Fresh water connections with elbows, valves and hoses - best practice?

[OneMoreFarang]

Another plumbing questions for which I would like an answer from someone who is qualified - before I ask Somchai.

 

I will install a water heater which will supply the kitchen faucet and bathtub mixer.

My water heater has only one output and I have to divide this to two outputs. And to be sure I want to add some valves.

There is some space, but not a lot of space where the water heater will be installed.

 

Obviously it is no big problem to combine a couple of valves and hoses and maybe elbows to get this working. But I wonder what is the best way to do it. How would a professional plumber do this?

The following is my "working model". I just screwed things together to get an idea how this would look like.

 

My questions and concerns are the following, in lose order:

a) Is there "a rule" that it is not a good idea to combine a couple of "heavy" parts? If I do what I show in the picture then the output of the water heater is loaded with weight to one side. Maybe that makes it break or leak after a while.

b) Is there a rule in which order to connect elbows and valves? The below parts are easy to assemble one after the other. But if i.e. the first installed elbow on the water heater would leak, then this can't be easily fixed without disassembling the rest of the parts. Is that acceptable? Or would a professional plumber do that differently to make it more service friendly?

c) Where to put the output hoses? The way I assembled this now the elbows and valves are fixed to the water heater. The hoses to the faucet and mixer will be connected to the valves. I guess I could do this also in a way that I connect a hose to the output of the water heater, and then the other parts to that hose. If I do that, then the valves and elbows would not be fixed connected to the water heater. I guess that would be more service friendly. Would that be a better solution?

 

Here are some preliminary pictures - just loosely screwed together. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jvs]

I would install the flexible hose first,easy to take of in case of leakage.

That will give you much more room to work with and you can install a T

anywhere else where needed.

Also in case the heater needs to be taken off it will be much easier.

You can get much smaller pieces to work with if you want.

[xtrnuno41]

A) make a separate valve manifold, fitted on the wood of cupboard, putting some clamps over the valves to connect to board and connect manifold with a flex tube to the heater output.  You have some playing space for all to fit

B) use straight connector down instead of elbow from outlet and then fit manifold with clamps. Probably you need some fill (wood.plastic) up under manifold to have solid fitted manifold under device. Of course a short flex could also do right.

All depending on space.

 

The way now is compact but all hangs on plastic (? easy fix) connection, vibrations (maybe) can make it worse. The valves turning gives extra tension. Maybe you never use, but ok. Valves can go more difficult in time, so you need more power, so more tension, when you use and then..?

Of course you put the valve handles straight forward , so you can easily operate. 

Tapered (API, NPT) thread covered with teflon tape for sealing.

For straight thread it is not required, as sealing is on gasket. Dont forget it is there.

Dont use tapered in straight connectors and vv. You will ruin all.

Use as much as possible same materials, different materials can give electro chemical corrosion. One material can be sacrificed and then at one point, you have a leak. Depending again on SS (is it 304 probably ? 316?), brass components. Of course it is city water, but do you know what is in it? Chemicals?

Is pH 4, 7 , 9? If it is below 7 , better use only the 304 SS. Below 7 it is with acid and brass is not so good in acid. The zinc will solve in the water, making it all weak in time. As temperature is higher then normal , it could go faster then.

Just checked ss 304 , but wouldnt give problems. I also see you have copper kettle.

But brass is a composition with the easy solving material, zinc.

 

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

8 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

A) make a separate valve manifold, fitted on the wood of cupboard, putting some clamps over the valves to connect to board and connect manifold with a flex tube to the heater output.  You have some playing space for all to fit

B) use straight connector down instead of elbow from outlet and then fit manifold with clamps. Probably you need some fill (wood.plastic) up under manifold to have solid fitted manifold under device. Of course a short flex could also do right.

All depending on space.

 

The way now is compact but all hangs on plastic (? easy fix) connection, vibrations (maybe) can make it worse. The valves turning gives extra tension. Maybe you never use, but ok. Valves can go more difficult in time, so you need more power, so more tension, when you use and then..?

Of course you put the valve handles straight forward , so you can easily operate. 

Tapered (API, NPT) thread covered with teflon tape for sealing.

For straight thread it is not required, as sealing is on gasket. Dont forget it is there.

Dont use tapered in straight connectors and vv. You will ruin all.

Use as much as possible same materials, different materials can give electro chemical corrosion. One material can be sacrificed and then at one point, you have a leak. Depending again on SS (is it 304 probably ? 316?), brass components. Of course it is city water, but do you know what is in it? Chemicals?

Is pH 4, 7 , 9? If it is below 7 , better use only the 304 SS. Below 7 it is with acid and brass is not so good in acid. The zinc will solve in the water, making it all weak in time. As temperature is higher then normal , it could go faster then.

Just checked ss 304 , but wouldnt give problems. I also see you have copper kettle.

But brass is a composition with the easy solving material, zinc.

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer.

 

I like the option A. It should be easy for me to add such a board.

 

You write: "Dont use tapered in straight connectors and vv. You will ruin all." I understand. But on the first glance I didn't notice the difference (and now the parts are nowhere near me). When looking at the parts is it easy to spot the difference between tapered and straight? How to see the difference?

[OneMoreFarang]

12 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Use as much as possible same materials, different materials can give electro chemical corrosion.

Funny enough, I thought about that. When I asked an old man, probably the owner, in a little Thai "specialist shop", who sell these parts, he told me "no problem". I go to that shop since maybe 20 years and the same guy is there since forever, he is now probably 70 or so. I would have thought he should know...

[Skipalongcassidy]

Simplify...                  

[xtrnuno41]

14 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks a lot for the detailed answer.

 

I like the option A. It should be easy for me to add such a board.

 

You write: "Dont use tapered in straight connectors and vv. You will ruin all." I understand. But on the first glance I didn't notice the difference (and now the parts are nowhere near me). When looking at the parts is it easy to spot the difference between tapered and straight? How to see the difference?

For instance, as there are more straight and tapered threads. You see the difference. IF you doubt, you can measure begin and end.

As when the connectors get smaller, you can be mistaken.

Of course threads should also be the same.

I dont think for house hold there will be a lot of threads to choose from, but straight and tapered will be there.

The hoses/flex (household) are mostly with a straight (G) thread and have a gasket. 

So if you use connectors and valves, tapered, for global fitting, you have to end with a connector from tapered to straight to fit the hoses/flex with a gasket.

[HarrySeaman]

Make sure there is a way to shut off the flow of water to the heater.  Of course you can always turn off the house water supply from the city or well, or turn off the pressure boost pump, but having a valve on the inlet to the water heater is a very good idea.  Other than that your setup seems fine to me.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, HarrySeaman said:

Make sure there is a way to shut off the flow of water to the heater.  Of course you can always turn off the house water supply from the city or well, or turn off the pressure boost pump, but having a valve on the inlet to the water heater is a very good idea.  Other than that your setup seems fine to me.

Thanks

I have already separate valves in the wall for cold water and the heater input.

 

Now I think about if I need valves at the output of the heater at all. If there is a problem, then I can anyhow close the input valve to the heater. And if it is a real problem with i.e. the short pipe to the bathroom (my heater is below the kitchen sink) then worst case I close one of those lines with an end cap. 

[CecilM]

Could be excessive for the heater… the threads are only plastic.

 

I wouldn’t add some heavy complicated contraption underneath. Esp not one with valves that need to be turned.

 

Maybe a flexible hose into a wall-mounted T-joint, and then with a valve each on the outgoing ends of the T.

 

Also consider the distances and placement of the heater. You might end up with very little water pressure on one or both ends.

 

And review max. incoming water pressure for that specific model. You don’t want to burst the tank/heating element (esp if it’s made of plastic like some manufacturers do).

[brianthainess]

Taps/cocks/facets are not valves. just saying. Using the wrong terminology makes this thread hard to follow. 

[xtrnuno41]

Was reading your story again, so you only want valves in case something goes wrong? Was just following your lead on what you showed on pics. But then you can indeed shut of water supply and connect blind cap if needed on the T-joint from heater. Change connector then to a blind cap. However if you do so, it will give additional tension on T joint and fitting to heater. You work on it then even harder.

 

I also read sink faucet (kitchen?) and bath mixer. Heater would be placed in cabinet of kitchen sink? Then how long is the way to go to bath mixer?

With the flex , you already limit the flow (what is inside diameter?) and I dont know where you connect it too (tube or flex all the way to bath mixer?), if the way is long to bath mixer, you loose a lot of heat on the air, radiation convection and also waterflow due to small diameter of flex.

You should better have bigger diameter flex/tube (inside diameter 13 mm), so water can flow easily and more. Insulation is preferred then also if far away. 

What connection has the bath mixer? You need to fill a baht!? Lots of water.

Or call it bathmixermixer only for a shower? The wider the pipe, the less resistance.

No, im not suggesting a 4" pipe,555, but think about it what you should use in this matter. I saw 35-50 C of 2 ltr/min, so you dont want much restrictions.

 

The thing is 6000 W, think about proper cable, at least 4 mm2 (copper)and the proper fuse with RCBO. 6000/230= 26 A when working. 32A, B- characteristic with 30 mA safety cut off.  Dont know if you have a manual, stating the wiring and/or fuse.