Subway Vigilante Who Choked Jordan Neely to Be Arrested on Manslaughter Charge

[Will B Good]

1 minute ago, vandeventer said:

It wasn't the marine's intension but it happen. Maybe if there were cops on the subway things would be different.

True.....he'd be full of bullet holes.

[Hanaguma]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Thankfully the court will only consider what did take place, not the fantasy stuff you are indulging in.

Not a fantasy at all.  Based on the video of the situation, and what I know about fighting.  Anyone who has any training in submission style combat would agree.  You dont release a hold until your opponent is out. 

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Care to explain?

A stream of victim blaming.

 

The killer had zero knowledge of any of his victims history, medical or criminal.

And kilns was not ‘doing the right thing’.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, Hanaguma said:

Not a fantasy at all.  Based on the video of the situation, and what I know about fighting.  Anyone who has any training in submission style combat would agree.  You dont release a hold until your opponent is out. 

What does the law say? 

[vandeventer]

11 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

True.....he'd be full of bullet holes.

Maybe not but he would be electrically charged for a long long time.

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, vandeventer said:

It wasn't the marine's intension but it happen. Maybe if there were cops on the subway things would be different.

I agree it wasn't intended.

His problem now is about the details of the New York law and whether the jury instructions allow considering intentions.

If not it might be smarter to take a plea deal.

Believe it or not I have sympathy for the accused. No good deed goes unpunished.

[Hanaguma]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

A stream of victim blaming.

 

The killer had zero knowledge of any of his victims history, medical or criminal.

And kilns was not ‘doing the right thing’.

 

Not victim blaming at all. IF New York had a functioning mental health department he might still be alive, and getting treatment.  IF New York had sufficient policing on the subway, the guy might have been taken into custody safely. 

 

"The killer" knew he was facing a deranged man making threats, throwing garbage at people, screaming.  What was he supposed to do- let innocent people get hurt? Just slink away?  

[bamnutsak]

Medical examiner rules Jordan Neely’s death a homicide after subway choking

 

https://nypost.com/2023/05/03/medical-examiner-rules-jordan-neelys-death-a-homicide-after-subway-choking/

 

 

Freelance journalist Juan Alberto Vazquez, who recorded the footage, said the men were in that position for "at least 15 minutes."

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/05/06/jordan-neely-chokehold-death-daniel-penny-attorney-defends-actions/70190821007/

 

 

Extended video shows Daniel Penny appearing to ignore a person who warned 'you're going to kill him' while he had Jordan Neely in a chokehold

 

https://news.yahoo.com/extended-video-shows-daniel-penny-043014405.html

 

 

 

[placeholder]

11 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Not victim blaming at all. IF New York had a functioning mental health department he might still be alive, and getting treatment.  IF New York had sufficient policing on the subway, the guy might have been taken into custody safely. 

 

"The killer" knew he was facing a deranged man making threats, throwing garbage at people, screaming.  What was he supposed to do- let innocent people get hurt? Just slink away?  

How about call 911? Or notify the conductor?

[bamnutsak]

Excuse me sir, how many times have you been arrested?

 

Twenty-five.

 

OK, I don't have to kill you, today.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Just slink away?  

This one.

 

But maybe this is a trick question?

[Will B Good]

I guess this all comes down to timings and witnesses.......

 

if he held him in a choke hold and released him when he was unconscious then........?

 

if he held him and held him and held him.......?  

Edited May 12, 2023 by Will B Good

[Sheryl]

Just now, Will B Good said:

I guess this all comes down to timings and witnesses.......

 

if he held in a choke hold and released him when he was unconscious then........?

 

if he held him and held him and held him.......?  

It is stated by witnesses that he held him, with pressure on his neck, for at least 15 minutes,. And continued despite onlookers warning he was killing the man.

 

The original take-down is not what is at issue here. It is  the continued application of lethal force after the man was subdued.

 

 

[Will B Good]

Just now, Sheryl said:

It is stated by witnesses that he held him, with pressure on his neck, for at least 15 minutes,. And continued despite onlookers warning he was killing the man.

 

 

Exactly!!!!!

 

Not as others are saying "you have to hold a man till you know he's not getting back up"!

 

Not sure that would require 15 mins.

[Chomper Higgot]

19 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Not victim blaming at all. IF New York had a functioning mental health department he might still be alive, and getting treatment.  IF New York had sufficient policing on the subway, the guy might have been taken into custody safely. 

 

"The killer" knew he was facing a deranged man making threats, throwing garbage at people, screaming.  What was he supposed to do- let innocent people get hurt? Just slink away?  

I’ll wait for the trial to hear what the killer says he knew.

[Sheryl]

19 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I agree it wasn't intended.

His problem now is about the details of the New York law and whether the jury instructions allow considering intentions.

If not it might be smarter to take a plea deal.

Believe it or not I have sympathy for the accused. No good deed goes unpunished.

Since he has been charged only with second degree manslaughter, intentions are not at issue.

 

Only whether he was reckless in what he did.

 

Second degree manslaughter does not imply any intent to kill.  Quite the contrary,

[Hanaguma]

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

How about call 911? Or notify the conductor?

Kinda hard to do in the middle of the situation.  

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Kinda hard to do in the middle of the situation.  

Kinda easy to do it before. No indication that it was an emergency. Also pulling the emergency cord on the train

[2009]

6 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

I am concerned the democrat's attempts to fool he public into thinking this guy was lynched by a racist because he was impersonating MJ very misleading. Way more than misleading in fact. Ms Pressley should have shown footage of the thug threatening the public, seems they just can't help being inflammatory.

 

 

Yes, that's the agenda these days.

 

And black on white violence gets next to no coverage now in mainstream media.

 

They even cropped out the black man helping the white vigilante in some newspapers so they could say there was a racial element.

 

There was a black man holding Jordan's hands to restrain him while he was being choked. They cropped that out.

 

And the vigilante put him him the recovery position afterwards and tried to wake him up once he had been subdued. That part didn't get a mention in many newspapers either.

[Hanaguma]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Kinda easy to do it before. No indication that it was an emergency. Also pulling the emergency cord on the train

Yeah, sure.  "Hey crazy guy!  Wanna take a rest from the shouting and throwing things and threatening people? I'm on the phone with the cops. Thanks!"

[bignok]

I've used headlocks. 3 or 4 minutes should be enough.

 

Should be guards or police on trains if bad though.

[Hanaguma]

This story from the Daily Mail shows an interesting timeline;

 

2:25 first call to 911

2:27 two more calls reporting threats and weapons

2:29 call regarding a fight in progress

2:30 Police arrive and start to work on Penny

2:45 Fire department arrives

 

I am wondering where the "15 minute chokehold" fits into this timeline...

 

 

 

[2009]

I wonder if someone killed the vigilante to protect Jordan would they face any charges? ????

 

I saw news recently where a black woman shot a white man in the head killing him because he had her boyfriend in a headlock.

 

No charges as she was defending her boyfriend.

 

Though her boyfriend was charged cos he owned the gun she used and there was something illegal about the size of the clip or something. 

 

It was all caught on film.

[placeholder]

21 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Yeah, sure.  "Hey crazy guy!  Wanna take a rest from the shouting and throwing things and threatening people? I'm on the phone with the cops. Thanks!"

As I said there is also an emergency cord (or maybe buttons now) on the train. And what about that situation required immediately putting him in a chokehold and holding it for 15 minutes. 15 minutes!

[placeholder]

23 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

This story from the Daily Mail shows an interesting timeline;

 

2:25 first call to 911

2:27 two more calls reporting threats and weapons

2:29 call regarding a fight in progress

2:30 Police arrive and start to work on Penny

2:45 Fire department arrives

 

I am wondering where the "15 minute chokehold" fits into this timeline...

 

 

 

Depends on at what point the first call was made. And what you fail to note is that 2 other men had Neelys legs pinned.

[Hanaguma]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Depends on at what point the first call was made. And what you fail to note is that 2 other men had Neelys legs pinned.

True, but given the time between the calls and the police arriving, 15 minutes does not seem accurate. The 911 calls escalated from a disturbance to a fight to the police coming within a few minutes. 

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

True, but given the time between the calls and the police arriving, 15 minutes does not seem accurate. The 911 calls escalated from a disturbance to a fight to the police coming within a few minutes. 

Presumably videos taken of the altercation have the time encoded in them.

[Hanaguma]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Presumably videos taken of the altercation have the time encoded in them.

The most available video of the event is 3 minutes and the two men are already on the ground.  Which kind of aligns nicely with the 911 calls.

[Sheryl]

24 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

True, but given the time between the calls and the police arriving, 15 minutes does not seem accurate. The 911 calls escalated from a disturbance to a fight to the police coming within a few minutes. 

We do not know all the details.

 

Quite likely at least some of the passengers pulled the emergency cord which would have stopped the train between stations.

 

What is sure is that there were many eyewitnesses as well as video footage though the latter likely started somewhere midway through the event.

 

Unless the accused plea bargains, there will be a jury trial.  Many of the witnesses will testify. Video footage will be shown. Other evidence we know nothing about may be introduced. The accused may or may not testify in his own defense.

 

These jurors will be New Yorkers and  certainly have experienced subway travel including scenes of people acting out due to mental illness or drugs - everyone has, it is very prevalent.  They will also have access to far more information than anyone posting here has. The prosecution and defense attorneys between them will try to weed out those with strong prejudices or pre-concieved verdicts in mind (in either direction). 

 

I suggest everyone take a deep breathe and step back and just let this legal process unfold.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Since he has been charged only with second degree manslaughter, intentions are not at issue.

 

Only whether he was reckless in what he did.

 

Second degree manslaughter does not imply any intent to kill.  Quite the contrary,

Yeah that's kind of what I thought.

So if he risks a jury he'll have to hope at least one juror ignores the instructions. It happens.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Jingthing

[Sheryl]

Just now, Jingthing said:

Yeah that's kind of what I thought.

So if he risks a jury he'll have to hope at least one juror ignores the instructions. It happens.

Doesn't have to ignore instructions to vote not guilty. Just needs to believe that the behavior, under the circumstances, was not reckless.