Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Your problem, not mine.

 

  Its not realty a problem though , we just find different things interesting .

You find documents written in 1948 by the U.N to be interesting and you like reading them ,  I don't find them to be interesting at all 

[Thorgal]

18 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Some more light bedtime reading for you is needed.

 

How the term “genocide” is misused in the Israel-Hamas war

The systematic murder of 6m Jews by the Nazis was genocide. The organised butchery of perhaps 500,000 ethnic Tutsis by Hutu militias in Rwanda in 1994 was too.

By the un definition, Hamas is a genocidal organisation. Its founding charter, published in 1988, explicitly commits it to obliterating Israel. Article 7 states that “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them”. Article 13 rejects any compromise, or peace, until Israel is destroyed. Hamas fighters who burst into Israel on October 7th and killed more than 1,400 Israelis (and other nationalities) were carrying out the letter of their genocidal law.

https://archive.ph/O8HpJ

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2023/11/10/how-the-term-genocide-is-misused-in-the-israel-hamas-war

 

 

Hamas uses a new charter since 2017. Why do you refer to the old one from 1988.

 

Watch out the front page of The Economist "The world ahead 2024": it's rather a conspiracy theorist competition quest...

 

Quote from link :

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

 

The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2] It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates the "liberation of all of Palestine".[14][15] The new document also states that the group does not seek war with the Jewish people but only against Zionism which it holds responsible for "occupation of Palestine".[16] Mashal also stated that Hamas was ending its association with the Muslim Brotherhood.[14] After a new charter was scheduled to be issued in May 2017, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office issued a statement in which it accused Hamas of trying to fool the world and also asked it to stop its terror activities for a true change.[17]

[Jeff the Chef]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

And what do you think about what he says, Jeff? What is your take of his analysis?

I think a lot of what he said is about right, I have read the transcript a few times and listened to it too.

I liked the idea of taking both parties to the ICC and letting them decide, at least that would give everybody a starting point for negotiations for a peace process. 

There will have to be a lot of give and take from both sides to get that done though.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

 

Hamas uses a new charter since 2017. Why do you refer to the old one from 1988.

 

Watch out the front page of The Economist "The world ahead 2024": it's rather a conspiracy theorist competition quest...

 

Quote from link :

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

 

The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2] It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates the "liberation of all of Palestine".[14][15] The new document also states that the group does not seek war with the Jewish people but only against Zionism which it holds responsible for "occupation of Palestine".[16] Mashal also stated that Hamas was ending its association with the Muslim Brotherhood.[14] After a new charter was scheduled to be issued in May 2017, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office issued a statement in which it accused Hamas of trying to fool the world and also asked it to stop its terror activities for a true change.[17]

 

  That was invalid , the previous Palestinian charter stated that that one couldn't be replaced updated or modified, making the newer one to be invalid

[JemJem]

There are some different points of view among some members here on the Israel v Palestine issue. But I am almost 100 percent sure that all of us would agree that the atrocities that Hamas did on October 7 is a war crime. Not only that, but also the kidnapping of civilians is also a war crime. 

 

Now, I am curious if the ICC will declare both the military and political leaders (for example Haniyye) of Hamas as war criminals and issue arrest warrants. Putin has been declared a war criminal. In this case, the case is much more straightforward. 

 

I know this procedure takes time but I am curious if ICC will go for them. 

 

Hamas political leaders live outside Palestine, as far as I know. Will those countries hand them over to the ICC, you think?? 

 

 

 

 

[Thorgal]

2 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  That was invalid , the previous Palestinian charter stated that that one couldn't be replaced updated or modified, making the newer one to be invalid

 

Again : Quote from link :

 

The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2] It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates the "liberation of all of Palestine".[

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Again : Quote from link :

 

The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2] It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates the "liberation of all of Palestine".[

 

  Yeah ,  I just replied to that !!!!!!!!

You reply stating the same thing again .

Have you been bitten by a parrot recently ?

[Bkk Brian]

15 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Hamas uses a new charter since 2017. Why do you refer to the old one from 1988.

 

Watch out the front page of The Economist "The world ahead 2024": it's rather a conspiracy theorist competition quest...

 

Quote from link :

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

 

The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2] It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates the "liberation of all of Palestine".[14][15] The new document also states that the group does not seek war with the Jewish people but only against Zionism which it holds responsible for "occupation of Palestine".[16] Mashal also stated that Hamas was ending its association with the Muslim Brotherhood.[14] After a new charter was scheduled to be issued in May 2017, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office issued a statement in which it accused Hamas of trying to fool the world and also asked it to stop its terror activities for a true change.[17]

The troll calling the Economist the conspiracy theorist 😅

 

You can't make this stuff up...lol

[Thorgal]

Just now, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Yeah ,  I just replied to that !!!!!!!!

You reply stating the same thing again .

Have you been bitten by a parrot recently ?

 

The unfamous song : "From the river to the sea..." is no more valid as per latest updated charter.

 

Your personal attack didn't work. Aquila non captat muscas (Eagles don't catch flies...)

[Jeff the Chef]

2 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Stop this nonsense . 

Its getting ridiculous

For the tenth time to five different people .

Can you state the war crimes that Israel have committed 

Its the same every day .

You say Israel committed war crimes , I ask you you name them, you never do 

Then make the same claim again the nest day 

This thread is about the current war , you can have to usual rant against Israel in appropriate threads 

 

52 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Sorry , I don't read links unless you write something yourself and just use a link to back it up .

 

 

33 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Lack of interest TBH , its boring to read

 

25 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Its not realty a problem though , we just find different things interesting .

You find documents written in 1948 by the U.N to be interesting and you like reading them ,  I don't find them to be interesting at all 

I rest my case.

[Jeff the Chef]

Strikes on south Gaza: BBC verifies attacks in areas of ‘safety’

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703

[Morch]

31 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

I think a lot of what he said is about right, I have read the transcript a few times and listened to it too.

I liked the idea of taking both parties to the ICC and letting them decide, at least that would give everybody a starting point for negotiations for a peace process. 

There will have to be a lot of give and take from both sides to get that done though.

 

That would require several things - for starters, recognition of the ICC as an unbiased authority. Given previous stances taken by the ICC (and other UN related bodies), seeing them as impartial and objective is a choice, not an imperative. Just to get you started, look up who got chosen as being in charge of the current 'investigations'.

 

Second, even if both parties agree on the ICC's authority and offer cooperation, there would still be the matter of complying with decisions - the ICC does not command armies, a policing force and so on.

 

Third, the suggestion implies that Hamas is the state-actor representing the Palestinians. I'm not sure that's on, even as far as the Palestinians go.

 

Peace negotiations are not about who's right. They are about reaching a compromise, not necessarily an even-handed one, or a well-liked one.

 

Give and take requires authority - who's got the authority on the Palestinian side?

[Bkk Brian]

15 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Strikes on south Gaza: BBC verifies attacks in areas of ‘safety’

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703

3 weeks old? Covered in the previous topic that is now locked. Yawn

[Morch]

35 minutes ago, JemJem said:

There are some different points of view among some members here on the Israel v Palestine issue. But I am almost 100 percent sure that all of us would agree that the atrocities that Hamas did on October 7 is a war crime. Not only that, but also the kidnapping of civilians is also a war crime. 

 

Now, I am curious if the ICC will declare both the military and political leaders (for example Haniyye) of Hamas as war criminals and issue arrest warrants. Putin has been declared a war criminal. In this case, the case is much more straightforward. 

 

I know this procedure takes time but I am curious if ICC will go for them. 

 

Hamas political leaders live outside Palestine, as far as I know. Will those countries hand them over to the ICC, you think?? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Hamas political leaders would not be in the same position as those leading the military wing. They seem to have been taken by surprise - if not by the attack itself, then by it's timing - and the atrocities committed. Guess this could be used the other way around - with the Palestinians asking the ICC to designate Netanyahu as a war criminal etc. Sounds like a sure way to go for another pointless tit-for-tat.

 

Given Israel's current state of mind, and past experience - there's a fair chance it will take action to make the issue irrelevant.

 

 

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

The unfamous song : "From the river to the sea..." is no more valid as per latest updated charter.

 

Your personal attack didn't work. Aquila non captat muscas (Eagles don't catch flies...)

 

You declaring it irrelevant means less than nothing. The 'new' Hamas Charter does not drop the goal of getting all the land 'from the river to the sea'. It even appears in the quote you provided. On top of that, the 'old' Charter was not cancelled, and is still referenced when it suits.

[Morch]

Meanwhile, at sea.....

 

Houthis seize ship in Red Sea with link to Israeli company

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-houthis-seize-ship-red-sea-no-israelis-among-owners-or-crew-2023-11-19/

 

and...

 

An Israeli-owned ship was targeted in suspected Iranian attack in Indian Ocean, US official tells AP

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/an-israeli-owned-ship-was-targeted-in-suspected-iranian-attack-in-indian-ocean-us-official-tells-ap/ar-AA1kvabZ

 

That's one way of keeping the flames alive.

[JemJem]

25 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

The Hamas political leaders would not be in the same position as those leading the military wing. They seem to have been taken by surprise - if not by the attack itself, then by it's timing - and the atrocities committed. Guess this could be used the other way around - with the Palestinians asking the ICC to designate Netanyahu as a war criminal etc. Sounds like a sure way to go for another pointless tit-for-tat.

 

Given Israel's current state of mind, and past experience - there's a fair chance it will take action to make the issue irrelevant.

 

 

I give it only about 5 percent chance that Hamas political leaders didn't know beforehand about a major attack coming. Whether they had thought that the scale of the attack was going to be much smaller  doesn't absolve them of the responsibility, I think. 

 

 

[Morch]

Just now, JemJem said:

I give it only about 5 percent chance that Hamas political leaders didn't know beforehand about a major attack coming. Whether they had thought that the scale of the attack was going to be much smaller  doesn't absolve them of the responsibility, I think. 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure they were not aware of the date, or the scope. Their initial comments were a bit out of place, and took a while to be issued. That's not how it usually goes. Further, it's not like there's a whole lot of unity and brotherly love among the various Hamas leadership (and within each 'wing'). Add to that Deif being very secretive even on a good day, and it all fits the notion that they weren't 100% in the loop. Same goes, I think, for Hezbollah and Iran.

 

With regard to responsibility, guess it could stick, but given what was posted earlier maybe doesn't matter all that much.

 

If knowledge of the attack plan was in wider circulation, then Israel's intelligence failure is even greater.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

I rest my case.

You had no case, you provided a link to the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. No link in that to Israel 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Thorgal said:

 

The unfamous song : "From the river to the sea..." is no more valid as per latest updated charter.

 

Your personal attack didn't work. Aquila non captat muscas (Eagles don't catch flies...)

Except it is:

 

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

Much like the original, the new document asserts Hamas’s long-standing goal of establishing a sovereign, Islamist Palestinian state that extends, according to Article 2, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea and from the Lebanese border to the Israeli city of Eilat—in other words, through the entirety of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. And it is similarly unequivocal about “the right of return” of all Palestinian refugees displaced as a result of the 1948 and 1967 wars (Article 12)

https://archive.ph/QGQvP

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

 

 

I rest my case.

 

   Any progress in naming those Israeli war crimes from this current war ?

(Just writing them and not posting the first link that appears from google when you put a few choice words in the search box )

[Thorgal]

14 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Except it is:

 

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

Much like the original, the new document asserts Hamas’s long-standing goal of establishing a sovereign, Islamist Palestinian state that extends, according to Article 2, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea and from the Lebanese border to the Israeli city of Eilat—in other words, through the entirety of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. And it is similarly unequivocal about “the right of return” of all Palestinian refugees displaced as a result of the 1948 and 1967 wars (Article 12)

https://archive.ph/QGQvP

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/

 

Where does it states in the latest 2017 Hamas Charter about the so called "genocide of Jews between the river and the sea"?

 

It's rather misleading and false to cumulate and/or mix both charters of Hamas...to pinpoint (justify) any topics in latest 2023 conflict.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

 

Where does it states in the latest 2017 Hamas Charter about the so called "genocide of Jews between the river and the sea"?

 

It's rather misleading and false to cumulate and/or mix both charters of Hamas...to pinpoint (justify) any topics in latest 2023 conflict.

Who mentioned the term genocide was ever in the charter?

 

Trolling again, I just quoted the relevant articles in the link

Edited November 25, 2023 by Bkk Brian

[Thorgal]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Who mentioned the term genocide was ever in the charter?

 

Trolling again, I just quoted the relevant articles in the link

 

Thanks, you confirm what I was saying : there's no Judeophobic content in latest 2017 Hamas charter to kill all Jews between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

 

Thanks, you confirm what I was saying : there's no Judeophobic content in latest 2017 Hamas charter to kill all Jews between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea.

No you confirmed you were baiting as per usual and completely ignored the reference made to the article and its contents

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, Thorgal said:

 

Again : Quote from link :

 

The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejected recognition of Israel, which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2] It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates the "liberation of all of Palestine".[

 

  In 2017 ?

That ship has already sailed .

Its no longer in Israel's interests to help Palestine get a Country .

More Jewish settlements in the West Bank  and shrinking Gaza is in Israel's interests 

Sorry Pallys, your ships sailed about 30 years ago and the Worlds moved on since then 

[Thorgal]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No you confirmed you were baiting as per usual and completely ignored the reference made to the article and its contents

 

The new charter states that Hamas’ conflict is with Zionism, not Jews. LOL

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Thorgal said:

 

The unfamous song : "From the river to the sea..." is no more valid as per latest updated charter.

 

Your personal attack didn't work. Aquila non captat muscas (Eagles don't catch flies...)

What is it you don't understand about this, your claim above is false:

 

35 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Except it is:

 

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

Much like the original, the new document asserts Hamas’s long-standing goal of establishing a sovereign, Islamist Palestinian state that extends, according to Article 2, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea and from the Lebanese border to the Israeli city of Eilat—in other words, through the entirety of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. And it is similarly unequivocal about “the right of return” of all Palestinian refugees displaced as a result of the 1948 and 1967 wars (Article 12)

https://archive.ph/QGQvP

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/

Now again stop the tedious trolling, that's how the last topic got locked because of disruption like this

[Nick Carter icp]

2 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

 

 

I rest my case.

 

   I reason why I don't open links with no supporting words is because some people make outlandish claims, claims which are untrue and when asked to provide  proof , they just do a webseach with a few connected words in, post a random link and say "Read that , the proof is in there somewhere" and I send ten minutes reading through their links searching for proof and more often than not, its not even there 

[Thorgal]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

What is it you don't understand about this, your claim above is false:

 

Now again stop the tedious trolling, that's how the last topic got locked because of disruption like this

 

No problem. Case closed for me as per your request.

 

But you've quoted an article/analysis from Bruce Hoffman in The Atlantic.

He's too biased for me to analyze the latest 2017 Hamas charter because he's an Israeli citizen too.

 

Quote from link :

He was goalkeeper for the Israeli National Field Hockey team in 1979 and 1980.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Hoffman