1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

The facts dispute your assertions. Trump DID become President. He did not destroy any institutions, didnt even come close. For a rank amateur, he did rather well at some things- not starting new wars, fostering peace in the Middle East, killing some big name terrorists, keeping the economy humming along.  

 

Not sure your evidence of Putin and kim being bosom friends, sounds like hyperbole to me.  He isn't the president who said, "tell Vlad (Putin) that I will have more flexibility after I am re-elected", or the SecState who presented Russia with a huge reset button. He DID institute talks with North Korea- a good gesture IMHO.

 

He was a reflection of a divided society (at least politically), not a cause. And certainly not the danget that the hyperventilating left presents him to be.

 

Let’s test your facts. He gutted the Pentagon, DHS and DOJ & left these institutions without any leaders. Obviously he gutted out of spite without any plan for replacements only acting heads. Anyway I am referring to more destruction of institutions if he is elected. The warning shots were clear that “ you go after me, I will go after you”. 
 

Trump has an affection with Kim and Putin and well documented. Nothing to dispute here. 

2 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Let’s test your facts. He gutted the Pentagon, DHS and DOJ & left these institutions without any leaders. Obviously he gutted out of spite without any plan for replacements only acting heads. Anyway I am referring to more destruction of institutions if he is elected. The warning shots were clear that “ you go after me, I will go after you”. 
 

Trump has an affection with Kim and Putin and well documented. Nothing to dispute here. 

Well, first the DHS should be disbanded. It has no purpose that was not well served by other agencies.  He overspent on defense IMHO, no need for 700 billion plus for the Pentagon. Didn't get involved in any new wars. Killed some dudes that needed killing. Rightly put America first.

 

Trump's "affection" is merely his well known penchant for liking anyone who says nice things about him. He can and does change on a whim- remember him calling Kim "little rocket man"?  Nothing to worry about there.

31 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Well, first the DHS should be disbanded. It has no purpose that was not well served by other agencies.  He overspent on defense IMHO, no need for 700 billion plus for the Pentagon. Didn't get involved in any new wars. Killed some dudes that needed killing. Rightly put America first.

 

Trump's "affection" is merely his well known penchant for liking anyone who says nice things about him. He can and does change on a whim- remember him calling Kim "little rocket man"?  Nothing to worry about there.

I will be brief as we are straying away from the topic. DHS and Pentagon need overhaul. Trump’s whim is a danger to America if he is re-elected. Can’t have leader that make decision based on whim, period. 

2 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Trump's answer was perfectly pragmatic. Nothing is stopping countries from making nukes- it isn't very hard to do.  If I were SK, I would definitely have some handy just in case lil Kim makes a move. Same with Japan.

 

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Not really. I think you have over-estimated the impact that Trump had or could have on anything that actually could have any real impact on the US. And now perhaps, back to the topic at hand?

Not really what?  You clearly think it's sensible for South Korea and Japan to have nuclear weapons.  That alone is proliferation.  How about Taiwan?  Vietnam?  Philippines?  Thailand?  The list goes on. 

 

Once one US ally acquires nuclear weapons the incentive grows for others to acquire them as well.  The more countries there are that have the weapons, the greater the chance of mistakes, miscommunications, corruption (I'm sure a nuclear weapon would bring a nice price in certain markets) and good old-fashioned paranoid over-reaction.  That's why proliferation is a bad thing.  Possibly civilization ending bad.

 

You also grossly under-estimate the importance of the President's words.  As I've already posted, just by speculating on South Korea acquiring nuclear weapons and acting nonchalant about it Trump had the South Korea people calling for their government to acquire such weapons.

 

South Korea has settled down now that we have a sane person in the White House, but Trump did serious long-term damage to the trust the rest of the world has in the United States.  Re-electing him would do further irreparable damage.

 

Many people understand that Trump is an idiot and shouldn't be taken seriously.  Many other don't.  Look at all the people who believed the stolen election lie.  Trump is a threat that should never have been President and should never again be President.

51 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Well, first the DHS should be disbanded. It has no purpose that was not well served by other agencies.  He overspent on defense IMHO, no need for 700 billion plus for the Pentagon. Didn't get involved in any new wars. Killed some dudes that needed killing. Rightly put America first.

 

Trump's "affection" is merely his well known penchant for liking anyone who says nice things about him. He can and does change on a whim- remember him calling Kim "little rocket man"?  Nothing to worry about there.

When you post "put America first" I assume you mean making America isolationist.   Cut our Asian and European allies loose, let them acquire their own nuclear deterrence capability.  I could go on and on about why that's a bad idea, but you don't seem receptive to the logic.

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

Nothing that will be anything other than a footnote or a Jeopardy question within 10 years.  You survived civil war, Woodrow Wilson, and Pearl Harbor. You will get over Trump faster than you realize.

 

It is somehow comforting for people to catastrophize their political opponents, but the reality is different. The system always wins.

 

Me thinks White Man speaks with forked tongue 

You said"I think you have over-estimated the impact that Trump had or could have on anything that actually could have any real impact on the US. "

Do you think Covid had a real affect on the US? and if so, do you thing trump has any impact  on the affect covid had on the US ? 

4 minutes ago, heybruce said:

When you post "put America first" I assume you mean making America isolationist.   Cut our Asian and European allies loose, let them acquire their own nuclear deterrence capability.  I could go on and on about why that's a bad idea, but you don't seem receptive to the logic.

You assume wrong.   That is the problem with so much political discourse, the assumption that a person you disagree with has only the most conveniently extreme position.  Building a straw man and then arguing against it.  No feeling for nuance whatsoever. 

 

Trump was right about NATO. The member states by and large were not meeting their commitments to their own collective defence. He shamed them, and good on him for doing so. Even my homeland Canada was failing to meet its obligations. That is not "cutting them loose", it is encouraging them to step up and defend themselves. None of the other major NATO powers has met their mere 2% of GDP for defence spending obligation. TBH this is probably one of the things that encouraged Putin in his adventurism- NATO relies on Uncle Sugar a little too much. 

 

Asia is a different story. No NATO here, just individual countries trying to make ties to combat the CPC.  To me, this is where the US needs to spend more time and attention. Russia is no threat. Hell, the European NATO countries should be able to handle Russia on their own if they would only be bothered to take their militaries more seriously. 

So I liked Trump playing kissy face with Kim the Younger. It kept the rockets from flying over Japan.  As Churchill said, "to jaw-jaw is better than to war-war."

16 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

You assume wrong.   That is the problem with so much political discourse, the assumption that a person you disagree with has only the most conveniently extreme position.  Building a straw man and then arguing against it.  No feeling for nuance whatsoever. 

 

Trump was right about NATO. The member states by and large were not meeting their commitments to their own collective defence. He shamed them, and good on him for doing so. Even my homeland Canada was failing to meet its obligations. That is not "cutting them loose", it is encouraging them to step up and defend themselves. None of the other major NATO powers has met their mere 2% of GDP for defence spending obligation. TBH this is probably one of the things that encouraged Putin in his adventurism- NATO relies on Uncle Sugar a little too much. 

 

Asia is a different story. No NATO here, just individual countries trying to make ties to combat the CPC.  To me, this is where the US needs to spend more time and attention. Russia is no threat. Hell, the European NATO countries should be able to handle Russia on their own if they would only be bothered to take their militaries more seriously. 

So I liked Trump playing kissy face with Kim the Younger. It kept the rockets from flying over Japan.  As Churchill said, "to jaw-jaw is better than to war-war."

Yes, Trump attempted to publicly shame democratic NATO allies.  That played well with his base and made it even more difficult for the European leaders to convince their citizens that they needed to spend more on defense.  Diplomacy works better than shame; shame causes people to dig in their heels and resist.  One of the many ways in which Trump demonstrated his incompetence.

 

Trump played "kissy face" with Kim until he learned that Kim wasn't going to give up anything of significance, then he gave up and went home.  Nothing was accomplished.

 

And, as noted, Trump's ignorance about nuclear weapons and the importance of preventing proliferation almost led to nuclear proliferation in east Asia and beyond.  It's difficult to present that as a positive.

 

Putting Trump in charge of the US military is like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee.  Just because the chimpanzee doesn't use the gun the first time doesn't mean it's a good idea to try the idiotic stunt a second time.

Edited September 19, 20232 yr by heybruce

10 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Yes, Trump attempted to publicly shame democratic NATO allies.  That played well with his base and made it even more difficult for the European leaders to convince their citizens that they needed to spend more on defense.  Diplomacy works better than shame; shame causes people to dig in their heels and resist.  One of the many ways in which Trump demonstrated his incompetence.

 

Trump played "kissy face" with Kim until he learned that Kim wasn't going to give up anything of significance, then he gave up and went home.  Nothing was accomplished.

 

And, as noted, Trump's ignorance about nuclear weapons and the importance of preventing proliferation almost led to nuclear proliferation in east Asia and beyond.  It's difficult to present that as a positive.

 

Putting Trump in charge of the US military is like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee.  Just because the chimpanzee doesn't use the gun the first time doesn't mean it's a good idea to try the idiotic stunt a second time.

Diplomatic solutions failed with NATO countries for years. They have been slacking since the early 2000s about their responsibilities. Bush and Obama tried to finesse them and were ignored. There was no other way other than a dose of reality. And it seemed to work.  IF the population of Europe doesn't want to pay for their own security, they can start studying Russian. But it is a bit ridiculous for an alliance of 600 million members from the richest nations on earth to constantly cry poor and let someone else do the heavy lifting. 

 

Proliferation is a fact. Nothing the US can do about it. Nukes are easy to build, store, hide, and/or deploy. It is terrifying but also reality.   No president can have any real impact on who gets or doesnt get them.  

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

You assume wrong.   That is the problem with so much political discourse, the assumption that a person you disagree with has only the most conveniently extreme position.  Building a straw man and then arguing against it.  No feeling for nuance whatsoever. 

 

Trump was right about NATO. The member states by and large were not meeting their commitments to their own collective defence. He shamed them, and good on him for doing so. Even my homeland Canada was failing to meet its obligations. That is not "cutting them loose", it is encouraging them to step up and defend themselves. None of the other major NATO powers has met their mere 2% of GDP for defence spending obligation. TBH this is probably one of the things that encouraged Putin in his adventurism- NATO relies on Uncle Sugar a little too much. 

 

Asia is a different story. No NATO here, just individual countries trying to make ties to combat the CPC.  To me, this is where the US needs to spend more time and attention. Russia is no threat. Hell, the European NATO countries should be able to handle Russia on their own if they would only be bothered to take their militaries more seriously. 

So I liked Trump playing kissy face with Kim the Younger. It kept the rockets from flying over Japan.  As Churchill said, "to jaw-jaw is better than to war-war."

And here's the real reason why Kim stopped launching missiles. NK had completed most previous programs and was working on new programs.

It can be seen clearly on the attached graph. When NK resumed launching missiles in 2019, it was mainly about new short-range missiles short-range missiles, and in 2020 a new version of its cruise missile.

Same for nuclear tests. The program was completed.

https://missilethreat.csis.org/north-korea-missile-launches-1984-present/

Edited September 19, 20232 yr by candide

43 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Diplomatic solutions failed with NATO countries for years. They have been slacking since the early 2000s about their responsibilities. Bush and Obama tried to finesse them and were ignored. There was no other way other than a dose of reality. And it seemed to work.  IF the population of Europe doesn't want to pay for their own security, they can start studying Russian. But it is a bit ridiculous for an alliance of 600 million members from the richest nations on earth to constantly cry poor and let someone else do the heavy lifting. 

 

Proliferation is a fact. Nothing the US can do about it. Nukes are easy to build, store, hide, and/or deploy. It is terrifying but also reality.   No president can have any real impact on who gets or doesnt get them.  

What worked for the NATO countries was Putin; he reminded them why they need an effective military.

 

Proliferation is a slow fact; in the last fifty years four countries, India, Pakistan, North Korea and (probably) Israel have acquired nuclear weapons.  Ideally it would be none, but slowing proliferation down is better than throwing up ones hands and green lighting any and all to acquire the weapons. 

 

Also, as Biden has demonstrated in his talks with South Korea, the US President can do a lot.  That has been known since the Cuban missile crisis. 

 

I get the distinct impression you are making up your position on nukes on the fly, just like Trump.  You shouldn't be President either.

Edited September 19, 20232 yr by heybruce

Hanaguma... You have proven once again that using logic and facts cannot sway the Hateful 8 from their stance... Trump lives in their heads rent free and they are blinded by the hate... it is sad 

1 hour ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Hanaguma... You have proven once again that using logic and facts cannot sway the Hateful 8 from their stance... Trump lives in their heads rent free and they are blinded by the hate... it is sad 

What’s not to hate?

On 9/18/2023 at 9:08 AM, BritManToo said:

I believe him!

And I'm guessing a large number of American voters believe him too.

Trump is an idiot: Trump Wrote To-Do Lists on White House Classified Documents, Former Aide Says (msn.com)

On 9/18/2023 at 9:36 AM, 2baht said:

And still they follow him! ????

Trump is dumb, his followers are worse. 

On 9/18/2023 at 11:54 AM, BritManToo said:

How can any sane person believe anything a politician says?

You just said you believe Trump, this is funny.

4 hours ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Hanaguma... You have proven once again that using logic and facts cannot sway the Hateful 8 from their stance... Trump lives in their heads rent free and they are blinded by the hate... it is sad 

You are the sad one Skipa, surely you don't believe the BS rubbish that comes out of his mouth or are you just another mindless sheep?  

 

 

Edited September 20, 20232 yr by 2baht