nxc/Thai ex 001.m4a?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gbboteia1b0gzfw/Thai ex 002.m4a?dl=0 (end of sentence)

Edited April 2, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[asf6]

^ In both those audio clips, the speakers speak pretty fast.

[thailandsgreat]

This is clear and words are basic, but compared to Paiboon, pronounciation is a little different

 

ร goes from R to L and ช goes from CH to TS, I am used to, but here ช becomes S

 

and ข้างหลัง becomes "kaagang"

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5qgk0w7d0vkrsj/Thai ex 006.m4a?dl=0

 

รถคันข้างหลังชนรถเรา

 

I don't mind, it is good practice, but takes a while since I haven't practiced listening so much yet.

 

The course is good. The sentences come without context which makes them interesting in a way but harder to interpret for a less experienced listener.

Edited April 20, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[asf6]

^ I don't hear the changes you are hearing. It sounds like standard Thai pronunciation to me. 

 

รถคันข้างหลังชนรถเรา

rot kan kaang-lang chon rot rao.

[Lorry]

7 hours ago, thailandsgreat said:

from CH to TS, I am used to, but here ช becomes S

Its not TS and its not S.

 

ช is never CH like an English "ch". It is an initial t melting immediately into an alveolo-palatal fricative like in Mandarin xiao (as in Xiaomi), IPA 

[ɕiɑu˨˩˦]

It's also aspirated, meaning it's followed by a weak h- sound.

 

The initial t is often gone,  that's why its Shinawatra instead of Chinawatra. ช is often used in Thai for an English sh.

But actually the resulting sound 

[ɕ]

(which is heard in the example sentence) may sound more like s (especially like a Spanish s) than like sh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Lorry

[Lorry]

8 hours ago, thailandsgreat said:

ข้างหลัง becomes "kaagang

Listen to it in .5 speed and you hear,  that the speaker isn't ever saying  l for ร, there is a thrill. This influences the preceding ng:

The sibillant ng, which takes time,  becomes a fast plosive at the same position, ie a g.

Yes,  it's very different from  Paiboon.

[thailandsgreat]

10 hours ago, Lorry said:

Yes,  it's very different from  Paiboon.

Interesting how you analyze. I have no real training or practice in Thai but this standard Thai is different from Paiboon. You mention Mandarin pronunciation. Standard Mandarin is not as varied.

 

An interesting challenge of Thai language. I just have to listen more.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[thailandsgreat]

I just copied the sentence into Google translate which "speaks like Paiboon" and I (at my low level) immediately understood.

 

I like this course because sentences are useful and it works technically well. But maybe I should switch course a while just to get back some "self confidence" and then gradually explore other "dialects". That works in Mandarin. If you get the hang of Mandarin you can gradually extend to other dialects/pronunciations.

 

We have two votes for "Google and Paiboon" and one vote for this pronunciation. Maybe the first is "more standard" ?

 

I don't know which other course to use together with this? I like this course because it just gives you useful sentences in audio and writing. It doesn't waste a lot of time on other talk. Structures you want to know more about you can look up elsewhere.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[thailandsgreat]

I switched course for a while and with these speakers I recognize about 80-90% of the words I have studied, whereas with the former course (from which the examples above come) it is often down to 20-30%.

 

One change is "ch" to "ts" or "s" like in this example. (Maybe this can be described in better terms.) This also comes in the new course I listen to:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0nzj95h047slycj/Thai ex 007.m4a?dl=0

 

โอเคก็ดีนะเธอช่วยฉันยกหน่อยได้มั้ย

 

"chuai chan" has become "sueisheng" (and "a" becomes "e", which happens very often)

 

It is interesting to read your analysis. But I am not so good with IPA and detailed phonetics so I leave that, but there is a difference.

 

Some of you guys know Thai. It would be interesting to know the reasons for differences of "standard Thai" (not Isaan language) pronounciation. Are there differences in different regions, different social levels, someone just getting "careless", or what?

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[Lorry]

14 hours ago, thailandsgreat said:

Are there differences in different regions, different social levels, someone just getting "careless", or what?

The examples you gave are none of the above. 

These are regular changes in pronunciation when you change from dictionary pronunciation to normal conversational speech.

 

In English, a poor foreigner may look up the pronunciation  of the words "I", "do", "not", "know" in a dictionary.  But this is not how the sentence "I don't know" is normally pronounced in a conversation. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Lorry

[jts-khorat]

On 4/1/2023 at 6:40 PM, GinBoy2 said:

It depends where you are coming from.

 

Tonal languages are hard for most non tonal speakers to master.

Many people are really scared of the tones, making it a big hurdle in their own head.

 

I did so too in my earliest days here, typical "Farang overthinking".

 

In the end, there are two groups of Thais: there will be those, who simply do not want to understand you, and no matter how perfect your Thai, they will not (foremost by far: bureaucrats when they do not want to give you any service, be it immigration, police or at the Amphur). There is the other group, where you can speak the most horrible and mangled Thai, and they will make a real effort to get your meaning, as you made the effort to learn.

 

When in country, try to stick to the latter and you will be fine. Everything else then follows fairly instinctively by actually speaking the language daily.

[thailandsgreat]

8 hours ago, Lorry said:

The examples you gave are none of the above. 

These are regular changes in pronunciation when you change from dictionary pronunciation to normal conversational speech.

 

In English, a poor foreigner may look up the pronunciation  of the words "I", "do", "not", "know" in a dictionary.  But this is not how the sentence "I don't know" is normally pronounced in a conversation. 

So Paiboon, Thaipod101 and Google Translate are not using "normal conversational speech"?

Edited April 26, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[Lorry]

3 hours ago, thailandsgreat said:

So Paiboon, Thaipod101 and Google Translate are not using "normal conversational speech"?

Google: no

Paiboon: I only know their dictionary and their course for beginners, the answer for both is no

I don't know Thaipod

[thailandsgreat]

19 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Google: no

Paiboon: I only know their dictionary and their course for beginners, the answer for both is no

I don't know Thaipod

So Thai is a little different from many other languages here. There is one pronounciation of words in references like Paiboon dictionary and Google Translate. The dialogues in Thaipod101 mostly sound the same and I pick up about 80-90% of the words I have studied. (They are not "synthesized", but actual people speaking, it seems.) But with some other speakers I am down to 20-30%.

 

Interesting. There must be explanations about the differences between "dictionary pronounciation" and "conversational pronounciation".

Edited April 26, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[Lorry]

18 minutes ago, thailandsgreat said:

So Thai is a little different from many other languages here.

No, every language I know works like this.

I gave you an example for English. 

 

Another example: "you" according to a dictionary is pronounced "yoo".

That's the pronunciation in isolation. 

In context, in actual speech,  it is usually pronounced very different. 

 

18 minutes ago, thailandsgreat said:

There must be explanations about the differences between "dictionary pronounciation" and "conversational pronounciation".

Dictionary: pronunciation in isolation, in addition to this, often quite bookish

Conversation: the word may not be stressed, may be shortened, sounds may assimilate to neighbouring sounds  (you observed ian > ien, an > en), complicated sounds may be simplified (you observed tch > sh which you erroneously describe as s; a rolling r may become a single tap which for foreigners may be indistinguishable from l)

This is still standard Thai, it's not dialect or slang.

[thailandsgreat]

There are really big differences in how "standard Thai" is spoken. Some speakers speak it like the dictionaries and some speak it very differently. This is an important aspect in learning the language which is not so much stressed. Especially the "ch" can change a lot. Like in the example I gave.

 

โอเคก็ดีนะเธอช่วยฉันยกหน่อยได้มั้ย

 

Standard Chinese (also tonal) is not so varied, for example.

 

I am just surprised that this is not discussed and described more in basic courses. The most common I have heard and maybe got used to is  "a" to "e" and "ch" to "ts" or "s" (or maybe better described as "sh", but that's a detail). And "r" often goes to "l" in Asia. I don't mind, it is an interesting challenge, but low and intermediate level learners must be aware of it. For the moment I listen to Thaipod101 which so far mostly have used "dictionary pronounciation".

Edited April 26, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[thailandsgreat]

This newscast is often above my level in vocab, expecially at this speed, but I can get a general idea of the subjects and pick out many words. Words I don't understand I could maybe find in a dictionary by entering phonetic.

 

These speakers use "dictionary pronounciation" as I hear. "a" goes to "e" (mostly before i?) but "ch" stays "ch" and the "r":s are almost rolling.

 

So what Thai people use isn't really the same pronounciation as the newscasters?

 

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[Lorry]

8 hours ago, thailandsgreat said:

what Thai people use isn't really the same pronounciation as the newscasters?

What native speakers of English use in daily life is not how a newscaster speaks. 

[thailandsgreat]

17 minutes ago, Lorry said:

What native speakers of English use in daily life is not how a newscaster speaks. 

But we have to compare. The difference in pronounciation between newscasters and some daily speakers of standard dialect is larger in Thai than in e.g. Spanish, Russian, Standard Chinese, French, German, Japanese ... 

 

English is spoken over such a wide area that one must define which standard to choose.

 

My level of Thai is just beginner/lower intermediate, but I stick to the opinion that what is considered "standard" can vary quite a bit. There must be some "Royal Thai" standard used in schools?

 

Can most Thai switch into "newscaster pronounciation" if they like? (and speak like they learnt in school and like they hear on TV every day?) Some interviewees in the Youtube also spoke pretty standard.

Edited April 26, 2023 by thailandsgreat

[ColeBOzbourne]

13 hours ago, Lorry said:

What native speakers of English use in daily life is not how a newscaster speaks. 

Some of these differences are dependent on how formal/informal the situation is. Before retirement I spoke as a professional when at work, and very casually when off work with family/friends. The differences in pronunciation and word choice also depend on the level of education of the speaker. 

[Lorry]

16 hours ago, thailandsgreat said:

difference in pronounciation between newscasters and some daily speakers of standard dialect is larger in Thai than in e.g. Spanish, Russian, Standard Chinese, French, German, Japanese ... 

 

Do you know all these languages well enough?

I know only 3 of them,  and beg to differ.

16 hours ago, thailandsgreat said:

Can most Thai switch into "newscaster pronounciation" if they like? (and speak like they learnt in school and like they hear on TV every day?)

Yes. Sounds very stilted, even fake, though.

Like I don't know any native speaker of English who uses RP in daily life.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Lorry