Draft Charter Ready For Vote

[sriracha john]

I admit I could be wrong as I don’t know what all the government ad’s say and some could be bias to vote yes.

from your cite JK , just passed where you ceased to cut 'n paste ...............

He claimed that the Public Health Ministry had bribed their staff by paying 300 baht to participate in a campaign supporting the charter, which will be organised on Monday.

and yet, just above that... he says in regards to CNS claims that TRT is bribing people...

Adisorn Piangket, a leader of the Thai Rak Thai group also called on the CNS not to look down on people and think that they can be bought by money.

so now, in regards to the PH ministry, is he looking down on these people and think that they can be bought by money???

the term "Two-faced" comes to mind....

Edited August 11, 2007 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

It's completely absurd to think that only Thaksin loyalists don't want to approve the military's constitution. Read the newspapers and you'll read many who dislike Thaksin's administration but do not in any way support the military overthrow or its attempts to dominate Thai politics indefinitely.

I don't think you will find "many". They are vocal, however, and press is eager to interview them, but if their Bangkok rallies is anything to go by, the numbers are in hundreds, not even thousands.

I think nowadays, they'd be very pleased to get hundreds...

UDD supporters campaign against charter

About 30 supporters of the United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship campaigned against a draft constitution in front of Central Ladprao shopping mall on Saturday afternoon.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=120800

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I understand that by comparison, the moo yang pushcart across the street from the Central Ladprao shopping mall attracted 35 people.

[jumnien]

I admit I could be wrong as I don’t know what all the government ad’s say and some could be bias to vote yes.

from your cite JK , just passed where you ceased to cut 'n paste ...............

He claimed that the Public Health Ministry had bribed their staff by paying 300 baht to participate in a campaign supporting the charter, which will be organised on Monday.

and yet, just above that... he says in regards to CNS claims that TRT is bribing people...

Adisorn Piangket, a leader of the Thai Rak Thai group also called on the CNS not to look down on people and think that they can be bought by money.

so now, in regards to the PH ministry, is he looking down on these people and think that they can be bought by money???

the term "Two-faced" comes to mind....

This is one time we agree 100%, that CNS-TRT are two faces of the same evil coin!

[John K]

He certainly sounds like a person who has lost touch with reality. I can see now why he is a Thaksin follower.

[Mid]

EDITORIAL

Open up the referendum

snip

The question is irrelevant, however, for the powers-that-be. Linking the alleged vote-buying attempt - or any other "undercurrent activities" - to the TRT remnants will serve their aim of showing deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in a bad light. The fact that Mr Thaksin has urged Thai people to vote against the draft constitution is no justification for the powers-that-be to try to suppress everyone who campaigns against the charter.

snip

The Post Publishing Public Co

[hammered]

EDITORIAL

Open up the referendum

snip

The question is irrelevant, however, for the powers-that-be. Linking the alleged vote-buying attempt - or any other "undercurrent activities" - to the TRT remnants will serve their aim of showing deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in a bad light. The fact that Mr Thaksin has urged Thai people to vote against the draft constitution is no justification for the powers-that-be to try to suppress everyone who campaigns against the charter.

snip

The Post Publishing Public Co

Not a bad editorial, which would have been very good if the practice of vote buying was actually condemned as well. Had a good discussion over breakfast with a group of Thai people about this editorial today.

[Mid]

Buses, taxis warned

Published on August 12, 2007

Pro- and anti-charter camps hit the streets in last-minute campaigning

snip

Land Transport Department deputy director-general Chairat Sanguansue warned bus and taxi drivers that displaying advertising messages from charter opponents on their vehicles was breaking the law.

Chairat said drivers needed department permission to do so. The law was designed to "maintain peace and order", he said.

"'Vote No' messages influence the public. It's illegal because it's considered publicity without permission and is against the profession and passenger safety," he added. He did not say how it could affect passenger safety.

"Right now officials are seeking cooperation from bus and taxi drivers. If they fail to observe the law they will be prosecuted."

snip

nationmultimedia.com

[Martin]

'Plus' said (in post # 240):

"As usual Thais let poo yais decide what's best for them, and pooyais then battle for supporters.

Democracy is simply incompatible with Thai politics."

From my viewpoint, democracy depends on getting a good standard of education in the whole populace, and equally it depends on getting a fire-in-the-belly concern for democracy amongst a sizeable minority, who then act with the courage of their convictions and carry the great majority along with them.

Unfortunately, countries that got furthest along towards democracy haven't been a good adverisement for it of late.

In particular, the actions of the USA and the UK in Iraq have been a real tarnishing of the escutcheon of the advocates of democracy.

For Thailand, there is a long haul ahead to get to the stage when the vast majority feel they should think for themselves and make individual decisions on which pooyai to support (the Labour Party candidate,the Conservative...etc on the ballot paper) and that those pooyais themselves all care about democracy,regardless of their political stances.

However, progress on that long haul may be gathering pace. When I see not-very-large cities like Khon Kaen and Mahasarakan displaying huge numbers of university students (and reflect on what may happen in the area of governance that we are not allowed to discuss), I think that we may see much progress within a generation.

Quite a few more Constitutions may come and go, though, before we see a general resolution to make one work (i.e. before we see the blossoming of the spirit of democracy).

Somebody once made a shrewd observation when s/he observed that it is the evil in mankind that makes democracy necessary, but the good in mankind makes it possible.

Between 'possible'and 'actual' lies a rocky road.

The next step comes within the next fortnight.

[John K]

The though occurred to me that there may be same payroll problem buying votes as there was at a recent rally. All of Thaksin’s accounts are being monitored on a daily basis. Huge cash withdrawals may be difficult to make.

[John K]

The talk on this charter has been mostly from Bangkok and north, has anyone how this new charter is being received in the south, and particularly the deep south?

[John K]

Campaign in Northeast to reject charter, Democrats claim

Democrat Party deputy leader Witoon Nambutr, who is in charge of northeastern provinces, said the group behind the anti-Constitution draft movements use number of voters who vote "no" in the referendum or who fail to cast votes to rank the candidate-to-be in the provinces.

Those who campaign against the Constitution draft would give "grade A" to the candidates-to-be in the provinces people most reject the draft, and the candidates-to-be would be likely to get most financial support from the group. The candidates-to-be will be seen as influential and having large network.

The movements against the draft include distribution of t-shirts with messages "We Vote No," and "Thaksin Lovers Reject Dictatorship", Witoon said.

Moreover, the group pays Bt200 to voters and told them not to vote. Otherwise, it pays Bt300 for voters to vote against the Constitution draft, he said.

The provinces with most vote-buying include Buri Ram, Surin and Si Sa Ket, he said.

Kalasin Election Commission chairman Prasit Kotchakote said the movements against the charter draft had been more aggressive with the old power clique distributing stickers and messages through speeches by local leaders. The messages were distorted from facts and the draft.

Commander of Chiang Rai Military Province Maj Gen Kanon Boonriew said officials tried to prevent the flow of the money from a famous casino reported to be used for vote-buying against the draft.

He said the casino belonged to a close friend of a former minister and local MP.

"There still are attempts to bring the money for the conduct (vote-buying against the charter draft). (Military) officials haven't been ignoring but cooperating with officers from the Provincial Administration Department in watching the movements closely. We have some measures at least to make the conduct harder," he said.

The Nation

[John K]

Opponents of charter 'buy votes'

Thai Rak Thai group denies claims as Buddhists end protests over draft

Published on August 13, 2007

The Democrat Party warned yesterday that opponents of the draft constitution were turning the Northeast into a campaign stronghold in their bid to defeat the charter.

They were offering financial incentives for votes against the constitution, too, it alleged.

However, the Thai Rak Thai group - which commands considerable support in the region - said the claims were concocted by the government because it feared a growing trend against the document.

In the meantime, Buddhist organisations and monks yesterday announced an end to a protracted protest against the draft, following concern expressed by Her Majesty the Queen.

The groups had vowed to campaign for the rejection of the draft after the Constitution Drafting Assembly refused to adopt a proposal to enshrine Buddhism as the national religion.

They were to collect 50,000 signatures to propose an amendment to the charter.

Her Majesty the Queen said during her birthday speech delivered on Saturday that she disagreed with a constitution enshrining a national religion.

She said Buddhism was beyond the political arena, where mistakes can be made. Religion should not be mixed with politics, she said.

Organisation of National Buddhists president Thongchai Kuasakul said it would heed Her Majesty's advice, the Thai News Agency reported yesterday. "We should take Her Majesty's speech as a guide," he said.

Buddhism Protection Centre secretary-general Phrathep Wisutthikavi said it would halt its campaign because it did not want to worry Her Majesty. He said monks would find other ways to strengthen Buddhism, especially through their role in society.

Democrat deputy leader Witoon Nambutr - who is in charge of Northeast provinces - believed anti-constitution activists generating significant voting against the charter or abstentions would be considered by the movement as influential and could receive support from it in the forthcoming election.

Those assembling the greatest opposition will receive more financial support for their election campaigns, he asserted.

The movement against the draft has handed out T-shirts

and leaflets carrying the messages "We Vote No," and "Thaksin Supporters Reject Dictatorship", Witoon said.

The group is paying Bt200 for voters to abstain and Bt300 to vote no, he alleged. He asserted the most intense vote buying was in Buri Ram, Surin and Si Sa Ket.

Many hard-core Thai Rak Thai supporters are in the North and Northeast.

Meanwhile, Kalasin Election Commission chairman Prasit Kotchakote said the movement against the draft was aggressive - distributing materials and arranging speeches by local leaders. The messages distorted the draft, he said.

The Army commander in Chiang Rai, Maj-General Kanon Boonriew, said it was trying to prevent cash from a casino entering Thailand for use in vote buying.

He said the "casino belonged to a close friend of a former minister and local member of Parliament".

"There still are attempts to bring the money for [vote buying] in. Officials haven't been ignoring this. They are cooperating with officers from the Provincial Administration Department in watching these movements. We have preventative measures," he added.

He said leaders of the anti-charter movement included local businessmen and former politicians.

In Chachoengsao, government referendum-awareness campaign banners were defaced with spray-painted Xs.

Interior Minister Aree Wongsearaya yesterday played down the campaign.

There is no evidence to charge campaigners with, he said, adding officials were keeping an eye on developments.

Bancha Khaengkhan,

Jeerawan Prasomsap,

Sontanaporn Injan

The Nation

[Mid]

who vote "no" in the referendum or who fail to cast votes

why are these linked ???

[John K]

I guess to keep the vote below 50%

after reading the last two news clippings, I think it is safe to say the “Thai rak Thai” has now officially become the “Thai Rak lie.”

It is very sad to see that they follow their father with such misrepresentations if the truth, but that is all they have left. Once this document is approved the feeding party for them is over and the Bar is out of stock.

They have no dignity left apparently

[hammered]

The though occurred to me that there may be same payroll problem buying votes as there was at a recent rally. All of Thaksin’s accounts are being monitored on a daily basis. Huge cash withdrawals may be difficult to make.

There is enough black money floating around in Thailand and politicians have been known to dabble in the black economy. There will be plenty spent in the election itself. You probably have to be a bit careful moving it around though. You wouldnt want the army seizing it.

Thaksin and his extended family are probably good for a bit of credit, and then there are business deals. If/when he returns there will no doubt be rewards of one kind or another for those who stuck with him. And there are a lot of powerful figures who will stump up their own cash to avoid being left out.

[Mid]

PM, public symbolicly march kingdom to democracy

Monday 13 August 2007 12:12:59 PM (GMT+7:00)

snip

Thailand will hold its first referendum on the draft charter which was passed by the Constitution Drafting Assembly (CDA) on July 6.

A recent opinion poll found most people, particularly in the southern region, are likely to vote in favour of the draft charter in this month's referendum. About 77 per cent of respondents would accept the charter while 22 per cent would accept it.

snip

Sigmund Freud

the man would have had a field day .....................................

[Mid]

Tens of thousands march in Thai referendum push

08-13-2007, 07h11

BANGKOK (AFP)

Ten of thousands of people gather at the Royal Plaza in Bangkok to hold a march with Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont to encourage people to vote in a constitutional referendum in central Bangkok, 13 August.

(AFP)

snip

They argue the new basic law would weaken elected officials while giving more power to bureaucrats, including the military. But they have struggled to get their message out, with campaigning tilted in the government's favour.

A new law threatens 10 years in prison for anyone who "misrepresents" the charter, while martial law imposed after the coup remains in effect across half of Thailand.

Martial law makes campaigning difficult by banning large assemblies, and Surayud told reporters after the rally that the government has no plans to lift it.

"Maintaining martial law in those provinces does not affect their right to vote," he said.

snip

2007 Agence France Presse.

I'm looking for a vehicle, I'm looking for a ride

I'm looking for a party, I'm looking for a side

I'm looking for the treason that I knew in '65

Beware the savage jaw

Of 1984

David Bowie

[John K]

The 10 year in jail idea I think is a good idea, and it should be expanded to cover any vote on deliberate misrepresentation to change votes. In the states they have a truth in advertizing law, I can’t see why that can’t be applied here.

It would require a neutral spokesman to outline things to the public. That person(s) would be nominated by the political parties to be the spokesman. That way it keeps him honest.

[Mid]

nothing on Sigmund JK ?

[Mid]

PM, public symbolicly march kingdom to democracy

Posted: 2007/08/13

From: Mathaba

snip

A recent opinion poll found most people, particularly in the southern region, are likely to vote in favour of the draft charter in this month's referendum. About 77 per cent of respondents would accept the charter while 22 per cent would accept it.

snip

[hammered]

PM, public symbolicly march kingdom to democracy

Posted: 2007/08/13

From: Mathaba

snip

A recent opinion poll found most people, particularly in the southern region, are likely to vote in favour of the draft charter in this month's referendum. About 77 per cent of respondents would accept the charter while 22 per cent would accept it.

snip

Another nice catch

[John K]

nothing on Sigmund JK ?

There is not much to say. In General, the people that are voting yes are doing so for the country. The people that are encouraging people to vote yes or no are doing it for themselves. The people that are under educated and can’t understand the charter will either accept a bribe or listen to someone they can trust depending on what the feel has the greater weight.

There is no need for psychoanalyst here, people will always do what the feel is best for themselves. Their action also depends on how future looking they can think. If you don’t understand step ‘A’ then you can completely forget about step ‘B.’

I personally see this document allowing more cash to flow to the people as the ‘wanna be corrupt politicians’ are kept on a short leash.

As I said before, It does come down to someone putting things in a format that the under educated can understand. If that is done it will take much of the wind out of the sails of the people that are encouraging others.

[Mid]

not once did you address a No vote ....................................

and Sigmund was in direct reference to the highlighted blue

[Mid]

PM clarifies comment on charter voting

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont has come out to rectify public misconception of the draft charter, saying that it is not a political choice.

“The draft charter does not represent which party you support,” he stressed.

snip

Hallelujah

[ColPyat]

I personally see this document allowing more cash to flow to the people as the ‘wanna be corrupt politicians’ are kept on a short leash.

Kept on a short leach by equally corrupt Generals and Bureaucrats, known to be riddled by departmental rivalries under the civil service and class rivalries and factionalism in the armed forces, who can't even be elected out of office if they are overstepping lines.

As to policy corruption, while most social programs have been scrapped or lost huge budgets, military budget since the coup has been rising enormously.

As to rigged or dirty elections, the referendum so far has been dirtier than anything that TRT has done. State intimidation of activists advocating a "No" vote, millions of tax payers money spent on accepting the new constitution, arrests of activists, intimidation, unfounded accusations of vote buying (ironic, while the junta is spending vast sums on pressuring a "yes" vote), media influencing worse than Thaksin has ever done, etc.

Here two pieced critical of the referendum, on by Giles Ungpakorn, and the next by the only Nation writer that sometimes can get a critical piece through:

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The 19th August Constitutional Referendum Process is Undemocratic

It is now obvious that the military junta have no intention of conducting a clean and democratic referendum on their new constitution. While the government is shamelessly spending millions of the public's baht on propaganda urging the population to vote "yes" and accept the constitution, those who are opposed to it are prevented from campaigning properly by arrests, threats and a total lack of access in the media. The referendum cannot therefore be regarded as democratic, according to any international or Thai standards. Regardless of the outcome of this dirty referendum, the Peoples Movement must continue to campaign for real political reform, social justice and the building of a welfare state from progressive taxation.

It is necessary to remind ourselves that those in the Peoples Alliance for Democracy (P.A.D.) and those intellectuals and academics who welcomed the coup as the "only way to get rid of Thaksin's authoritarianism", used the excuse of a "dirty election" on the 2nd April 2007 to justify the coup and to justify collaborating with the junta. The present referendum is infinitely more dirty and undemocratic compared to the 2 nd of April election, which was a kind of referendum on the Thaksin government. At that time we and many others were able to campaign openly for a "no" vote against Thaksin without any threats or hindrance. The press carried the views of those who opposed the government. Yet we hear no protests from the ex-members of the P.A.D. or from the pro-coup intellectuals about the way the junta's referendum is being conducted.

We would really prefer to boycott this undemocratic referendum. Yet, the current to boycott among the millions who oppose the junta's constitution is very small. Therefore we shall stand with the majority and urge people to vote "No". Never the less, if the referendum results in a "yes" majority, the outcome can have little legitimacy.

There are many reasons for voting against the junta's constitution apart from the fact that the whole drafting process was undemocratic, resulting from a coup and lacking any public participation. Despite the lies by junta supporters, the constitution decreases the democratic space while increasing the power of the unelected military, judiciary and bureaucracy. There has been no significant progress over the 1997 constitution on issues related to gender rights, community and ethnic rights, trade union rights and the issue of a free media. The constitution is even more neo-liberal and pro-market, increasing the role of big business, privatisation and forcing governments to cut public welfare spending, while increasing the military budget. Where it mentions welfare or health, the clauses are more backward than the existing system. Finally, there is no road to peace and justice for the South built into the constitution. None of this is surprising. The junta's drafters and their supporters are in no way interested in true political reform, democracy and social justice. There sole aim is to block the re-election of Thai Rak Thai and to decrease the democratic space because they do not think that the poor should have the right to vote. This is why they have ignored all the important proposals for political reform which many of us in the Peoples Movement have been discussing from long before the time of the coup.

The struggle for democracy, social justice and peace must continue. A "No" vote is only an important part of this struggle against dictatorial powers and injustice in Thailand.

Giles Ji Ungpakorn

On behalf of the Peoples Coalition Party

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http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/08/13...cs_30044769.php

Charter's military-related articles still raise questions

This is the second in a series on the new charter, in a countdown to the August 19 referendum

Published on August 13, 2007

The difference between two controversial but crucial articles pertaining to the military in the junta-sponsored draft constitution is that one became headline news and the other has barely been mentioned.

The one that's been attracting attention is Article 309, which grants de facto amnesty for the junta's past and, arguably, even future actions. The article that got little notice in the news media is Article 77, which states that it is the state's duty to "adequately" provide "modern" arms and armed forces.

The words "modern" and "adequate" didn't appear in the 1997 constitution, and critics like Assoc Prof Prasit Pipawattapanich, from Thammasat University's Law Faculty, pointed out that it is quite the opposite of what Article 83 says. Article 83 states that the state must follow the "sufficiency" policy when it comes to arms purchase, but it is "adequacy", or phieng phor in the Thai, and not "sufficiency" or phor phieng that is preferred.

There was virtually no debate on the issue when the junta-appointed Constitution Drafting Committee (CDC) penned it, before the junta-appointed Constitution Drafting Assembly (CDA) speedily approved it, also without any debate or objection.

When The Nation recently asked Kiatichai Pongpanich, a member of the CDA, if this approval would lead to a further increase in the arms budget, he merely said that there was nothing "irregular" about it.

Yet material published by the anti-coup and anti-junta-sponsored-draft-charter group noted that the annual increase in percentage figures of armed forces expenditure over the past decade was never above 10 per cent. But the figure has risen by 66.4 per cent since last September. "This is the cost of the coup," the September 19 Network Against Coup stated categorically in one of its booklets.

On the much-publicised controversy over the issue of amnesty to the junta granted in Article 309, which is the last article under the draft charter, another Thammasat University law lecturer Vorachaet Phakeerat said that having such an article simply undermined the whole "principle" of the constitution being supreme law.

Vorachaet reasoned that the charter itself cannot allow an "unconstitutional act" to be regarded as "constitutional" while still wanting to have the charter considered sacred by others.

Prasit, meanwhile, pointed out that the de facto amnesty was not retroactive, but perversely covered future actions of the junta which may otherwise be "unconstitutional" even after the draft charter comes into effect - provided it is endorsed in the referendum.

Many opponents pointed out that such an article sets a wrong precedent and could encourage more coups in the future.

Just last week, junta leader Sonthi Boonyaratglin continued toying with the idea of entering electoral politics and said there was nothing to be afraid of since he had been involved in something a lot more risky - staging a coup to oust Thaksin Shinawatra.

Prasit went on to speculate that this may also have something to do with the unfinished probe against Thaksin's alleged ill-gotten wealth that may not be completed in time for the elections. Those examining Thaksin's assets have been hand picked by the Council for National Security (CNS) itself.

Supporters of the draft charter say the junta may have already granted itself amnesty in the 2006 interim charter written by the coup-makers themselves.

As witnessed by the recent one-time televised debate, both Articles 309 and 77 are not something proponents and writers of the junta-sponsored draft charter are proud of.

Meanwhile, their opponents are quick to claim that some appalling form of conflict of interest is at work here and that there are no checks and balances whatsoever when it comes to the increasing role of the junta in particular and the military in general.

Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

[LaoPo]

Commander of Chiang Rai Military Province Maj Gen Kanon Boonriew said officials tried to prevent the flow of the money from a famous casino reported to be used for vote-buying against the draft.

He said the casino belonged to a close friend of a former minister and local MP.

Famous Casino ?

I thought there were no casino's in Thailand.

LaoPo

[rychrde]

Commander of Chiang Rai Military Province Maj Gen Kanon Boonriew said officials tried to prevent the flow of the money from a famous casino reported to be used for vote-buying against the draft.

He said the casino belonged to a close friend of a former minister and local MP.

Famous Casino ?

I thought there were no casino's in Thailand.

LaoPo

true, but they are littered around Thailand's borders, often in no-mans-land.

seems easy enough to get cash in and out with the right connections.

rych

[John K]

not once did you address a No vote ....................................

and Sigmund was in direct reference to the highlighted blue

Mid;

I saw that as a typo and ignored it. As for a no vote, well that more or less insures continuing chaos and I don’t think that is an option people want to see. The Thais want to see an end to all of this and get on with their lives. I read that in their faces when I go out.

[Martin]

As mentioned a few days ago by 'thaigene2', Giles Ji Ungpakorn is the author of a very-readable little book about the background to the coup, as seen by a champion of the downtrodden against their downtreaders.

Entitled "A coup for the rich", it is ISBN 974-88225-5-9. The price is 200 baht, or you can download it as a pdf document at the cost of 144 sheets of paper and the ink.

He writes persuasively of the lack of the spirit of democracy amongst the Bangkok middle classes. Since the majority of them, or their parents, have climbed the 'ladder of education' up from being amongst the downtrodden, their stance is well described by that old, wry Northern England observation: "You can pull up the gangplank now, Jack. I'm on deck."

However, I would still maintain that we will live in interesting times as another generation grow up.

Bangkok cannot absorb more than a fraction of the new graduates coming through Thailand's universities.

The possible knock-on effects are intriguing.

Maybe one will be the growth of spirit and determination that their representatives, when sent to parliament, shall act in both the letter and spirit of the Constitution as regards corruption.

[ColPyat]

not once did you address a No vote ....................................

and Sigmund was in direct reference to the highlighted blue

Mid;

I saw that as a typo and ignored it. As for a no vote, well that more or less insures continuing chaos and I don’t think that is an option people want to see. The Thais want to see an end to all of this and get on with their lives. I read that in their faces when I go out.

The chaos will prevail, no matter what, and it will get much worse in the future.

Regardless of acceptance or refusal of the new constitution - there will be a constitution, and one that will contain what the military wants to. And there will be elections.

The only question here for the military is finding some excuse of popular legitimacy for the coup and their future role. The problem though here is that the enormous pressures and intimidation tactics far beyond what Thaksin has ever done will not give the military an acceptable legitimacy in any case.