UN’s António Guterres calls for immediate ceasefire to end ‘epic suffering’ in Gaza

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Is there some kind of reward given to the poster who can write "apartheid" the most times in one paragraph ?

   If so, I think that we have a winner here 

Only a moral one

 

[Hanaguma]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Hey what's homeland here and a homeland there? People are so touchy this days. 

I say live and let live.

They took your homeland? just go someplace else.

Plenty of room  for everyone here. No reason to get upset. 

Israel took nobody's homeland. There has never been a Palestinian homeland. There was no country in the region before Israel.  Sure, lots of Palestinians lived there. But they fled when Israel was attacked by FIVE countries in 1948.  As far as I am concerned, they (the Palestinians )are the responsibility of those five nations.

 

Also, ask yourself why the 55 Muslim nations in the world have done nothing to alleviate the suffering of the Palestinians? Did not offer them refuge, did not offer them visas or status as residents, just kept them in camps. This has gone on for 3 generations and it is disgusting. Contrast this to: a/ the treatment of Jewish refugees in Israel, and b/ the treatment of refugees in general by western nations. 

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Yea but the Egyptians and Jordanians did not take their land away and established an apartheid state. 

I am sure you were indignant about the apartheid situation in South Africa. Where is your indignation about this apartheid state? instead of being an Israeli apologist?What's the matter, ardent the Palestinians brown enough for you.

 

The Israelis claim a two state solution.

look at the picture below and tell e where do you see the makings of a viable second state???????

 

 

 

Disregarding your 'apartheid' obsession - what you claim would imply that the Palestinians are not/were not focused so much on independence, having a state, self rule, sovereignty and all that. If they were that content, how come terrorist actions etc. were going on? How come the did not pursue Egypt's promise to hand over Gaza to the PLO?

 

As for your disgusting personal remarks - I have posted often that Israel's actions and policy in the West Bank are wrong. And that you could claim even make your 'apartheid' claims stick as far as that goes. But since your commentary seems to expand that to the entire country (including the Gaza Strip) we'll have to disagree. I'm not of the position that Israel's policies are great, always just or whatever.

 

The Israelis do not claim a two-state solution. That's one of the problems. Most right wing governments were never for it, and even under centrist-left wing ones, it's not a granted proposition. Then again, it's not as if the Palestinians are exactly ready and willing, are they?

 

You're asking me to defend things I'm objecting to as well, not sure what your point is. I concur that the illegal settlement effort is a huge hurdle for any solution. Never said otherwise. It's just that I'm not accepting Israel is solely responsible for how complex this has become. Some people seem to have a fit when it's opined that the Palestinians should be held accountable for their own mistakes, wrong actions and choices.

 

You may now apologize.

[deejai33]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That should be East Jerusalem.

 

Yes, I also think its East Jerusalem that the Palestinians want as the capital of their state.

 

In the most recent major US initiative a few years ago, the plan proposed by Mr Trumps son-in-law did not have East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital.  And gave israel many settlements within the Palestinian state.   Ignored refugee right of return issue. 

 

A bit of a non-starter, but at least it was in the right direction of a Palestinian state.  Need to make it a viable state however.

[sirineou]

58 minutes ago, Morch said:

Disregarding your 'apartheid' obsession

I stopped reading at the "my  apartheid position, though after that it had no place to go but up. 

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I stopped reading at the "my  apartheid position, though after that it had no place to go but up. 

 

Funny, how I could answer your post after the disgusting comments made.

Guess we'll add this one to the list of your usual cop outs, eh?

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Funny, how I could answer your post after the disgusting comments made.

Guess we'll add this one to the list of your usual cop outs, eh?

Whatever Rocks your boat

Edited October 26, 2023 by sirineou

[billd766]

1 hour ago, deejai33 said:

 

Yes, I also think its East Jerusalem that the Palestinians want as the capital of their state.

 

In the most recent major US initiative a few years ago, the plan proposed by Mr Trumps son-in-law did not have East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital.  And gave Israel many settlements within the Palestinian state.   Ignored refugee right of return issue. 

 

A bit of a non-starter, but at least it was in the right direction of a Palestinian state.  Need to make it a viable state however.

And keep Trump, his son in law plus all of their family well away from ANY discussions  regarding Israel and the Palestinians.

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, sirineou said:

How do you think Palestine  became from this 

 

To this 

I doubt any pro israeli wants to accept that israel caused the problem with oppression and land theft.

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, billd766 said:

And keep Trump, his son in law plus all of their family well away from ANY discussions  regarding Israel and the Palestinians.

On that I agree 100%.

[sirineou]

31 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I doubt any pro israeli wants to accept that israel caused the problem with oppression and land theft.

No doubt about it , the brainwashing is complete . 

[Morch]

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

No doubt about it , the brainwashing is complete . 

 

In daily life, most rational people are able to grasp that things are often not black and white.

 

You, apparently, hold that there's only one side responsible for everything to do with this mess.

I keep demonstrating it's a wee bit more complex.

 

Funny, that.

 

[sirineou]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

In daily life, most rational people are able to grasp that things are often not black and white.

 

You, apparently, hold that there's only one side responsible for everything to do with this mess.

I keep demonstrating it's a wee bit more complex.

 

Funny, that.

 

Neither of your statements is correct. 

popular belief is frequently wrong as history exhibits,and I don't believe that in all circumstances only one side is wrong. But in some it applies. 

[Hanaguma]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Neither of your statements is correct. 

popular belief is frequently wrong as history exhibits,and I don't believe that in all circumstances only one side is wrong. But in some it applies. 

True, but in this particular dispute only one side wants to murder every member of the other.  Even in relatively moderate Jordan, less than a quarter of people support a 2 state solution to the Palestinian issue. Troubling is that support is lowest among young Jordanians, which suggests that a solution is a long way away.

 

https://news.gallup.com/poll/512828/palestinians-lack-faith-biden-two-state-solution.aspx

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, Hanaguma said:

True, but in this particular dispute only one side wants to murder every member of the other.  Even in relatively moderate Jordan, less than a quarter of people support a 2 state solution to the Palestinian issue. Troubling is that support is lowest among young Jordanians, which suggests that a solution is a long way away.

 

https://news.gallup.com/poll/512828/palestinians-lack-faith-biden-two-state-solution.aspx

There is no two state solution, it is simply a tactic to kick the can down the road until the Israelis have been living there for so many generations there will be a de facto  elimination of Palestine .

You often seem like a reasonable person in many of your posts.

Tell me does the map below look like it could be a viable independent nation to you? or for than matter to anyone else, Please someone answer that , I have often asked that question and no one has ever answer it, They simply move on to another issue, or comment on my choice of grammatical structure. 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

Neither of your statements is correct. 

popular belief is frequently wrong as history exhibits,and I don't believe that in all circumstances only one side is wrong. But in some it applies. 

 

You failed to demonstrate, or even discuss this in a rational manner, though.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

You failed to demonstrate, or even discuss this in a rational manner, though.

Do I really need to demonstrate  that popular opinion is often wrong? 

and that some times not only one side is wrong?

What else? do I need to demonstrate that the sky is blue. or that the sun rises in the east? 

[Morch]

32 minutes ago, sirineou said:

There is no two state solution, it is simply a tactic to kick the can down the road until the Israelis have been living there for so many generations there will be a de facto  elimination of Palestine .

You often seem like a reasonable person in many of your posts.

Tell me does the map below look like it could be a viable independent nation to you? or for than matter to anyone else, Please someone answer that , I have often asked that question and no one has ever answer it, They simply move on to another issue, or comment on my choice of grammatical structure. 

 

 

Your last comment is patently untrue. I have addressed your posts (and similar comments made on past topics as well).

 

The two-state solution was never super-popular with either side. And sure, the Israeli illegal settlement effot is a major obstacle, even if it's hardly the only issue involved.

 

I don't think that there is an immediate solution given political realities. Even worse, political trends on both sides suggest associated problems will increase. And it is hard to envisage the sort of deus ex machina outside political pressure solving this as being a real proposition. At least not in a way offering a viable, long lasting solution.

 

The 'technical' elements of a possible agreement between the sides are pretty clear.  Everyone not invested in it on a nationalistic or religious level could say what things would have to be done. The issue is with public support and the political situation in both nations.

 

With them 'settlements' in place, there's no viable Palestinian state, without Palestinians dropping their violent 'struggle' and 'river to the sea' claims, there's no Palestinian state either.

 

 

 

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Do I really need to demonstrate  that popular opinion is often wrong? 

and that some times not only one side is wrong?

What else? do I need to demonstrate that the sky is blue. or that the sun rises in the east? 

 

You have failed to demonstrate only one side is responsible.

You have failed to demonstrate that you can discuss this in a rational manner.

[Hanaguma]

51 minutes ago, sirineou said:

There is no two state solution, it is simply a tactic to kick the can down the road until the Israelis have been living there for so many generations there will be a de facto  elimination of Palestine .

You often seem like a reasonable person in many of your posts.

Tell me does the map below look like it could be a viable independent nation to you? or for than matter to anyone else, Please someone answer that , I have often asked that question and no one has ever answer it, They simply move on to another issue, or comment on my choice of grammatical structure. 

 

There is no two state solution. At least as long as one side explicitly calls for the genocide of the other.

 

Imagine crowds of Israel supporters chanting, "From the River to the Sea, All of Israel will be Free!"  Imagine thousands of Israel supporters cheering on butchery and rape and applauding as desecrated and tortured Palestinians are abused.  But that would never happen. 

 

The Palestinians have never had a state, and if they keep it up as now, they never will. They need to cleanse themselves of the virulent anti-Semitism that infests their society from cradle to grave. IMHO a kind of WW2 style "de-Nazification" program is needed. Start with kids in school and teach them peace, not martyrdom. Then, perhaps, they will be mature enough as a society to deserve statehood.

[sirineou]

18 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

There is no two state solution. At least as long as one side explicitly calls for the genocide of the other.

I notice that you also did not address the question I asked. in regard to the map I posted. and is now trying to deflect in a different direction. 

 who did what to whom first and more. It is a game that has been played since I was a kid.

Let me ask you another question, is the roles were reversed and someone showed up in your doorstep saying " Hey dude you need to get out," and you replied, "What do you mean this is my house , we have been living here for countless generation"  and they  replied " that might be but this land was promised to us by god . so off you go" If you are nice we will ley some of you day over there in the back"

If you were in that sinuation what would you do? would you fight or would you bend over? 

 

 

[Hanaguma]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I notice that you also did not address the question I asked. in regard to the map I posted. and is now trying to deflect in a different direction. 

 who did what to whom first and more. It is a game that has been played since I was a kid.

Let me ask you another question, is the roles were reversed and someone showed up in your doorstep saying " Hey dude you need to get out," and you replied, "What do you mean this is my house , we have been living here for countless generation"  and they  replied " that might be but this land was promised to us by god . so off you go" If you are nice we will ley some of you day over there in the back"

If you were in that sinuation what would you do? would you fight or would you bend over? 

 

 

Charming, except that analogy falls through on many levels.  If that had happened to my great grandfather, as is the case with Palestinians now, it would be irrelevant.  There are no Palestinians alive today (or perhaps they number in the low single digits) whose land was stolen in 1948.  

 

And even if you accept that I have claim somehow to my great grandfather's land... if my great grandfather's friends said, "hey, get out of the way, we are gonna roll through and smash our enemies! You can come back later and enjoy the spoils of war", then the friends got beaten, I have no recourse and no right to claim compensation. 

 

Let's be honest. The sticking point isn't the division of land. The sticking point is that a Jewish state exists. And it exists in the middle of an area surrounded by Muslim countries. THAT is the actual problem.  The underlying Jew hatred that is the core of the Middle East troubles is finally coming out, and no amount of UN mealy mouthed wordsmithing will change that.

[sirineou]

3 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Charming, except that analogy falls through on many levels.  If that had happened to my great grandfather, as is the case with Palestinians now, it would be irrelevant. 

Not to your grandfather it won't be, and not to his son, and if the grand son had any respect for his father and his grandfather not to the grandson either.

 

 

[Hanaguma]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

Not to your grandfather it won't be, and not to his son, and if the grand son had any respect for his father and his grandfather not to the grandson either.

 

 

So the option is to carry on old grievances for generations? Strange how that doesn't happen in other places so much. 

 

In any case, would your theory also extend to Jewish people too? Hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced from their homes and land in various Muslim countries in the 1948-1967 era. It would only be fair if THEY were able to return as well, right?

 

Strange though. When the Jews were chased out of Muslim countries, they were welcomed in Israel as brothers. They were given rights, citizenship, and so on.  Why did the same not happen to Palestinians who were similarly displaced?  

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, Hanaguma said:

So the option is to carry on old grievances for generations? Strange how that doesn't happen in other places so much.

The option for any stand up man is to fight for what is his. 

 

2 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

In any case, would your theory also extend to Jewish people too? Hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced from their homes and land in various Muslim countries in the 1948-1967 era. It would only be fair if THEY were able to return as well, right?

Yes indeed, , they should had stayed a fought for what was theirs .

[sirineou]

8 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

So the option is to carry on old grievances for generations? Strange how that doesn't happen in other places so much. 

Are you even listening to yourself?  

The Palestinians should not fight for 75 yar old grievances not the israelis should come and fight for 1500 year old grievances.

Double standard much? 

[Hanaguma]

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Are you even listening to yourself?  

The Palestinians should not fight for 75 yar old grievances not the israelis should come and fight for 1500 year old grievances.

Double standard much? 

No, asking if the same standard should apply. Compensate the Palestinians for their lost land. Also compensate the Jews for theirs.  All of which was lost in the mid 20th century. Sounds fair, doesn't it? 

[Hanaguma]

14 minutes ago, sirineou said:

The option for any stand up man is to fight for what is his. 

 

Yes indeed, , they should had stayed a fought for what was theirs .

You could say the same for the Palestinians in 1948. They should have stayed and fought for what was theirs. Yet, like the Jews in Muslim lands, they didn't.  So now what? 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

I notice that you also did not address the question I asked. in regard to the map I posted. and is now trying to deflect in a different direction. 

 who did what to whom first and more. It is a game that has been played since I was a kid.

Let me ask you another question, is the roles were reversed and someone showed up in your doorstep saying " Hey dude you need to get out," and you replied, "What do you mean this is my house , we have been living here for countless generation"  and they  replied " that might be but this land was promised to us by god . so off you go" If you are nice we will ley some of you day over there in the back"

If you were in that sinuation what would you do? would you fight or would you bend over? 

 

 

 

Complains about games and deflections.

Goes on to make a bogus simplistic analogy.

 

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 The map above is of American Indian lands , are you fighting for their land rights as well ?

It is closer to home for you 

The American indians stayed ,fought like man and died like man they did not run away. 

And Yes I stand for the rights of all human beings be them American Indians, Palestinians , Jewish or any other creed or color.  

What do you stand for?