Brexit: UK could rejoin EU as an ‘associate member’

[RayC]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

EU member states are ruled by their own governments but the EU itself assumes much of the power that would otherwise be solely held and applied by these individual governments, if they were not EU members.

Indeed but the strategic direction of the EU is set by the European Council (Heads of Government of the member states).

 

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

EU Law is proposed only by the Commission, which is comprised of commissioners from various member states. The main problem with this is that the EU now has 27 member states. The best interests of all members are different can rarely best served by one body (commission) making laws for all. This was one of the reasons for Brexit. 

Again, agreed. It is very unlikely that a decision covering 27 member states will be optimal. Hopefully, it will be the best compromise decision.

 

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The EU Commissioners themselves, are nominated for selection and approval, rather than being purely and openly elected. This system seems to rely more on closed-door bartering, rather than democratic process and has produced some poor results in the past, and more today.

Agreed. Imo there is a strong argument for Commissioners, especially the President, to be directly elected. 

 

However, let's not pretend that UK national politics is any more democratic and doesn't itself throw up some poor results. You only need look at the membership of any UK cabinet this century.

 

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Here, I'm particularly thinking of the EU Commission President, Ursula von der Leyen, who had a poor record as German defence minister, no experience at all within the EU and was criticized by her own compatriots: “the Bundeswehr’s condition is catastrophic,” wrote Rupert Scholz, former German defense minister, who added. “The entire defense capability of the Federal Republic is suffering, which is totally irresponsible.”

Imo V.d. Leyen was a strange choice. A judgement on her performance will be delivered next year when she is up for re-election.

 

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

After that, von der Leyen magically emerged as EU President but only after an overnight intervention by Angela Merkel (who also seemed keen on overnight trips for Theresa May). This event confirmed who really was running the EU for so long. 

That Germany wields enormous influence within the EU shouldn't be a surprise. So too does France, as did the UK when it was a member.

 

I don't understand the Theresa May reference?

 

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

I wonder how many Europeans (apart from Germans)  knew who Ursula von der Leyen even was before she became the boss? Single digit % I would bet.

Most Commission Presidents and Commissioners emerge during the nomination period. Most candidates aren't widely known outside of their home country. Imo that's not a particular problem currently, but I accept that if they were to be elected directly by the public then something would need to be done to change the situation.

 

However, surely the main thing is that the President and Commissioners are competent and on top of their respective briefs. I'm sure that you would agree that the same criteria should be applied to UK cabinet ministers.

[candide]

45 minutes ago, nauseus said:

EU member states are ruled by their own governments but the EU itself assumes much of the power that would otherwise be solely held and applied by these individual governments, if they were not EU members.

 

EU Law is proposed only by the Commission, which is comprised of commissioners from various member states. The main problem with this is that the EU now has 27 member states. The best interests of all members are different can rarely best served by one body (commission) making laws for all. This was one of the reasons for Brexit. 

 

The EU Commissioners themselves, are nominated for selection and approval, rather than being purely and openly elected. This system seems to rely more on closed-door bartering, rather than democratic process and has produced some poor results in the past, and more today.

 

Here, I'm particularly thinking of the EU Commission President, Ursula von der Leyen, who had a poor record as German defence minister, no experience at all within the EU and was criticized by her own compatriots: “the Bundeswehr’s condition is catastrophic,” wrote Rupert Scholz, former German defense minister, who added. “The entire defense capability of the Federal Republic is suffering, which is totally irresponsible.”

 

After that, von der Leyen magically emerged as EU President but only after an overnight intervention by Angela Merkel (who also seemed keen on overnight trips for Theresa May). This event confirmed who really was running the EU for so long. 

 

I wonder how many Europeans (apart from Germans)  knew who Ursula von der Leyen even was before she became the boss? Single digit % I would bet.

EU laws need to be approved by the Council and the EP, so the Commission has to involve them in the design process. 

EU members are nominated by the member States composing the Council.

It's true that the more member States  the more difficult it gets. Hence this proposal, which allows for different levels of involvement.

[nauseus]

Just now, candide said:

EU laws need to be approved by the Council and the EP, so the Commission has to involve them in the design process. 

EU members are nominated by the member States composing the Council.

It's true that the more member States  the more difficult it gets. Hence this proposal, which allows for different levels of involvement.

Yes. But you have ignored my main point. That's OK.

[candide]

19 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes. But you have ignored my main point. That's OK.

The current system for nominating Commission members may not be optimal. However, it keeps the Commission under the control of the members states.

A system of elected Commission members would generated other problems.

To start with, it would mean the EU would de facto become a federal State, which it isn't. That's the main issue. They would derive their power from the people, not from the member States.

Additionally, it would be difficult to find a system generating consensus. How would it work? A Conservative list against a social-democrat list? A Northern Europe list against a Southern Europe list?

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by candide

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, RayC said:

Indeed but the strategic direction of the EU is set by the European Council (Heads of Government of the member states).

 

Again, agreed. It is very unlikely that a decision covering 27 member states will be optimal. Hopefully, it will be the best compromise decision.

 

Agreed. Imo there is a strong argument for Commissioners, especially the President, to be directly elected. 

 

However, let's not pretend that UK national politics is any more democratic and doesn't itself throw up some poor results. You only need look at the membership of any UK cabinet this century.

 

Imo V.d. Leyen was a strange choice. A judgement on her performance will be delivered next year when she is up for re-election.

 

That Germany wields enormous influence within the EU shouldn't be a surprise. So too does France, as did the UK when it was a member.

 

I don't understand the Theresa May reference?

 

Most Commission Presidents and Commissioners emerge during the nomination period. Most candidates aren't widely known outside of their home country. Imo that's not a particular problem currently, but I accept that if they were to be elected directly by the public then something would need to be done to change the situation.

 

However, surely the main thing is that the President and Commissioners are competent and on top of their respective briefs. I'm sure that you would agree that the same criteria should be applied to UK cabinet ministers.

Well thanks for the reply and some agreement. I'm not celebrating the state of UK politics at all but that's a different issue.

 

Theresa May? Remember when she was summoned to Berlin by Mutti Merkel and had to leave Downing St about 3 in the morning to make the meeting? Just before the great Chequers Agreement was revealed.

 

Well I agree with your criteria and requirements, I am afraid that many EU Commissioners (past and present) have appeared to be neither competent nor on top of their respective briefs. Unfortunately the same might be said of several UK cabinet ministers (and "Prime" Ministers). ????

 

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, candide said:

The current system for nominating Commission members may not be optimal. However, it keeps the Commission under the control of the members states.

A system of elected Commission members would generated other problems.

To start with, it would mean the EU would de facto become a federal State, which it isn't. That's the main issue. They would derive their power from the people, not from the member States.

Additionally, it would be difficult to find a system generating consensus. How would it work? A Conservative list against a social-democrat list? A Northern Europe list against a Southern Europe list?

 

Hmmm. Thanks. Not sure. Difficult innit?

[RayC]

43 minutes ago, candide said:

The current system for nominating Commission members may not be optimal. However, it keeps the Commission under the control of the members states.

A system of elected Commission members would generated other problems.

To start with, it would mean the EU would de facto become a federal State, which it isn't. That's the main issue. They would derive their power from the people, not from the member States.

Additionally, it would be difficult to find a system generating consensus. How would it work? A Conservative list against a social-democrat list? A Northern Europe list against a Southern Europe list?

 

As you infer, introducing a system of elected Commissioners would be far from straightforward, but I don't understand why you say that it would de facto generate a federal state?

 

The nomination of Commissioners by member states is usually made according to party lines, so the problem you outline currently exists.

[RayC]

53 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Theresa May? Remember when she was summoned to Berlin by Mutti Merkel and had to leave Downing St about 3 in the morning to make the meeting? Just before the great Chequers Agreement was revealed.

????

 

Thanks for the clarification; I'd forgotten about that incident.

 

It seemed like a sensible decision to ensure that the EU agreed with May's proposal to the UK cabinet, although I'll admit that her flying to Berlin, rather than Brussels, does suggest that Germany were driving things at that moment.