Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[jayboy]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I only added that highlighted text, because you said in an earlier post that you thought it should be made explicitly clear! Please make up your mind which you want.

 

I don't recall saying that or possibly I didn't make clear enough the point (my only point really) about the distinction between assessable and non assessable income remittances and the requirement for filing a return.On the face of it the former definitely requires a return to be filed and the latter (probably) doesn't.I think we should be careful not to be too prescriptive here because the position could easily change - as I have several times observed.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, TigerCat said:

How much is a "too large a bank account"?  

 

 It's up to you....😉

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I don't recall saying that or possibly I didn't make clear enough the point (my only point really) about the distinction between assessable and non assessable income remittances and the requirement for filing a return.On the face of it the former definitely requires a return to be filed and the latter (probably) doesn't.I think we should be careful not to be too prescriptive here because the position could easily change - as I have several times observed.

 

There is the "assessible vs not assessible" income aspect but there is the "filed in previous year" aspect also, those variables makes it difficult to write a simple statement answering the question, do you have to file or not.....as you realised when you tried to answer scotties question. Saying nothing and not trying to give guidance is a cop out, the question is unavoidable and must be answered.  Trying to answer it in part leaves dangerous holes, trying to answer it fully attracts ridicule about angels and pins. Thus far those variables are:

 

Were you tax resident

Did you have income

Did you have assessible income

Did you have Thai sourced income

Did you file last year.

 

 

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

On the basis of current evidence I believe it to be true. Yet in my opinion it would not be an unreasonable thing for the RD to request - so it needs to be monitored.

 If you have no remitted income, you have no foreign assessable income. And if your only Thai income is bank interest, that doesn't have to be declared as assessable income on a tax return, as you can opt to just treat it as 'withholding at source final tax.' So you're saying it wouldn't be unreasonable for RD to have you file a tax return where all income lines are blank? And where there are no lines to show non assessable income?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

 If you have no remitted income, you have no foreign assessable income. And if your only Thai income is bank interest, that doesn't have to be declared as assessable income on a tax return, as you can opt to just treat it as 'withholding at source final tax.' So you're saying it wouldn't be unreasonable for RD to have you file a tax return where all income lines are blank? And where there are no lines to show non assessable income?

And you didn't file in the previous year....don't forget

[JimGant]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

And you didn't file in the previous year....don't forget

 Where in the world did you get that "file in previous year" dictate?

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 Where in the world did you get that "file in previous year" dictate?

From the quote you supplied from PWC!

[Mike Lister]

….…to assess their income for Thai tax and file a tax return.  According to the rules as we interpret them, you must file a Thai tax return, as long as the following criteria are met:

 

You were Thai tax resident in the previous year, AND.

You filed a return in the previous year, OR

You had assessable income that exceeds the threshold.

 

Thai-sourced income is always taxable in Thailand, wherever it is received and regardless of tax residence status. Foreign sourced income is subject to remittance, tax residency and other factors such as terms of a DTA. 

 

If anyone wants to improve on the above, please draft something for us to look at. Done.

 

[JimGant]

33 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

From the quote you supplied from PWC!

Hmmm. Can't seem to find that.... Can you give me a page number please. Thanx.

[JohnnyBD]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

19 hours ago, stat said:

Remember you can (maybe) never comeback to Thailand. In addition if you have an unforseen stop over in TH somewhere in the future you may be in trouble. I would rather ensure that you receive "gifts" in 2024. But up to you and yes the risk may be minimal.

Scaremongering. 

The scaremongering and over-the-top opinions being posted by some are just making me more anxious about this issue than I need to be, so I will stop reading for now and will check back with you in 2025 to see how things are shaking out.

 

Mike, I wanted to say thanks so much for all your hard work creating the Tax Guide and for responding to questions on this issue in a reasonable way. I saved a shortcut to your Tax Guide for future reference.

Thanks again and take care...

[Mike Lister]

16 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Hmmm. Can't seem to find that.... Can you give me a page number please. Thanx.

I can't see immediately the previous year clause but I am certain I have read it in something you quoted, I will look for it and post when I return. In the meantime, the PWC link you quoted was here:

 

Tuesday 02:46
The following individuals are required to file income tax returns for income earned in the preceding tax year irrespective of whether there is any tax due:
• A person who has no spouse and earns income of more than
Baht 60,000
• A person who has no spouse and earns income under category
(1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 120,000
• A person who has a spouse and earns income of more than Baht
120,000
• A person who has a spouse and earns income under category (1)
(salaries and wages) of more than Baht 220,000.

[Mike Lister]

I can't find the quoted piece, I'm certain I have read it but can't see where. I need to put this down, Mrs Mike's getting cranky and it's the holidays. I'll pick i back up shortly.

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

but there is the "filed in previous year" aspect also

 

Frankly this is a new consideration for me, and on reflection not difficult to deal with.I could go into more detail.

 

The remark about angels/pins was not personal.It was made about all of us wrestling with fairly minor issues when with a little patience all will be revealed in the next few months.

[topt]

56 minutes ago, jayboy said:

when with a little patience all will be revealed in the next few months.

I admire your optimism 

 

Unfortunately I don't see much more clarity being revealed until potentially early 2025........

[Mike Lister]

56 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Frankly this is a new consideration for me, and on reflection not difficult to deal with.I could go into more detail.

 

The remark about angels/pins was not personal.It was made about all of us wrestling with fairly minor issues when with a little patience all will be revealed in the next few months.

I didn't view it as personal but I do have a strong sense of a circular debate. I think we should go back to basics on this, the original statement should stand, until somebody posts a link to concrete data that changes it, otherwise we're just chasing our tails, because of two detractors.

[TigerCat]

paddypower

 

How much is a "too large a bank account"?  

 

"easy peasy. I have 5 different bank accounts. How many do you have.?"

 

I have 4. But if a person has a lot in each account, maybe there are still over a "trigger" amount.

 

I was wondering if there is a "trigger" amount, but I can't find anything online about it.   

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, TigerCat said:

paddypower

 

How much is a "too large a bank account"?  

 

"easy peasy. I have 5 different bank accounts. How many do you have.?"

 

I have 4. But if a person has a lot in each account, maybe there are still over a "trigger" amount.

 

I was wondering if there is a "trigger" amount, but I can't find anything online about it.   

It was reported here that over 400 bank transaction per year is trigger

[UKresonant]

19 minutes ago, TigerCat said:

paddypower

 

How much is a "too large a bank account"?  

 

"easy peasy. I have 5 different bank accounts. How many do you have.?"

 

I have 4. But if a person has a lot in each account, maybe there are still over a "trigger" amount.

 

I was wondering if there is a "trigger" amount, but I can't find anything online about it.   

I've tried to find trigger amounts for inbound remittance, (I remember a thread years ago, and at that time inbound of about THB 40k that could potentiallyflag something).

Could only find a threashold of 400 deposits totalling more than 2 million Baht. Every inboand must have a 'purpose' code reported, but not sure if it is individual reported or bulked up and reported to BOT.

[TigerCat]

PADDYPOWER

 

"It was reported here that over 400 bank transaction per year is trigger"

 

I saw that on a website, with amount over 2 million baht.

 

But that is for deposits and transfers received, not for an amount in a bank account that might trigger and audit. 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TigerCat said:

PADDYPOWER

 

"It was reported here that over 400 bank transaction per year is trigger"

 

I saw that on a website, with amount over 2 million baht.

 

But that is for deposits and transfers received, not for an amount in a bank account that might trigger and audit. 

What would you imagine, how much?

[TigerCat]

Mike Lister

"What would you imagine, how much?"

 

I imagined 10,000,00 baht. But that is just my imagination. 

 

Jim Gant brought this up. 

 

Like so many other laws I rather know the answer to than not know, I can't find an answer to this one online.  

[stat]

23 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

The timing on raising the price on the Elite visa was 1,000% no accident....They knew of the tax announcement well ahead of time...The timing was just too perfect....

 

The Elite visa lost money almost every year since its creation.....It had done well for the last few years then this tax insanity came along....I bet they have sold very very few this year..

Fully agree! However it is beyond me why they cut the price of LTR

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand-visa/thailand-long-term-resident-ltr-visa

 

[stat]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

It was reported here that over 400 bank transaction per year is trigger

Interesting, so maybe we should stop using a thai credit card for grab usage.

[JimGant]

Hey, we don't know how much money in a bank account(s) attracts RD interest. So, that shouldn't matter. What does matter is having sufficient paperwork to show that remitted monies came from pre 2024 accounts, or from accounts exclusively holding DTA exempt monies. Or (worst case), arguing that you used FIFO to show principal, not income, was remitted. As there's nothing to say, under current guidance, that you can't use that argument, you should prevail. But, going forward, I wouldn't be too sure, if the Thais adopt the UK system of LIFO.

[Mike Lister]

I love these arguments, I'm betting they'll go down a real treat with the Revenue inspectors.

 

"There's nothing to say you can't".

 

"It doesn't say what it's not".

 

Or the look on their faces when you tell them it's not income because you used FIFO.

 

"You used what, FIFO, really.....farang heathen accounting devil, Thai no have FIFO".

 

arf arf!

 

[stat]

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I can't find the quoted piece, I'm certain I have read it but can't see where. I need to put this down, Mrs Mike's getting cranky and it's the holidays. I'll pick i back up shortly.

This is an interesting question. It cannot hold true according to my western logic as it would imply once you have filled a TH tax return you would have to file until your death or until you are no longer a thai tax resident.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You used what, FIFO, really.....farang heathen accounting devil, Thai no have FIFO".

They don't have LIFO either. So, how do you assess what's principal and what's income on a chunk of fungible remittance? Like back in the first world, your competent tax accountant will recommend -- in a gray area situation -- the option that is most favorable to the client. So, under current "non guidance from RD," the competent recommendation is FIFO.

 

 

[redwood1]

2 hours ago, stat said:

Fully agree! However it is beyond me why they cut the price of LTR

 

https://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand-visa/thailand-long-term-resident-ltr-visa

 

 

Interesting....Looks like they knocked 50K off the application fee..But left all the other very very high bar requirements......I agree its strange.....

[Mike Lister]

55 minutes ago, JimGant said:

They don't have LIFO either. So, how do you assess what's principal and what's income on a chunk of fungible remittance? Like back in the first world, your competent tax accountant will recommend -- in a gray area situation -- the option that is most favorable to the client. So, under current "non guidance from RD," the competent recommendation is FIFO.

 

Unless you're Mike -- who doesn't recommend anything, except confusion.

I don't recommend anything here, only provide information....but you knew that.

 

"how do you assess what's principal and what's income on a chunk of fungible remittance?"

 

Income first, principle second, perhaps.

 

Pro rata, perhaps

 

Who knows, I don't and you don't, so why provide a work around, just because you don't know! Developing new work arounds every time there's a knowledge gap makes a person appear lazy or.......well, you know!

 

And enough of the personal attacks, OK!

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

51 minutes ago, stat said:

This is an interesting question. It cannot hold true according to my western logic as it would imply once you have filled a TH tax return you would have to file until your death or until you are no longer a thai tax resident.

If you were the TRD and the default position was that nobody filed, you'd make the rules such that everyone filed every time and only didn't file,on an exception basis, just like in the rest of the world.

 

And if you were a foreigner, you could easily break that cycle by becoming non tax resident for a year.