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Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)


CharlieH

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4 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   This is a war between Israel and Hamas .

This isn't a World war between Muslims and Jews 

There are some people who still consider this to be part of the final solution to the Jews "problem" , but its just a localised war in the Middle East between two warring factions .

   Palestinian supporters  want a final solution , not everyone in the world does though

 

 

Oh no, there we have to go back to nazi, SS, WW2, etc topics to be merged into this recent topic to justify war crimes & crimes against humanity commited by Israel, but it's not OK to discuss the Palestinian cause prior to 7th of October 2023...

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Douglas Murray witnessed some of the horrific attacks on the Israelis Oct 7th, here he recounts the horrors of what he saw from the footage, and some people are still in denial of these crimes and prefer to ignore them or excuse them, let's hope we never have another Oct 7th.😟

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14 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Professor Jeroen Gunning discusses Hamas' strategy after the 7 October attack, its organisational structures and regional relations, and shares his thoughts on how the war will end.

 

 

 

 

And what do you think about what he says, Jeff? What is your take of his analysis?

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31 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Professor Jeroen Gunning discusses Hamas' strategy after the 7 October attack, its organisational structures and regional relations, and shares his thoughts on how the war will end.

 

 

 

 

Clean. unbiased opinion.

 

I'm glad he didn't felt into the trap of polarization in his speech.

 

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12 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

The US cannot stop the war. Israel is going to fight back no matter what, and the foot soldiers of Hamas---if they are true believers in Islam---believe life is an illusion whose sole purpose is to bide time before gaining paradise, ideally as a martyr. If their own kids die, so be it, as it is assumed they, too, will make it to paradise. They will not stop either.

 

I don't think anyone who hasn't lived in the ME and had close association with true believers can even begin to understand the all-consuming power of that belief. Even Evangelicals in the US (like the current House Speaker) are mere posseurs in comparison.

 

The Hamas leadership, comfortably safe (maybe) in Doha, cannot really control their foot soldiers. Hamas foot soldiers have that 'old time religion'. Islam was founded as a religion of conquest, where Mohd was essentially Genghis Khan with a faith. After 632AD Islam slaughtered/converted its way across North Africa up into Spain. It morphed slightly into having a profit motive, but that element was crushed by Charles Martel at Tours in 732AD. Subsequently, a moderate form of Islam arose where 'jihad' was viewed as a personal moral struggle rather than its original intent of killing or converting infidels. Read the Koran in Arabic, and no doubt is left about what jihad means. Some pockets of Islam really need a Reformation, just as Christianity and Judaism needed their own (the Old Testament allows lots of viciousness, and the New Testament, among other things, allowed Catholics to grant the Pope way too much power, plus the NT allowed for slavery, which fortunately humanists eventually abolished...religions are not known for being founts of morality.)

 

Israel has certainly done some nasty things in its time, but it has endured long enough so that it has many fewer foes than in 1948. Egypt kind of washed its hands of Gaza. Jordan is fairly liberal, at least in its palace, and survives via largesse from the US, which it will not risk. The Gulf States are enjoying their dissolute lifestyle of "palaces, broads and booze", so only offer meaningless verbal support of Palestinians. Iran is a wild card, but the mullahs have their own domestic issues, so are unlikely to get too involved. Syria is experiencing a civil war, while Lebanon is a failed state. Israel is left facing the fanatics of Hamas, and maybe some Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. Unfortunately, the sins of the fanatics fall on to the innocent in Gaza.

 

The US is merely trying to calm things down and hope for restraint by the IDF so that innocent Palestinian lives lost are minimized. For lack of a better term, this current war is a sideshow to the US, where the much more significant war is in Ukraine. The ME has been largely contained to between Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah, and has little chance of spreading wider. Ukraine has much more significant (to US geopolitics) implications, as the US knows full well that russia will not stop at Ukraine if it wins. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, eastern Poland, eastern Romania, the Czech Republic, Hungary, even eastern Germany would subsequently be under threat. That has far more significance to the US than Israel/Palestine. That's a harsh reality, but it is fact.

 

The threads on this issue get 10,000 comments because many people feel they have a closer connection to it. Ukraine, of infinitely more global significance, draws fewer reactions and less virulent reactions. Many more innocents have been slaughtered in Ukraine, but it doesn't elicit the same degree of emotionalism, not only on this Forum, but in the streets of European and American cities. Russia is absolutely, 100% purposely targeting civilians/schools/hosptials/etc. There is no doubt, while there is room for doubt with the IDF. Still, a million take to the street in the UK over Gaza, but maybe a few thousand in one and a half years of the russian invasion of Ukraine.

 

Overall, one of the finer posts on these topics. Thank you for the perspective.

 

I would argue some minor points, though -

 

The level of religious conviction and indoctrination does not run quite as deep as sometimes assumed. Watching some of the clips (granted, released by Israel) of captured Hamas men, it would seem there's a gap between the image of 'holy warriors' and what actually took place, which some seem to have difficulty bridging. I think that while religious indoctrination is a powerful tool, it is also open to disillusionment - which may have a more lasting effect (at least I hope so). Even among Palestinians civilians interviewed, there is often a reluctance to accept the reality of the atrocities committed - as they run counter to other interpretations of Islam.

 

Jordan's population is of ~70% Palestinian origins. So while 'true' Jordanians may be less invested in the Palestinian struggle, more 'liberal' (though not anywhere near 'liberal' in reality) and aware of the country's need for USA support - it's, IMO a time bomb. Eventually there will be a power shift, or a more successful power struggle than the 1970 thing.

 

The issue with Iran was never (IMO) direct involvement. Iran does not operate this way, certainly not under prevailing conditions. In that regard, leaving the Hamas out in the cold was pretty much expected. But on the other hand, Iran's way of working through proxies means in can cause a whole lot of problems, and widen the circle of violence by spreading the conflict to additional arenas. That Iran does not (apparently) fully control all of it's proxies adds to the danger of things getting out of hand.

 

On the larger subject of global reactions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict vs. the Russia-Ukraine one - this is were religion and prejudice play their part. This goes back to religion (and bigotry) being more emotional, powerful motivators than 'ordinary' politics.

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2 hours ago, Thorgal said:

 

Oh no, there we have to go back to nazi, SS, WW2, etc topics to be merged into this recent topic to justify war crimes & crimes against humanity commited by Israel, but it's not OK to discuss the Palestinian cause prior to 7th of October 2023...

 

   Stop this nonsense . 

Its getting ridiculous

For the tenth time to five different people .

Can you state the war crimes that Israel have committed 

Its the same every day .

You say Israel committed war crimes , I ask you you name them, you never do 

Then make the same claim again the nest day 

This thread is about the current war , you can have to usual rant against Israel in appropriate threads 

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39 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Don't blame others of which you are guilty. You are the one that wished the Israelis bad happenings and then you go and attack a reporter and say that he is not being honest in his findings. You cannot go on forever denying these gruesome killings, it is dishonest and the victims of Oct 7th deserve better.

Who's denying the gruesome atrocities of Hamas on the 7th, not me, what I think of some of the reporting is that it is somewhat biased towards Israel's conduct prior to the 7th.

People not taking into consideration Israel's apartheid/treatment of Palestinians since they left Gaza in 2005, as I've said before you reap what you sow.

And before you start, I'm sure Hamas knew the consequences of what happened on the 7th as well.

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10 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Who's denying the gruesome atrocities of Hamas on the 7th, not me, what I think of some of the reporting is that it is somewhat biased towards Israel's conduct prior to the 7th.

People not taking into consideration Israel's apartheid/treatment of Palestinians since they left Gaza in 2005, as I've said before you reap what you sow.

And before you start, I'm sure Hamas knew the consequences of what happened on the 7th as well.

Whilst you're down in your hole Mr Denier. This is what you said about Douglas Murrays video⬇️⬇️⬇️, you are like a holocaust denier, if you admitted the truth you would not have an argument!

You denied it and if you think they're going to show these brutal sadistic crimes to the likes of you and me, well I am relieved, but obviously not you eh!

 

2 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Another load of talk but no visible evidence.

Murray is known for his criticism of immigration and Islam.

Critics claim his views and ideology are linked to far-right political ideologies, and accuse him of promoting far-right conspiracy theories such as the Eurabia, the Great Replacement, and Cultural Marxism conspiracy theories

 

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18 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Who's denying the gruesome atrocities of Hamas on the 7th, not me, what I think of some of the reporting is that it is somewhat biased towards Israel's conduct prior to the 7th.

People not taking into consideration Israel's apartheid/treatment of Palestinians since they left Gaza in 2005, as I've said before you reap what you sow.

And before you start, I'm sure Hamas knew the consequences of what happened on the 7th as well.

 

 Palestinian  living in Gaza are NOT Israeli citizens , of course they aren't going to have the same rights as as Israeli citizens .

  Israel have placed restrictions on what they allow into Gaza to try and stop Hamas attacking Israel , 

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1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Stop this nonsense . 

Its getting ridiculous

For the tenth time to five different people .

Can you state the war crimes that Israel have committed 

Its the same every day .

You say Israel committed war crimes , I ask you you name them, you never do 

Then make the same claim again the nest day 

This thread is about the current war , you can have to usual rant against Israel in appropriate threads 

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/1948-convention.shtml

Some light bedtime reading for you.

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2 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Whilst you're down in your hole Mr Denier. This is what you said about Douglas Murrays video⬇️⬇️⬇️, you are like a holocaust denier, if you admitted the truth you would not have an argument!

You denied it and if you think they're going to show these brutal sadistic crimes to the likes of you and me, well I am relieved, but obviously not you eh!

 

 

Whatever

 

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9 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/1948-convention.shtml

Some light bedtime reading for you.

Some more light bedtime reading for you is needed.

 

How the term “genocide” is misused in the Israel-Hamas war

The systematic murder of 6m Jews by the Nazis was genocide. The organised butchery of perhaps 500,000 ethnic Tutsis by Hutu militias in Rwanda in 1994 was too.

By the un definition, Hamas is a genocidal organisation. Its founding charter, published in 1988, explicitly commits it to obliterating Israel. Article 7 states that “The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them”. Article 13 rejects any compromise, or peace, until Israel is destroyed. Hamas fighters who burst into Israel on October 7th and killed more than 1,400 Israelis (and other nationalities) were carrying out the letter of their genocidal law.

https://archive.ph/O8HpJ

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2023/11/10/how-the-term-genocide-is-misused-in-the-israel-hamas-war

 
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3 hours ago, Walker88 said:

The US cannot stop the war. Israel is going to fight back no matter what, and the foot soldiers of Hamas---if they are true believers in Islam---believe life is an illusion whose sole purpose is to bide time before gaining paradise, ideally as a martyr. If their own kids die, so be it, as it is assumed they, too, will make it to paradise. They will not stop either.

 

I don't think anyone who hasn't lived in the ME and had close association with true believers can even begin to understand the all-consuming power of that belief. Even Evangelicals in the US (like the current House Speaker) are mere posseurs in comparison.

 

The Hamas leadership, comfortably safe (maybe) in Doha, cannot really control their foot soldiers. Hamas foot soldiers have that 'old time religion'. Islam was founded as a religion of conquest, where Mohd was essentially Genghis Khan with a faith. After 632AD Islam slaughtered/converted its way across North Africa up into Spain. It morphed slightly into having a profit motive, but that element was crushed by Charles Martel at Tours in 732AD. Subsequently, a moderate form of Islam arose where 'jihad' was viewed as a personal moral struggle rather than its original intent of killing or converting infidels. Read the Koran in Arabic, and no doubt is left about what jihad means. Some pockets of Islam really need a Reformation, just as Christianity and Judaism needed their own (the Old Testament allows lots of viciousness, and the New Testament, among other things, allowed Catholics to grant the Pope way too much power, plus the NT allowed for slavery, which fortunately humanists eventually abolished...religions are not known for being founts of morality.)

 

Israel has certainly done some nasty things in its time, but it has endured long enough so that it has many fewer foes than in 1948. Egypt kind of washed its hands of Gaza. Jordan is fairly liberal, at least in its palace, and survives via largesse from the US, which it will not risk. The Gulf States are enjoying their dissolute lifestyle of "palaces, broads and booze", so only offer meaningless verbal support of Palestinians. Iran is a wild card, but the mullahs have their own domestic issues, so are unlikely to get too involved. Syria is experiencing a civil war, while Lebanon is a failed state. Israel is left facing the fanatics of Hamas, and maybe some Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. Unfortunately, the sins of the fanatics fall on to the innocent in Gaza.

 

The US is merely trying to calm things down and hope for restraint by the IDF so that innocent Palestinian lives lost are minimized. For lack of a better term, this current war is a sideshow to the US, where the much more significant war is in Ukraine. The ME has been largely contained to between Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah, and has little chance of spreading wider. Ukraine has much more significant (to US geopolitics) implications, as the US knows full well that russia will not stop at Ukraine if it wins. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, eastern Poland, eastern Romania, the Czech Republic, Hungary, even eastern Germany would subsequently be under threat. That has far more significance to the US than Israel/Palestine. That's a harsh reality, but it is fact.

 

The threads on this issue get 10,000 comments because many people feel they have a closer connection to it. Ukraine, of infinitely more global significance, draws fewer reactions and less virulent reactions. Many more innocents have been slaughtered in Ukraine, but it doesn't elicit the same degree of emotionalism, not only on this Forum, but in the streets of European and American cities. Russia is absolutely, 100% purposely targeting civilians/schools/hosptials/etc. There is no doubt, while there is room for doubt with the IDF. Still, a million take to the street in the UK over Gaza, but maybe a few thousand in one and a half years of the russian invasion of Ukraine.

Interesting info, thanks,

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