Spin Off From "story Of My Thai Citizenship Application" Thread

[Heng]

What I'm saying is that whoever mentioned 'xenophobia' wasn't correct. Mostly because there are plenty of foreigners who are living here permanently (and legally).

In other words, how many is your "plenty"?

It's more accurately 'discrimination' and just an 'unfair' system.

GO, HENG, GO! You are almost there! You have finally admitted that's discrimination and an unfair system. Now, what motivates that discrimination? What are the reasons for having, keeping and not changing/fighting that unfair system..?

Weird, why the whinging? Haven't you already taught me that that would have been lack of planning on your part and thus entirely your fault?

No idea how many that is, but they are certainly here and welcome (which discounts any xenophobia... where they wouldn't even be allowed to live here).

Not admitting anything, just telling you how it is. Who cares what motivates it? It's the status quo, why fight to change it? If a change is warranted (meaning way more than .00XX% of the populace would benefit from it), it'll have a chance of coming about.

I totally sympathize with the whingers, despite it being entirely their fault.

:D

[Heng]

I'd feel crap of course.

But, thats not the real question is it?

Yes it is, Samran. How would you FEEL dammit? How would you FEEL? Can you FEEL it? FEEL IT! FEEL IT! Black, white, red, brown! FEEL the vibration! Come on! Come on! Come on!

huh!

Edited August 8, 2007 by Heng

[asiaworld]

No idea how many that is, but they are certainly here and welcome (which discounts any xenophobia... where they wouldn't even be allowed to live here).

I totally sympathize with the whingers, despite it being entirely their fault.

:D

Hmm.. yup they are here, doesn't mean they are SO welcome... they are like semi illegals my friend <well, most of them ! >.. So now they are taking proposals for the new constitution , perfect timing me thinks, for some 'luk kreung' farang offspring to organise, & start demanding justice for their fathers...

Will it happen ... sadly me thinks no every happy thai citizen is too lazy to give sh*t unless it would be something that affects them directly , or got money in it .. ver few here would care to releive pain of others ..

[meemiathai]

Well it was something very trivial.

I see.

I actually thought you had something to say since you have been mentioning this "double pricing" in Italy (which we now know it wasn't such) several times already in several threads...

OK I said it was trivial. Then you go and say there is no double pricing? It is bloody double pricing, can you not see?

You want to be fair but you are not being fair and honest are you? Be honest! I am!

It is trivial according to me but a lot of farangs who complain here is going to make a big fuss out of it!

[Heng]

Hmm.. yup they are here, doesn't mean they are SO welcome... they are like semi illegals my friend <well, most of them ! >.. So now they are taking proposals for the new constitution , perfect timing me thinks, for some 'luk kreung' farang offspring to organise, & start demanding justice for their fathers...

Will it happen ... sadly me thinks no every happy thai citizen is too lazy to give sh*t unless it would be something that affects them directly , or got money in it .. ver few here would care to releive pain of others ..

'Welcome' is a relative term... they aren't detained, put into camps, deported at whim, etc. either. The luk kreung factor is always a possibility over the long term (with the main problem though being that after one generation, luk kreungs are often absorbed and not 1/2 anything any more... not to mention they themselves already have Thai citizen rights so for many they simply can't be arsed... and not to mention that their farang grandpa or grandmas are often dead by that time anyway), but descrimination often keeps them outside of any avenues of influence and their entrepreneurial drive/foundations are still in relative infancy to provide enough political and literal capital.

[meemiathai]

Why don't you answer me BAF, why should anyone in this world need a passport if everyone should be treated the same?

Why not let you and I regardless of nationality choose to live anywhere we like? No more country boundaries? Why do taxi

drivers in the UK earn more than doctors in some other countries?

How do you make things completely fair? When even fingers have different length!

[Heng]

Why don't you answer me BAF, why should anyone in this world need a passport if everyone should be treated the same?

Why not let you and I regardless of nationality choose to live anywhere we like? No more country boundaries? Why do taxi

drivers in the UK earn more than doctors in some other countries?

How do you make things completely fair? When even fingers have different length!

Note to humans on Earth: 'life isn't fair.'

Life is still good though.

[asiaworld]

Note to humans on Earth: 'life isn't fair.'

Life is still good though.

hmm.. so do you prefer to keep it that way even as PR in EU i have right to vote in local elections, if i need something i may come up to the local MP & propose something. Now as a citizen(even naturalised!), once i went to meet up our president & minister, when i wanted something to be done .. Don't tell me that thais stop giving sh*t abt. their parents, as soon as it stops being sanook enough .. sad for anyone married & with offsprings here

even it doesn't concerns me personally , i still like the change for good to happen, it will also make luk krengs position in the society much better ..

[samran]

it will also make luk krengs position in the society much better ..

like most of us are suffering.....not.

I'd go far as to say that if you are a luuk krung, you are are lucky as you can get just about.

[jumnien]

There are Senators and Thais appointed to high positions by the military who are luk kreung; it really doesn't seem that big of a deal as the paranoia on this thread would suggest.

[samran]

There are Senators and Thais appointed to high positions by the military who are luk kreung; it really doesn't seem that big of a deal as the paranoia on this thread would suggest.

senator meechai is one. Mum was Scottish, he was educated in OZ.

Former head of the Thai supreme court was a Sikh as I recall.

Dr Ammar Siamwalla of Indian extraction is a prominent economist.

A few ferang Khun Yings about. Big hair and all.

[meemiathai]

Farangs suffer most in thailand followed by the luk kreungs, I have heard from a reliable source.

Thaivisa I think it was!

[Heng]

There are Senators and Thais appointed to high positions by the military who are luk kreung; it really doesn't seem that big of a deal as the paranoia on this thread would suggest.

Even Thailand has its own Condi's, Colin's, and Barack's. There are even luk krung (and more if you count those who are less than 1/2 Thai) who have been voted in as representives. Even so, none of them are campaigning on any kind of foreigners' rights platforms though.

[jumnien]

The truth is that if life gets any easier for farangs to live here and gobs more farang wash up on the shore, many of the farang that live here will wish to move on to greener (farang-free) pastures. The Thais don't have nearly the aversion to farang as us farang do.

[Heng]

Note to humans on Earth: 'life isn't fair.'

Life is still good though.

hmm.. so do you prefer to keep it that way even as PR in EU i have right to vote in local elections, if i need something i may come up to the local MP & propose something. Now as a citizen(even naturalised!), once i went to meet up our president & minister, when i wanted something to be done .. Don't tell me that thais stop giving sh*t abt. their parents, as soon as it stops being sanook enough .. sad for anyone married & with offsprings here

even it doesn't concerns me personally , i still like the change for good to happen, it will also make luk krengs position in the society much better ..

I totally sympathize and feel sorry for starving Ugandans and falang visa runners, but I do indeed have other priorities (like my own family's long term well being). I wouldn't hesitate to drop in a few coins if there were collection boxes to help their cause at the local Foodland though.

[asiaworld]

There are Senators and Thais appointed to high positions by the military who are luk kreung; it really doesn't seem that big of a deal as the paranoia on this thread would suggest.

Even Thailand has its own Condi's, Colin's, and Barack's. There are even luk krung (and more if you count those who are less than 1/2 Thai) who have been voted in as representives. Even so, none of them are campaigning on any kind of foreigners' rights platforms though.

Yeah thats great to hear i never said luk kreung were not well off ( just that being a citizen does give you some power to apply ), quite few of their fathers aren't thou ...

[asiaworld]

but don't forget how most of it starts: extract below was copied ,pasted from another thread , and there are plenty more of similar cases ;

. I also have issues with the fact that I am unwelcome in Thailand even though married for 12 years, raising a family and have a legal marriage to a Thai who got instant permanent residence in my country plus a social security number, right of employment, etc. I get nothing of the sort from her country, just a critical eye and 90 day visa. I feel not so good about Thailand really, but as I had lived there for so long, speak the language and am tied to there, what can I do.

[asiaworld]

And another good one from the same thread; (sorry i don't know how to insert the link to another thread)

. Thailand does not welcome foreigners to start with, look at how this website is so popular, you need a huge resource just to figure out how to get legal residence in a country where you have a legal marriage! I have been married nearly 12 years now, with kids all born outside of Thailand (fortunately easy to get Thai passports for them) but as for me--not allowed more than 90 days visa. What an insult! People should be protesting this at the Thai consulates overseas, I have a mind to do that someday in fact. A friend of mine said he comes from Taiwan and the Taiwanese government is also very unfair to people who marry foreigners, not giving them residence in Taiwan. He said there have been some street protests on this fact.

In the meantime my wife can enjoy full right of employment and permanent residence in my country with a 10 year extension. Very easy for her. What Thailand does is not fair at all. As a matter of principle I will never buy land or invest there.

[BAF]

No idea how many that is,

Yes, it was clear...

but they are certainly here and welcome (which discounts any xenophobia... where they wouldn't even be allowed to live here).

They are "welcome" as long as they aren't more than 100 per nationality per year...

The rest of them isn't welcome at all, regardless of whether they are married to Thais, father Thai citizens etc. Here is where you could start to look for where the xenophobia is.

Not admitting anything, just telling you how it is. Who cares what motivates it?

Who said you should care? It's clear you and your countrymen don't.

Since you keep denying the xenophobia, I asked you what motivates that discrimination? What are the reasons for having, keeping and not changing/fighting that unfair system..?

It's the status quo, why fight to change it? If a change is warranted (meaning way more than .00XX% of the populace would benefit from it), it'll have a chance of coming about.

That's why my call for RECIPROCATION. That's the only way to motivate Thailand to change the rules, if we wait for LOS to change them because of the same humanitarian values and principles that drive Western immigration laws we will never see the change. Thailand doesn't share those supposedly "universal" values and principles which in reality are only Western...

RECIPROCATION means that "way more than .00XX% of the populace would benefit from it".

To make it ring home to you: RECIPROCATION means that either I would have a Thai passport or you wouldn't have a US one.

But don't worry about your Western passport, as you can see from the replies of the other farangs/barangs/baksidas/gwailos/matsalles/gaijins/kanos/etc here, your US passort is absolutely safe and I will never get a Thai passport.

[BAF]

OK I said it was trivial. Then you go and say there is no double pricing? It is bloody double pricing, can you not see?

You want to be fair but you are not being fair and honest are you? Be honest! I am!

It is trivial according to me but a lot of farangs who complain here is going to make a big fuss out of it!

Well, OK, if you think that was worth a reply: were they a regular thing or a one off? Were they some kind of promotion/advertisement? What did you mean by "locals" (local residents or Italians)? What kind of "proof" were they asking to hand those vouchers (IDs, passports ...)? What nightclub was it and when did it happen (I am going to e-mail them and ask them the details, I have never heard of free-drink vouchers for Italians only which would be, BTW, illegal...)?

[Heng]

They are "welcome" as long as they aren't more than 100 per nationality per year...

The rest of them isn't welcome at all, regardless of whether they are married to Thais, father Thai citizens etc. Here is where you could start to look for where the xenophobia is.

Since you keep denying the xenophobia, I asked you what motivates that discrimination? What are the reasons for having, keeping and not changing/fighting that unfair system..?

That's why my call for RECIPROCATION. That's the only way to motivate Thailand to change the rules, if we wait for LOS to change them because of the same humanitarian values and principles that drive Western immigration laws we will never see the change. Thailand doesn't share those supposedly "universal" values and principles which in reality are only Western...

RECIPROCATION means that "way more than .00XX% of the populace would benefit from it".

To make it ring home to you: RECIPROCATION means that either I would have a Thai passport or you wouldn't have a US one.

But don't worry about your Western passport, as you can see from the replies of the other farangs/barangs/baksidas/gwailos/matsalles/gaijins/kanos/etc here, your US passort is absolutely safe and I will never get a Thai passport.

Not worried at all.

As for what motivates descrimination or any kind of preferences, it can be any number of things. But in the end, it's likely not enough people care even to 'ask why.' Why don't certain airlines ever change their paint schemes? Some redo their livery at least once a decade. Shouldn't the other airlines be reciprocating? Is it fair that some airlines fork out the extra funds while some just pretend like 'the old paint scheme is just fine the way it is, thanks?' I'm certainly interested and would prefer continually changing paint schemes to add a little more color to travel, but overall who cares?

Good luck with your RECIPROCATION campaign though. Although in my opinion, it'd be a lot easier if you just jumped through the hoops, filled out the required forms, met the requirements and just get PR, citizenship, first class lounge access, or whatever it is that you're trying to get. Life is a bit too short for drawn out hopeless 'campaigns.'

edit: regarding the airline thing... I should add that I'd like the paint schemes changed every few years. Obviously the paint and maintainence overhead costs, new logo designs might be a bit of a stretch for the more cash poor airlines to do so much more often than that, if at all.

Edited August 8, 2007 by Heng

[BAF]

Why don't you answer me BAF, why should anyone in this world need a passport if everyone should be treated the same?

Why not let you and I regardless of nationality choose to live anywhere we like? No more country boundaries?

It's exactly what's happening, look at the trend: the European Union, NAFTA, ASEAN etc etc etc

It's slow and painful but that's the future.

How do you make things completely fair? When even fingers have different length!

When all the fingers are on the same hand!

(i.e. no more different sovereign countries: one world one administration)

[BAF]

As for what motivates descrimination or any kind of preferences, it can be any number of things.

So, you don't know. It's just that you are somehow sure it isn't xenophobia... It can't be. You and your crystal ball just know it.

But in the end, it's likely not enough people care even to 'ask why.' Why don't certain airlines ever change their paint schemes?

Thailand's reasons for its immigration laws and an airline's ("Thai"?) reasons to change its paint schemes... perfect similitude.

[asiaworld]

Well BAF guess we got all the answers we could from this thread . Nobody including your 'future children' gives rats arse

about mixed family predicaments in this country ! Good for all wise, who don't have thai spouses. And my deepest condolances to all who have . Wish none of you would be wheeled out of the country by your dear thai family members, when you can't jump the hoops !! i rest my case

[BAF]

The truth is that if life gets any easier for farangs to live here and gobs more farang wash up on the shore, many of the farang that live here will wish to move on to greener (farang-free) pastures. The Thais don't have nearly the aversion to farang as us farang do.

Between a fairy dream and another, have you ever asked yourself why Thailand gets the kind of "farangs" it does? Ever asked yourself if the fact that it is a corrupt, xenophobic, racist, discriminatory, classist, dangerous, dirty, noisy, polluted developing country with motocys racing on the potholed sidewalks and unsecured high voltage wires hanging a few feet over your head might have something to do with it?

[Heng]

As for what motivates descrimination or any kind of preferences, it can be any number of things.

So, you don't know. It's just that you are somehow sure it isn't xenophobia... It can't be. You and your crystal ball just know it.

But in the end, it's likely not enough people care even to 'ask why.' Why don't certain airlines ever change their paint schemes?

Thailand's reasons for its immigration laws and an airline's ("Thai"?) reasons to change its paint schemes... perfect similitude.

Again, I'm saying the term doesn't match the situation.

Well, for myself I usually fly Singapore Airlines, Thai, and EVA... also a frequent flyer on Southwest -grew up on the brown, orange, and red livery... and now am loving the blue/purple trim they've added to it- if I'm stateside. EVA is still relatively new to the game, but I do feel their simple 'shipping company' type logo is getting a bit dated. They, along with Singapore Airlines, with their huge cash reserves can certainly afford a new livery. TG however in my opinion can not. They're all over the place with their new livery (which IMO is indeed attractive... although I think if they were going to do it right they should have gotten rid of the 30 year old 'jumpee' flower/flying penis/vagina complete with ovaries combo), with the old paint scheme still being flown, along with the Suwannahongsa scheme being flown.... with no plans to make it uniform one way or the other. Consider how it's a barely profitable operation, I think they should go semi-paintless like American Airlines. A few hundred less pounds of paint on every single plane flying around the clock would certainly save quite a bit on fuel and would go along well with HM the King's 'por piang' economy theme.

Edited August 8, 2007 by Heng

[meemiathai]

Why don't you answer me BAF, why should anyone in this world need a passport if everyone should be treated the same?

Why not let you and I regardless of nationality choose to live anywhere we like? No more country boundaries?

It's exactly what's happening, look at the trend: the European Union, NAFTA, ASEAN etc etc etc

It's slow and painful but that's the future.

How do you make things completely fair? When even fingers have different length!

When all the fingers are on the same hand!

(i.e. no more different sovereign countries: one world one administration)

So it is the same in thailand!

It's slow and painful but that's the future.

[BAF]

So it is the same in thailand!

It's slow and painful but that's the future.

Yes but this thread is about the present and the foreseeable future. I'm not that much bothered, at the moment, to think about Thailand's immigration laws affecting my great-grandchildren's offspring...

[BAF]

Well BAF guess we got all the answers we could from this thread . Nobody including your 'future children' gives rats arse about mixed family predicaments in this country !

Q.E.D.

Good for all wise, who don't have thai spouses. And my deepest condolances to all who have . Wish none of you would be wheeled out of the country by your dear thai family members, when you can't jump the hoops !!

Yes, the only other way is to get the hel_l out of Thailand and move to a civilized country.

Until LOS changes its ways, Thailand is bound to remain a great (dangerous) PLAYGROUND. Nothing else and nothing serious.

[meemiathai]

OK I said it was trivial. Then you go and say there is no double pricing? It is bloody double pricing, can you not see?

You want to be fair but you are not being fair and honest are you? Be honest! I am!

It is trivial according to me but a lot of farangs who complain here is going to make a big fuss out of it!

Well, OK, if you think that was worth a reply: were they a regular thing or a one off? Were they some kind of promotion/advertisement? What did you mean by "locals" (local residents or Italians)? What kind of "proof" were they asking to hand those vouchers (IDs, passports ...)? What nightclub was it and when did it happen (I am going to e-mail them and ask them the details, I have never heard of free-drink vouchers for Italians only which would be, BTW, illegal...)?

It was in the ski resort in turin(as I said) and I of course do not remember the name. And sorry I did not ask the big guy at the entrance "what do you mean by locals?". I just saw him holding them and giving them to people who went in and when we asked what that was he said free drinks, and when we asked for them he said it is for locals. And god knows what locals mean.

Illegal? I bet the mafia is illegal too. So what?

And let me tell you, farang waitress are not quite happy serving Asians. Maybe I am wrong but try asking your wife.

In 1994/5, I went into a shop with a chinese girlfriend in Rome and the lady(bitch) inside ignored us when we ask for her help.

That same time, we were arriving in the airport of Rome in the very morning, about 40 of us all chinese were at a queue at the immigration, we were the only people there at that time and one officer was serving us. An airport policeman with machine gun on his hands saw me and must have thought, what the he11 is this farang doing queuing together with this bunch of china men, he came forward to me and asked me for my passport. I handed him my passport which at that time was a BNO(British National Overseas) which everyone was holding the same. He had a look and I am sure he had no bloody idea what that was but he just led me through. How do you explain it? Should I have felt privileged?