Please explain the strange dynamics between marriage extension applications and apartment lease durations

[sanooki]

I've been living in Thailand for about 13 years in total, and haven't been out for over 8. I'm on my 3rd consecutive marriage extension since retiring a little over 2 years ago. I had two others with my ex-wife. My wife and I are trying out places where we might want to settle down, so we're on our second location now, in Isaan.

 

Timing apartment moves has been a little tricky due to what I think is an odd requirement by IOs: that one must have a lease that extends for 6 to 12 months after the application date. I'm not sure about the expectations of immigration offices, as well as how the resulting leases are interpreted by landlords.

 

In many places I've stayed, landlords don't even require a lease after the first one expires. One can continue on for months with no problem. But, as soon as immigration gets involved, and especially if the landlord serves as a witness for a marriage extension, things get a little weird. They seem to think they are somehow now responsible for our behavior and whereabouts.

 

Some assumptions: I do not believe a witness to a marriage extension application promises, by signing as a witness, anything other than that she has seen the husband and wife together frequently or believes they are truly living together as husband and wife. As far as leases go, I believe they are promises to pay rent for an apartment for a period of time, on the part of the renter, and promises to allow the renter access for a period of time in exchange for rent, on the part of the landlord.

 

I have never seen in any lease, or in visa and extension documentation, any mention of a promise by the lessee to physically live in an apartment under lease. Sure, I can understand that having a long-term lease is one indicator that a visa holder is seriously domiciled with his wife. But, there is nothing to stop one from having multiple apartments, or from going to the wife's home for a month, or from taking a few weeks vacation, for examples. If an alien moves to another location, I understand it is the responsibility of the new location's owner, and also the alien, to report the new location within a set time period, so that immigration can know where we are.

 

So, excuse the long-winded intro, but why are IOs and landlords often fixated on how long, after a visa extension is granted, one will stay in their apartment? What they should be concerned with is that if I am moving around, does my wife go with me. Right? My extension is predicated on whether I'm really married and living with my wife, right? Not on if I'm staying in one particular place or another. Why should I be made to feel that it's suspicious to travel around this lovely country? I mean, that's a big part of what many are here for, right?

 

Why am I worked up about this, you might ask? Well, my landlord decided to make it a requirement that if I want to use her older sister, who is a poo-baan(elder boss of the moo-ban) as a payan(witness) on my extension applications, I must pay my rent 6 to 12 months in advance. She hit me with this on the morning the police were coming for their marriage visa home visit a few months back. I had no choice but to go along with it. This feels to me more than a bit like extortion, and I'm (understandably?) wanting to find a new place to live. She cannot be reasoned with on this issue.

 

I still have a couple months left on my lease, which is pre-paid at this point, but I want to get out now. Somehow, I feel that the loss on rent that I will endure is not enough for them. They want to guarantee that I stay exactly here until the end of the lease. How is this logical or fair? There's more to this story, but I'll save that for possible discussion.

[Red Phoenix]

Which province are you currently living in?  And when you would move would it be in same province?

Reason I ask is that the 'witness' requirement for Marriage extensions is only a requirement at SOME Imm Offices.

 

[BritTim]

3 hours ago, sanooki said:

Timing apartment moves has been a little tricky due to what I think is an odd requirement by IOs: that one must have a lease that extends for 6 to 12 months after the application date. I'm not sure about the expectations of immigration offices, as well as how the resulting leases are interpreted by landlords.

 

Many offices do, indeed, usually impose that condition. The reason, I think, is that they want to prevent people shopping around for offices with easier extensions, and insisting that you have a long term rental agreement helps to ensure that. Not all offices have that requirement, though, for a marriage extension, they need to be able to verify that you are really living together. You could ask to talk with the senior official to explain your situation, and ask them to waive the requirement. It is not mandatory for an office to impose this condition, just a common practice.

[sanooki]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

Which province are you currently living in?  And when you would move would it be in same province?

Reason I ask is that the 'witness' requirement for Marriage extensions is only a requirement at SOME Imm Offices.

 

Hi. It's downtown Korat. We are looking to move not too far from here. We like Korat and were even interested in keeping our apartment. I know different places have different requirements, such as some only require 1 witness, which is part of why we were caught off-guard on short notice. We also don't know if they will visit every year or only the first time.

[KhunLA]

Leases I had (3) were for short periods, then month to month afterwards, with cancellation allowed by both parties with 30 days notice.   Good for you & landlord, and accepted at IOs that I used, Udon Thani & PKK when having.  Never heard of the dated expiration date of lease being a requirement.

 

Witness of course, at the discretion of IO.  Not needed at Nong Khai, Udon Thani, when using, but required @ PKK.

[sanooki]

1 minute ago, BritTim said:

 

Many offices do, indeed, usually impose that condition. The reason, I think, is that they want to prevent people shopping around for offices with easier extensions, and insisting that you have a long term rental agreement helps to ensure that. Not all offices have that requirement, though, for a marriage extension, they need to be able to verify that you are really living together. You could ask to talk with the senior official to explain your situation, and ask them to waive the requirement. It is not mandatory for an office to impose this condition, just a common practice.

Right. We cleared the hurdle already for this year, but did the extra 6 months lease at the beginning of the month of renewal. One of the staff actually groused a bit that there were less than 6 months on it.

 

What you say about the requirement makes sense, and I can't imagine anyone at immigration will make trouble if we move out before lease end. We did our last two times, and the facts are surely there for them to know, if they care. But, really, I think a lot of this is down to bureaucracy and underlings not understanding the reasoning behind rules. That's what bites us sometimes, unfortunately.

[sanooki]

10 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Leases I had (3) were for short periods, then month to month afterwards, with cancellation allowed by both parties with 30 days notice.   Good for you & landlord, and accepted at IOs that I used, Udon Thani & PKK when having.  Never heard of the dated expiration date of lease being a requirement.

 

Witness of course, at the discretion of IO.  Not needed at Nong Khai, Udon Thani, when using, but required @ PKK.

Nice. I've been surprised at what I've been seeing in Korat.

Edited October 26, 2023 by sanooki
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[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, sanooki said:

Nice. I'm been surprised at what I've been seeing in Korat.

That would be enough bother for me to not even consider living in a province with such silliness.  Even the witness thingy at PKK is silly redundant.   As already been to the house, talked to neighbors.  Witnessed gets asked question, maybe, first time, then signs a statement.

 

My witnesses that I did use here, never met me before going to IO.  Friends of wife.  One she never met, as friend of her brother when using 😂

[Red Phoenix]

36 minutes ago, sanooki said:

... We also don't know if they will visit every year or only the first time.

It is customary that when applying for the 90-day Non Imm O Marriage Visa, that you get an Immigration visit during the 'under consideration' period, this to check whether indeed you and your wife are living together at the address provided.  Such immigration visit can also occur during the 'under consideration' period when having applied for the 90-day Non Imm O Retirement Visa, but is rather rare and province-dependant.

When applying for the 1-year extension based on your Non Imm O Marriage Visa, an Immigration visit is usually conducted again during the 'under consideration period;  (once again to check if you are still living with your wife at the same address). 

1-year extension applications for a Non Imm O Retirement Visa do not have an 'under consideration' period and when all requirements are met the stamp is provided immediately in your passport (or to be collected next day).  So it is extremely rare to receive an Immigration visit when on a 1-year Retirement extension, as there is no reason for local Immigration to check it. 

[sanooki]

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

That would be enough bother for me to not even consider living in a province with such silliness.  Even the witness thingy at PKK is silly redundant.   As already been to the house, talked to neighbors.  Witnessed gets asked question, maybe, first time, then signs a statement.

 

My witnesses that I did use here, never met me before going to IO.  Friends of wife.  One she never met, as friend of her brother when using 😂

The second witness I used I had also never met. But, she was the older sister of my landlord and a pooban here. You'd think she might know of me, or at least would trust her sister to tell her I was a decent tenant. She's the one who insisted on this insanity. I guess she considers herself clever or something.

[sanooki]

7 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

It is customary that when applying for the 90-day Non Imm O Marriage Visa, that you get an Immigration visit during the 'under consideration' period, this to check whether indeed you and your wife are living together at the address provided.  Such immigration visit can also occur during the 'under consideration' period when having applied for the 90-day Non Imm O Retirement Visa, but is rather rare and province-dependant.

When applying for the 1-year extension based on your Non Imm O Marriage Visa, an Immigration visit is usually conducted again during the 'under consideration period;  (once again to check if you are still living with your wife at the same address). 

1-year extension applications for a Non Imm O Retirement Visa do not have an 'under consideration' period and when all requirements are met the stamp is provided immediately in your passport (or to be collected next day).  So it is extremely rare to receive an Immigration visit when on a 1-year Retirement extension, as there is no reason for local Immigration to check it. 

Thanks, I didn't know they can visit for the 90-day retirement visa. I thought the only reason for a visit would be to check the husband and wife situation.

 

I am considering the retirement visa to avoid this in the future, and my other backup is to go for a marriage visa in Savannahket. But these options have drawbacks for me.

[brianthainess]

17 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

So it is extremely rare to receive an Immigration visit when on a 1-year Retirement extension, as there is no reason for local Immigration to check it. 

Its not rare with Trat immigration.

[Red Phoenix]

4 hours ago, brianthainess said:

Its not rare with Trat immigration.

Do you have any idea why Trat Immigration would be paying a visit to someone on a 1-year extension of stay for reason of Retirement? 

That they do it during the under consideration period of a 90-day Non Imm O Retirement Visa application or on the very first 1-year extension of such if you got that 90-day Non Imm O Retirement Visa abroad or at another Imm Office, I can imagine.

But after that check I have no clue why they would be making such a visit. 

Unless the Imm Officers there make you pay for the 'petrol' and expect drinks and lunch while visiting you (or money to pay for their lunch they had or will have on their way to or from your location), as this is sometimes practiced by some of the roguer Imm Offices.

 

[brianthainess]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

Do you have any idea why Trat Immigration would be paying a visit to someone on a 1-year extension of stay for reason of Retirement? 

Coz they can. also 4 photos are required. If anybody gives money then they are just fools to s.

 

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, brianthainess said:

Coz they can. also 4 photos are required. If anybody gives money then they are just fools to

 

Yikes, and the majority of that 10-point list is indeed 'just coz they can' make you jump their Trat Imm Office hoops.

Next time (in 1.5 month) when I do my 1-year extension of stay Retirement application at my SiSaKet office, I will bring a Big Cake for the Imm staff there. It is only when reading the horror-stories at other Imm Offices that I realize how lucky I am dealing with that friendly and efficient office.

For my 1-year Retirement extension I only need to bring 3 things:

- My passport (no copies needed as the Imm office makes them);

- 1 pass-photo;

- A bank-account statement issued on same-day as application, a 1-year bank-transactions statement and my same day updated Bank Pass-book (no copies needed).  So basically a 1-hour visit to my Thai Bank to get that and then off to the Imm Office. 

That's all - and it takes SiSaKet Imm Office approx 15 minutes to provide me with the 1-year Retirement extension stamp in my passport.  

 

[brianthainess]

2 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Yikes, and the majority of that 10-point list is indeed 'just coz they can' make you jump their Trat Imm Office hoops.

Next time (in 1.5 month) when I do my 1-year extension of stay Retirement application at my SiSaKet office, I will bring a Big Cake for the Imm staff there. It is only when reading the horror-stories at other Imm Offices that I realize how lucky I am dealing with that friendly and efficient office.

For my 1-year Retirement extension I only need to bring 3 things:

- My passport (no copies needed as the Imm office makes them);

- 1 pass-photo;

- A bank-account statement issued on same-day as application, a 1-year bank-transactions statement and my same day updated Bank Pass-book (no copies needed).  So basically a 1-hour visit to my Thai Bank to get that and then off to the Imm Office. 

That's all - and it takes SiSaKet Imm Office approx 15 minutes to provide me with the 1-year Retirement extension stamp in my passport.  

 

It takes 15min in my Thai bank and for a retirement extension 1hr so same same but different, So maybe I should give my bank a cake.

Edited October 27, 2023 by brianthainess

[Red Phoenix]

11 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

It takes 15min in my Thai bank and for a retirement extension 1hr so same same but different, So maybe I should give my bank a cake.

Yes, as speedy and efficient my SiSaKet Imm Office is, so slow is my Kasikorn bank branche where even the simplest request takes at least 1/2 hour with copies made of passport, signatures on papers and often - lengthy - telephone calls with HQ to help the staffers there.

E.g. it took them 45 minutes (!) to make the changes to align my bank-account with my new passport. 

[NanLaew]

On 10/26/2023 at 10:53 AM, sanooki said:

Well, my landlord decided to make it a requirement that if I want to use her older sister, who is a poo-baan(elder boss of the moo-ban) as a payan(witness) on my extension applications, I must pay my rent 6 to 12 months in advance. She hit me with this on the morning the police were coming for their marriage visa home visit a few months back. I had no choice but to go along with it. This feels to me more than a bit like extortion, and I'm (understandably?) wanting to find a new place to live. She cannot be reasoned with on this issue.

 

Yes, that is extortion. I hope you manage to find a new place with a more amenable landlord. Someone's seriously milking this pooyai bahn thing.

 

What are the written terms of notice to vacate in your signed lease agreement? Typically, it's 1 month or 30 days. So give them exactly that. You have about 60-days to find a new place and not waste any more time or money on these robbers and what they claim they are entitled to.

 

With regard to not bothering with a lease after renewing or extending beyond the first year, stop playing the Thai landlord's lazy game. To save yourself from 'unexpected' liabilities, always get a new, signed lease. Immigration will want to see it anyway (plus the landlord's tibian bahn and ID card). If a landlord doesn't want to provide any of these, don't deal with them.

 

As for witnesses, I am assuming these multiple needs to provide a witness you mention is due to two separate and non-consecutive extension applications? It should be a one-time thing and doesn't need to be your landlord (especially THIS landlord). In Udon, it was the neighbor's oldest kid from across the street, one time, done. In Jomtien, they didn't need one.

 

You mentioned switching to a Retirement Extension. If the drawbacks you mention aren't insurmountable, do it.

 

You also mentioned getting a 1-year multi-entry visa from Savanakhet. If the drawbacks you mention aren't insurmountable, do that.

Edited October 28, 2023 by NanLaew

[sanooki]

On 10/28/2023 at 11:41 AM, NanLaew said:

 

Yes, that is extortion. I hope you manage to find a new place with a more amenable landlord. Someone's seriously milking this pooyai bahn thing.

 

What are the written terms of notice to vacate in your signed lease agreement? Typically, it's 1 month or 30 days. So give them exactly that. You have about 60-days to find a new place and not waste any more time or money on these robbers and what they claim they are entitled to.

 

With regard to not bothering with a lease after renewing or extending beyond the first year, stop playing the Thai landlord's lazy game. To save yourself from 'unexpected' liabilities, always get a new, signed lease. Immigration will want to see it anyway (plus the landlord's tibian bahn and ID card). If a landlord doesn't want to provide any of these, don't deal with them.

 

As for witnesses, I am assuming these multiple needs to provide a witness you mention is due to two separate and non-consecutive extension applications? It should be a one-time thing and doesn't need to be your landlord (especially THIS landlord). In Udon, it was the neighbor's oldest kid from across the street, one time, done. In Jomtien, they didn't need one.

 

You mentioned switching to a Retirement Extension. If the drawbacks you mention aren't insurmountable, do it.

 

You also mentioned getting a 1-year multi-entry visa from Savanakhet. If the drawbacks you mention aren't insurmountable, do that.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. Since my last post, we've already found a new place in a larger, more professional building that routinely welcomes foreign tenants, and will be taking one-year leases. We've decided we don't want to be here anymore and will be informing her the day before our move, which will be a bit over one month early. I'll gladly take the hit. We will dutifully inform immigration immediately of our new address.

 

I had to go with the landlord and and sister this year because we were caught unaware that they would want two. We tried around our place to find others, but none of them had tabien bahns in-district, which was also a requirement. This poo-bahn knew she had me in a corner, and did take advantage of it. I don't exactly know what it helps anything, as the opposite effect will be had, she will lose a good-paying customer. 

 

This was our first extension here in Korat. We don't know yet if they would come again on a second, but this office seems a bit stricter than others and I've heard sometimes they will do if you don't have a child. I also don't know yet if the visit is triggered by a move in-district.

 

My wife did get a chance to ask if our landlord will do the same next year, and what was her reasoning for what she did. The reply was baffling and illogical. Firstly, she said if we use only her as a witness, we could pay each month normally. But, if we need her sister again, we must pay the rent ahead of time. Secondly, the reasoning she gave was that they once had a foreigner stay who moved out somewhere else after she was a witness, and the police came to check if he was still there. She claimed it was "difficult" for them, without explaining exactly how. 

 

Two problems with this story. One, when we originally looked at the apartment, I emphasized that I would need a witness for my extension. She said, of course, no problem at all. She didn't mention ever having such a problem. I would have never moved here if I would have known. Also, why no problem with one witness even now, yet if I want two I gotta pay through the nose up front?

Two, these people seem to believe that they are guaranteeing to the police that I will live in my apartment continually for the term of the lease. Where is that ever required, and by whom? It's ridiculous. Everyone takes trips, and can have multiple residences. The only thing the witnesses are attesting to is whether they've occasionally seen me together with my wife at the apartment. If I were to go anywhere else, the police would only be interested in whether I was with my wife and my location was legally determinable. Nowhere in any lease ever have I promised I will only stay in that one place. A lease is a guarantee of access to a place for a set fee.

 

The only reasons I prefer the marriage visa in-country are that I may want to work some day, not yet sure, the money requirements are less than the retirement visa, and I prefer not to need to leave the country. None of these are insurmountable if I'm forced, but I'd rather have these options the way they are. Anyways, thanks for the info, and the opportunity to vent. :)