New "Income" tax law 2024

[freeworld]

Looks like the general gist of all these tax threads is many people don't want to pay tax in Thailand but want to live here.

Edited October 8, 2023 by freeworld

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, freeworld said:

Looks like the general gist of all these tax threads is many people don't want to pay tax in Thailand but want to live here.

That's one view, maybe another is people have built their lives here based on an understanding of their income/budget & that might now change so understandably they're concerned. 

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm fully Tax compliant in my home country (which is where all my income comes from) & plan to be so in Thailand.

 

[Celsius]

1 hour ago, freeworld said:

Looks like the general gist of all these tax threads is many people don't want to pay tax in Thailand but want to live here.

 

What a dolt.

 

Nobody here lives in Thailand unless you have a PR. Who wants to do 90 day reports while paying tax? Remember, we are all tourists here.

 

 

 

 

[MartinL]

1 hour ago, freeworld said:

Looks like the general gist of all these tax threads is many people don't want to pay tax in Thailand but want to live here.

Not my take on it at all. 

 

Most posters - myself included - seem to be concerned about the detail and wording of their own country's Double Tax Treaty (DTT) with Thailand, what that'll mean for their taxation and that it'll be fair and not demand the year-long chasing of paperwork to ensure that fairness. Of course they don't WANT to pay tax but, since it seems inevitable, they certainly want to minimise it - who doesn't? - and need to have clarity of the rules to achieve that, hence the abundance of questions on these threads. In addition, what does paying income tax to Thailand gain you? Absolutely nothing as far as I can see. We'll still be treated as if we don't contribute to society.

 

The UK-Thai DTT seems, to me (although my take could very well be totally wrong), to offer no relief from double taxation for me, as the recipient of non-government pensions. That's a concern.

 

On a personal level, I want to pay as little tax as possible but will definitely stay here unless things get REALLY, REALLY bad. I would never ask my wife to move away from Thailand and I wouldn't go without her - she has her sons and our grandchildren here and wouldn't last 5 minutes far away from them. Neither would I, come to that. I'm committed to my Thai family but not so much to Thailand - if I was single, Thailand would have almost nothing to keep me here. On a 2 week trip to UK in June, we were both eager to come home at the end of that time.

 

Mike Teavee posted while I wrote this. I agree with his post.

[moogradod]

1 hour ago, freeworld said:

Looks like the general gist of all these tax threads is many people don't want to pay tax in Thailand but want to live here.

Who does not want to optimize taxes ? Everywhere around the world. Freeworld sounds like a former government employee. All of the people I know contribute a lot to Thailand - whatever their tax situation might be. This includes me who has spent many many millions here. But I stay here because of my family only and of course I want to be conform with the rules but not because of the reasoning displayed above

[topt]

2 hours ago, freeworld said:

Looks like the general gist of all these tax threads is many people don't want to pay tax in Thailand but want to live here.

Not sure if you are just being argumentative for the sake of it but if you already pay tax elsewhere why would anyone want to pay more?

 

As mentioned in the post above IMHO the concern is because of the total lack of detail as to how this will work so it is difficult for many to know how they will be affected and to what level.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by topt
post above meant MartinL's post

[grs90]

2 hours ago, topt said:

As mentioned in the post above IMHO the concern is because of the total lack of detail as to how this will work so it is difficult for many to know how they will be affected and to what level.

As stated above, it is the uncertainty about what the impact will be that is the big problem rather than anything else.  

 

As a UK retiree whose sole source of income being brought in to Thailand is from a company pension, it seems what I bring in could be taxed in Thailand.  This is despite it already being taxed in the UK.  

 

So, unless things are clarified before the end of the year, I am currently thinking how to avoid bringing potentially taxable income in to Thailand during 2024.

 

Currently the annual amount the Thai wife and I spend in Thailand on day to day living is around 1,000,000 baht.  There are no planned large purchases next year so I'll aim to stick to that amount for 2024.  

 

I can probably bring 600,000 baht of this in to Thailand before the end of 2023 which I think means it will not be impacted by the new directive.  I will bring in the other 400,000 in 2 chunks of 200,000.  One sent to my bank account and one sent to the wife's account.  I believe this will keep us both below the level at which any tax is payable.  Then, if it is needed, we can both file Thai tax declarations in early 2025 with no tax to pay.  

 

Hopefully things will become clearer, if not by the end of this year then by early 2025!  

[CartagenaWarlock]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:31 AM, CMBob said:

it is income technically taxable in your home country and shouldn't be taxable here.

I don't think double taxation works like that. In Double taxation (personal not corporate), you pay taxes in you tax resident country first and then deduct your taxes from the source country's taxes. If source country's taxes are 0, you pay the full amount in Thailand. If source country's tax is 20K and Thailand tax is 2k. You pay tax in Thailand first and then deduct your 2K payment from your source country's taxes. 

[CartagenaWarlock]

4 hours ago, topt said:

Not sure if you are just being argumentative for the sake of it but if you already pay tax elsewhere why would anyone want to pay more?

First you pay taxes for the amount you bring to Thailand and then deduct the taxes from your source country's taxes. If your source source country does not tax, then of course you only pay Thailand taxes. Let's say you have 100K USD income in the US and bring 24K. You first pay taxes on the 24K, let's say 1K USD in Thailand. You can then deduct your 1,000 USD taxes paid to Thailand from your US tax liabilities. 

[topt]

4 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

First you pay taxes for the amount you bring to Thailand and then deduct the taxes from your source country's taxes. If your source source country does not tax, then of course you only pay Thailand taxes. Let's say you have 100K USD income in the US and bring 24K. You first pay taxes on the 24K, let's say 1K USD in Thailand. You can then deduct your 1,000 USD taxes paid to Thailand from your US tax liabilities. 

You make it sound so simple.....

In practice for many the tax years and filing dates are completely different with potential fines for late payment. Most importantly not all DTAs are equal so not necessarily the case.

Until they clarify how it will work we are all just venting 

[Presnock]

On 10/7/2023 at 12:47 PM, soalbundy said:

Yesterday I received my confirmation of income from the German consulate, the letter addressed not only the IO but also the inland revenue although I hadn't mentioned anything about taxation to them. The paragraph for the inland revenue stated that they assume that Mr xxxx wil be exempted from taxation due to the double taxation treaty between Germany and Thailand. So Germany goes the extra mile for their pensioners, I doubt that Brexit Britain will do the same for hers.

for alll the ex-pats concerned with this coming tax on our monies - last week I received an email from Greenback

expat tax company...([email protected]) who advertized their ex-pat tax services.  They asked if I

had any questions about taxation here - of course I did and asked about the double taxation international agreements.  I was surprised at the answer. They also gave me an answer about the FBAR which I had been doing

without need at over the past couple of years but now that too is changed.  Anyway, I learned that US citizens can

be forced to pay taxes to a country with an agreement and that dollar for dollar paid to this country can then be

deducted from my US tax payments.  I do not know if they also provide any infor for other countries but one can

always email them and ask.  Good luck to all!

[Mike Teavee]

14 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

First you pay taxes for the amount you bring to Thailand and then deduct the taxes from your source country's taxes. If your source source country does not tax, then of course you only pay Thailand taxes. Let's say you have 100K USD income in the US and bring 24K. You first pay taxes on the 24K, let's say 1K USD in Thailand. You can then deduct your 1,000 USD taxes paid to Thailand from your US tax liabilities. 

See rule 5 on the RD Website... https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html

5.   What happens if the rate of tax stipulated in the Revenue Code is different from that of an agreement?  

- Apply the rate which is more beneficial to the taxpayer.  

 

Which I read as saying if you've paid any Tax on the Income in your home country & Thailand has a DTA which covers that kind of income, then Thailand will not tax you again on it even if the Tax rates in Thailand are higher. 

 

 

 

[morg]

Hi I rent out 2 flats in uk will I have to pay tax in Thailand starting from 2024 under the new tax law 

[federicoP]

12 hours ago, morg said:

Hi I rent out 2 flats in uk will I have to pay tax in Thailand starting from 2024 under the new tax law 

If you bring this money to Thailand you should read the Double Tax Agreement between your country and Thailand, and probably you will discover that the income from a rented flat must be subjected to tax only in the country where it is located.

[JimGant]

On 10/8/2023 at 11:50 AM, MartinL said:

The UK-Thai DTT seems, to me (although my take could very well be totally wrong), to offer no relief from double taxation for me, as the recipient of non-government pensions. That's a concern.

 

Quote

Thai tax payable under the laws of Thailand and in accordance with this Convention, whether directly or by deduction, on profits, income or chargeable gains from sources within Thailand (excluding, in the case of a dividend, tax payable in respect of the profits out of which the dividend is paid) shall be allowed as a credit against any United Kingdom tax computed by reference to the same profits, income or chargeable gains by reference to which the Thai tax is computed.

Article 23  Thai UK tax treaty

 

 

[MartinL]

On 11/3/2023 at 11:14 AM, JimGant said:

 

 

 

Thanks Jim. 

 

I saw that long ago, many months before all this tax discussion became a 'thing' and had completely forgotten it. Thanks for refreshing my memory.

[topt]

7 minutes ago, MartinL said:

Thanks Jim. 

 

I saw that long ago, many months before all this tax discussion became a 'thing' and had completely forgotten it. Thanks for refreshing my memory.

Except non governmental  pensions (including the state pension) are specifically excluded according to HMRC from the UK/Thai DTA - so how does that work there.........

[MartinL]

27 minutes ago, topt said:

Except non governmental  pensions (including the state pension) are specifically excluded according to HMRC from the UK/Thai DTA - so how does that work there.........

Despite Jim refreshing my memory, I'm still going with the assumption that such pensions are excluded from the DTA. A pleasant surprise might be forthcoming when/if all this ever clarified. 

[Bazle]

On 11/3/2023 at 11:14 AM, JimGant said:

 

 

 

The UK pension is not Thai-source, so that quote is not relevant. 

[Tom Vanderlay]

On 10/9/2023 at 4:50 AM, Presnock said:

for alll the ex-pats concerned with this coming tax on our monies - last week I received an email from Greenback

expat tax company...(info(at)greenbacktaxservices.com) who advertized their ex-pat tax services.  They asked if I

had any questions about taxation here - of course I did and asked about the double taxation international agreements.  I was surprised at the answer. They also gave me an answer about the FBAR which I had been doing

without need at over the past couple of years but now that too is changed.  Anyway, I learned that US citizens can

be forced to pay taxes to a country with an agreement and that dollar for dollar paid to this country can then be

deducted from my US tax payments.  I do not know if they also provide any infor for other countries but one can

always email them and ask.  Good luck to all!

HI,  Just a couple of questions if you wouldn't mind answering.  

1) Is the FBAR unnecessary (for you, or other Americans with overseas bank accounts)?  I've been doing them for the last 5 years.  Didn't know about them before that.

2) You mention getting a dollar for dollar reduction in taxes for taxes paid to another country.  How/ what forms or procedure(s) are necessary for this (if you know)?  

Many thanks.

[Presnock]

5 minutes ago, Tom Vanderlay said:

HI,  Just a couple of questions if you wouldn't mind answering.  

1) Is the FBAR unnecessary (for you, or other Americans with overseas bank accounts)?  I've been doing them for the last 5 years.  Didn't know about them before that.

2) You mention getting a dollar for dollar reduction in taxes for taxes paid to another country.  How/ what forms or procedure(s) are necessary for this (if you know)?  

Many thanks.

Actually I too have been doing the FBAR every year - although previously I didn't meet all the necessary criteria as I didn't have 10K USD in my acct here in any one month - But as I always did he FBAR just to be safe, now that daughter is in college (tuition) here and we rented a condo for her by the college, plus also rented a house in BKK because we have two dogs and needed a yard, then at time I have had 10K in one month or more so doing the FBAR just comes naturally.  I send mine in the first week of January every year.  I started doing them whenever they came out with the requirement just to be safe, sorta like taxes - I send mine in as soon as I get the 1099R from the government.  If Thailand were to tax me on my

US govt pension (which they can't due to DTA and current LTR), and actually took monies out of that which remitted or tried to do so later, they

 according to US tax laws, it states that I could then decrease my US tax bill dollar for dollar.  i.e. the Thais take out 1000 USD for taxes, then I could

 claim that when I filed my taxes.   The 2023 instructions claim Publication 514 (2023) Foreign Tax Credit or the instructions say one could also use form 1116 foreign tax credit  and claim it as a deduction on the 1040.  I suggest if you normally can do your own taxes without problems, that you google the Foreign Tax Credit, see what forms or whatever one can use currently, then check on the IRS website for those publications or forms, check to see if you fully understand them.  If not, then there are numerous agents overseas in most major cities that have tax "expert" who will help you or you can ask specific questions.  My finances are basic only and really simple so I have never had any problems following the IRS instructions. 

Good luck as I find most of the instructions with the forms to be pretty comprehensive and easy to understand.

[Presnock]

On 10/5/2023 at 9:56 AM, Robin said:

Surely this is going o be the end of Thailand as a retirement destination?

Who is going to retire to a country where you cannot bring in money from you home county

Sell your house at home, probably pay no tax on that money (as in UK)  and then pay 30% tx on that in Thailand.  No Thanks!!

B4, I saw a lot of youtube videos on the different tax proposals, then on agents looking for business, now I see folks advising prospective retirees to go to Malaysian, the PI or Cambodia if one wants to remain in the area and still get a tax break.  I really don't know for sure but from these new videos, those countries are not going after expats like here seems to be doing.  Good luck