Iran says it helped broker release of Thais held in Gaza

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Which (non DIY) weapons did Hamas purchased with foreign funds ?

 

Please provide proof that Iran was participating in the 7th October attack against Israel ? 

 

I don't think the claim was that Iran participated in the 7/10 attack. Don't think you missed it either. You make a wholesale denial of any Iranian connection or knowledge - based on Iran's claims.

 

If you think the Hamas is capable of producing anti-tank missiles, or that all of the weapons in its possession are home-made, DiY stuff - then you're either misinformed, or more likely, knowingly posting lies. This was covered, in detail on recent past topics, where you tried this nonsense as well. Give it a rest, troll.

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Pure sort of Iranian McCarthyism. 

 

Hamas could not provide 100% full safety of the Israeli hostages due to constant Israeli carpet bombing.

 

Hamas could not provide 100% full comfort as food, medicines, healthcare etc... to the Israeli hostages due to blockade of Israel and the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza hospitals.

 

Anything else that smelts bad ?

 

There were no 'carpet bombings'. Same goes for 'indiscriminate'. You're trolling again.

Spin it as much as you like, once Hamas abducted the hostages, their safety is on Hamas.

[Bkk Brian]

30 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Pure sort of Iranian McCarthyism. 

 

Hamas could not provide 100% full safety of the Israeli hostages due to constant Israeli carpet bombing.

 

Hamas could not provide 100% full comfort as food, medicines, healthcare etc... to the Israeli hostages due to blockade of Israel and the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza hospitals.

 

Anything else that smelts bad ?

Anything else that smelts bad ?

 

Yes plenty. The treatment of the hostages was not all about food, safety and medicine. But then I guess you remain ignorant to the links previously provided on the inhumane treatment of some of them that have so far been documented. As you remain ignorant on your accusation that Israel was indiscriminately bombing Gaza hospitals.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, H1w4yR1da said:

Biased? Your posts stink of support for Hamas and Iran. Saying that Israeli hostages were well-treated after seeing their family members murdered by Hamas gunmen.

The fact that you take anything the Iranian government says, with absolutely no proof, as gospel is, frankly, hilarious. And highly suspect.

He's our resident Hamas supporter, but you've already worked that out I think.

[scottiejohn]

2 hours ago, H1w4yR1da said:

The fact that you take anything the Iranian government says, with absolutely no proof, as gospel is, frankly, hilarious. And highly suspect.

 

I hope you meant to say;

"The fact that you take anything the Iranian government says, with absolutely no proof, as gospel is, frankly, hilarious disgusting and obnoxious. And highly suspect.

 

 

I say this as I find nothing hilarious about the Hamas and their supporters!

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by scottiejohn

[Thorgal]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think the claim was that Iran participated in the 7/10 attack. Don't think you missed it either. You make a wholesale denial of any Iranian connection or knowledge - based on Iran's claims.

 

If you think the Hamas is capable of producing anti-tank missiles, or that all of the weapons in its possession are home-made, DiY stuff - then you're either misinformed, or more likely, knowingly posting lies. This was covered, in detail on recent past topics, where you tried this nonsense as well. Give it a rest, troll.

 

Hamas DIY weapons manufacturing #1

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrU_BjMuUec

 

[Thorgal]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think the claim was that Iran participated in the 7/10 attack. Don't think you missed it either. You make a wholesale denial of any Iranian connection or knowledge - based on Iran's claims.

 

If you think the Hamas is capable of producing anti-tank missiles, or that all of the weapons in its possession are home-made, DiY stuff - then you're either misinformed, or more likely, knowingly posting lies. This was covered, in detail on recent past topics, where you tried this nonsense as well. Give it a rest, troll.

 

Hamas DIY weapons factory #2 :

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANczYpLFNxw&t=107s

 

 

[Thorgal]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

There were no 'carpet bombings'. Same goes for 'indiscriminate'. You're trolling again.

Spin it as much as you like, once Hamas abducted the hostages, their safety is on Hamas.

(military analyst says)

 

Quote from link : 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-using-big-bombs-weighing-1-000-to-2-000-pounds-gaza-report-2023-11?r=US&IR=T

 

- Most of the bombs Israel is using in Gaza are exceptionally big, weighing 1,000 to 2,000 pounds.

- The use of such large bombs on such a small area might only compare to Vietnam or World War II, an analyst said.

- The size and scale of the bombing is raising the civilian death toll, analysts told The New York Times.

 

This was debunked more than once in previous topic #1.

Awaiting some revisionist reply that Vietnam and during WW2 no carpet bombing happened...

[scottiejohn]

7 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

Quote from link : 

Which is of course a totally impartial source, or is it?

  PAX is the largest peace organization in the Netherlands - PAX (paxforpeace.nl)

 

FYI the largest bombs are 22,000lbs!

Edited November 30, 2023 by scottiejohn

[Thorgal]

10 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Which is of course a totally impartial source, or is it?

  PAX is the largest peace organization in the Netherlands - PAX (paxforpeace.nl)

 

Quote from same link :

 

"It's beyond anything that I've seen in my career," Marc Garlasco, a military advisor for the Dutch organization PAX and a former senior intelligence analyst at the Pentagon, told The New York Times.

 

Sounds reasonable as he reported to NYTimes. At least it's not a random arm chair expert...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Garlasco

 

Quote from same link :

 

- By comparison, US military officials felt that the 500-pound aerial bomb was too large to use on most Islamic State targets in urban parts of Mosul, Iraq, and Raqqa, Syria.

- The Gaza Strip is just 141 square miles with a population of around two million people, making it one of the most densely populated places in the world.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Thorgal

[Bkk Brian]

21 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Hamas DIY weapons factory #2 :

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANczYpLFNxw&t=107s

 

 

Did you note the poster you were responding to was referring to anti tank missiles? No of course not, we all know that Hamas makes its own weaponry but not all, that was the point and you know it.

 

Hamas Says It Received RPG Launchers

BEIRUT - The Palestinian militant group Hamas said Tuesday it has received a large number of rocket-propelled grenade launchers

https://archive.ph/P7J95

https://www.haaretz.com/2003-01-14/ty-article/hamas-says-it-received-rpg-launchers/0000017f-f56f-ddde-abff-fd6fb83c0000

 

https://en.defence-ua.com/analysis/where_did_hamas_get_rare_rpg_7s_with_tandem_charge_efp_anti_tank_weapons_and_manpads-8209.html

[Morch]

45 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

(military analyst says)

 

Quote from link : 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-using-big-bombs-weighing-1-000-to-2-000-pounds-gaza-report-2023-11?r=US&IR=T

 

- Most of the bombs Israel is using in Gaza are exceptionally big, weighing 1,000 to 2,000 pounds.

- The use of such large bombs on such a small area might only compare to Vietnam or World War II, an analyst said.

- The size and scale of the bombing is raising the civilian death toll, analysts told The New York Times.

 

This was debunked more than once in previous topic #1.

Awaiting some revisionist reply that Vietnam and during WW2 no carpet bombing happened...

 

You cherry pick from an article which contains a counter explanation just bellow as to why these bombs were used.

This was not 'debunked' now, nor on the previous topic.

This ain't carpet bombing, and this wasn't claimed even n the quote you cherry picked.

[Morch]

33 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Quote from same link :

 

"It's beyond anything that I've seen in my career," Marc Garlasco, a military advisor for the Dutch organization PAX and a former senior intelligence analyst at the Pentagon, told The New York Times.

 

Sounds reasonable as he reported to NYTimes. At least it's not a random arm chair expert...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Garlasco

 

Quote from same link :

 

- By comparison, US military officials felt that the 500-pound aerial bomb was too large to use on most Islamic State targets in urban parts of Mosul, Iraq, and Raqqa, Syria.

- The Gaza Strip is just 141 square miles with a population of around two million people, making it one of the most densely populated places in the world.

 

The same article you linked and cherry picked from contains a counter explanation, which you chose to disregard.

 

[H1w4yR1da]

On 11/30/2023 at 3:35 PM, Thorgal said:

 

Pure sort of Iranian McCarthyism. 

 

Hamas could not provide 100% full safety of the Israeli hostages due to constant Israeli carpet bombing.

 

Hamas could not provide 100% full comfort as food, medicines, healthcare etc... to the Israeli hostages due to blockade of Israel and the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza hospitals.

 

Anything else that smelts bad ?

There's no carpet bombing. The hospital was hit by a rocket from Islamic Jihad. A proven fact. Hamas uses hospitals as military bases. A proven fact. As I said, your posts stink of support for Hamas.

[placnx]

On 11/30/2023 at 2:49 PM, Morch said:

 

You're roundabout description of the Israeli proposal at the time is inaccurate. The issue was not so much with the offer on hand being a 'Swiss cheese' thing, but rather the West Bank area to be retained by the Palestinians being effectively split into 2-3 'cantons' (with territorial congruity within each such land parcel) - this was one major point of contention, the other being the haggling over exact scale of territorial land swaps. Under the Israeli offer (at the time) many Israeli settlements (especially the smaller one spread about the West Bank) would have been dismantled. Arafat's rejection was, I think, more to do with his personal inability to let go of the 'struggle', opposition within the Palestinian side, and perceived lack of support for the offer on the Israeli side.

 

One thing to take away from this is that the rejection did nothing to improve the situation of the Palestinians. In effect, it made things worse.

 

As for your 'diffuse' assertion, I think more like wishful thinking on your part - even if there was a possibility for such a workable two-state solution acceptable to both sides, and not sabotaged by their respective extremists.

I just remember "Swiss cheese" from leaks at the time (2000). There were three cantons proposed, not including East Jerusalem. See sections 'Territorial contiguity' and 'East Jerusalem' in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit The proposal on the table wasn't acceptable to the Palestinians, so then the White House put forth the Clinton Parameters to bridge the gaps. Israel issued 20 pages of reservations. Idem: 'Aftermath'

 

Arafat was feeling responsible not only to his own people, but to all Muslims, so the Jerusalem provisions were crucial in the failure of Camp David. IMO. 

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, placnx said:

I just remember "Swiss cheese" from leaks at the time (2000). There were three cantons proposed, not including East Jerusalem. See sections 'Territorial contiguity' and 'East Jerusalem' in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit The proposal on the table wasn't acceptable to the Palestinians, so then the White House put forth the Clinton Parameters to bridge the gaps. Israel issued 20 pages of reservations. Idem: 'Aftermath'

 

Arafat was feeling responsible not only to his own people, but to all Muslims, so the Jerusalem provisions were crucial in the failure of Camp David. IMO. 

 

Both sides had issues with respective views, and that's how these things go. No surprises. I don't think that there was much goodwill on either side (and the same holds today) of the negotiating table. It was more a mixture of political necessities, mixed with convictions that an arrangement ought to be reached, but hamstrung by mutual distrust, disgust and domestic political pressures.

 

Arafat was taking care to present himself as representing Muslim interests. Not actually very devout or invested in religion, as far as I'm aware. The same goes on today, with this angle mostly being played for political gains.

[placnx]

On 11/30/2023 at 7:04 PM, Morch said:

 

You cherry pick from an article which contains a counter explanation just bellow as to why these bombs were used.

This was not 'debunked' now, nor on the previous topic.

This ain't carpet bombing, and this wasn't claimed even n the quote you cherry picked.

I looked at the link, and don't see any countering, unless you mean a denial by Jonathan Conricus, blaming the victims pap.

The link in question: https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-using-big-bombs-weighing-1-000-to-2-000-pounds-gaza-report-2023-11?r=US&IR=T

Edited December 2, 2023 by placnx

[placnx]

6 hours ago, H1w4yR1da said:

There's no carpet bombing. The hospital was hit by a rocket from Islamic Jihad. A proven fact. Hamas uses hospitals as military bases. A proven fact. As I said, your posts stink of support for Hamas.

Still waiting for real evidence that Hamas was using hospitals for military bases. 

[placnx]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Both sides had issues with respective views, and that's how these things go. No surprises. I don't think that there was much goodwill on either side (and the same holds today) of the negotiating table. It was more a mixture of political necessities, mixed with convictions that an arrangement ought to be reached, but hamstrung by mutual distrust, disgust and domestic political pressures.

 

Arafat was taking care to present himself as representing Muslim interests. Not actually very devout or invested in religion, as far as I'm aware. The same goes on today, with this angle mostly being played for political gains.

These leaders on both sides from 1947 on bear ultimate responsibility for acts committed in total violation of the 10 Commandments.

 

In the end, the only peace possible will be one imposed by the international community after the US ends up isolated from not only the Global South, but most of the G7 nations. The last holdout there will probably be the UK, which bears historical responsibility for the current mess.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, placnx said:

Still waiting for real evidence that Hamas was using hospitals for military bases. 

 

Can't watch news for you. There were clips of the tunnels under the al-Shifa hospital, there were testimonies of foreign doctors and staff who worked there, and Hamas men spoke of it. Your choice to deny it.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, placnx said:

I looked at the link, and don't see any countering, unless you mean a denial by Jonathan Conricus, blaming the victims pap.

The link in question: https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-using-big-bombs-weighing-1-000-to-2-000-pounds-gaza-report-2023-11?r=US&IR=T

 

That you dismiss something doesn't mean is not true. I didn't see it as blaming the victims, guess that's your interpretation.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, placnx said:

These leaders on both sides from 1947 on bear ultimate responsibility for acts committed in total violation of the 10 Commandments.

 

In the end, the only peace possible will be one imposed by the international community after the US ends up isolated from not only the Global South, but most of the G7 nations. The last holdout there will probably be the UK, which bears historical responsibility for the current mess.

 

What are you on about with the 10 Commandments? How does this even relate?

 

Allow me to doubt your geo-political predictions, and refuse to treat them as a sure thing the way you do.

 

You seem to have very little of substance to add to the discussion.

[placnx]

32 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Can't watch news for you. There were clips of the tunnels under the al-Shifa hospital, there were testimonies of foreign doctors and staff who worked there, and Hamas men spoke of it. Your choice to deny it.

Let's wait to pass judgement until there can be international observers who can look freely, not on an IDF guided tour. That would mean that IDF should hold off on dropping bunker busters on al-Shifa. 

[placnx]

30 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

What are you on about with the 10 Commandments? How does this even relate?

 

Allow me to doubt your geo-political predictions, and refuse to treat them as a sure thing the way you do.

 

You seem to have very little of substance to add to the discussion.

10 Commandments: I find it ironic that the whole settler enterprise is spearheaded by "religious" Jews, who commit murder, etc, with government-issued weapons. Long before this, a settler murdered Rabin. Supposedly blessed by a rabbi?

 

So as to Arafat's religiosity, that is not the point on which to judge the question of his concern for the Muslim community's interest in Jerusalem. Muslims are more or less religious, but they all have a high concern about Jerusalem IMO. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

Let's wait to pass judgement until there can be international observers who can look freely, not on an IDF guided tour. That would mean that IDF should hold off on dropping bunker busters on al-Shifa. 

 

The IDF did not plan to drop 'bunker busters' on any hospital. If that was the case the long standoff which allowed Hamas to clear off would not have happened. I'm aware you have issues with Israel, but try and keep things real, please. What 'international observers' would these be? Did the Hamas ever allow such to tour around? You want to deny the existence of tunnels, or any other thing Hamas does - go right ahead. You really don't have to make up excuses, you don't believe it, and that's it.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Morch

[Morch]

1 hour ago, placnx said:

10 Commandments: I find it ironic that the whole settler enterprise is spearheaded by "religious" Jews, who commit murder, etc, with government-issued weapons. Long before this, a settler murdered Rabin. Supposedly blessed by a rabbi?

 

So as to Arafat's religiosity, that is not the point on which to judge the question of his concern for the Muslim community's interest in Jerusalem. Muslims are more or less religious, but they all have a high concern about Jerusalem IMO. 

 

Oh, I see - you start by commenting on both sides but now make it clear that this bit was reserved for one of them only. Thought that moment of semi objectivity was odd.

 

The second bit is, again, one of them odd pronouncement of yours. Why is it not the point when cynical politicians use religious sentiments to incite violence, to make excuses for policies and so on?

[jacko45k]

On 11/27/2023 at 1:58 PM, John Drake said:

 

I thought everyone agreed that the Thais (and Filipinos and other SE Asian farmworkers) were innocent bystanders. What's there to negotiate. Just hand them over. They're not part of this war. Why is "negotiation" even a factor, here? They know where they are and how to get them out. But Hamas is simply extending the agony and terror for as long as they can get some psychopathic satisfaction out of it. Let the Thais and third party nationals all go.

I am not sure everyone  agreed to that point.  Some Palestinians regarded them as complicit in taking jobs from them.  It puts an international spotlight on the dispute I expect.  Is it perhaps a factor making Israel a bit more cautious, not wanting to hurt foreigners? 

[Bkk Brian]

He overlooked the fact that they murdered a few including by beheading.

 

"You honestly can’t make this up. a Hamas official claims that the reason the terrorists took Thai Nationals Hostage was “for their own safety”"
 

 

[placnx]

On 12/2/2023 at 5:37 PM, Morch said:

 

The IDF did not plan to drop 'bunker busters' on any hospital. If that was the case the long standoff which allowed Hamas to clear off would not have happened. I'm aware you have issues with Israel, but try and keep things real, please. What 'international observers' would these be? Did the Hamas ever allow such to tour around? You want to deny the existence of tunnels, or any other thing Hamas does - go right ahead. You really don't have to make up excuses, you don't believe it, and that's it.

Where did I deny the existence of tunnels? However, disproportionate killing is undeniable. Instead of bunker busters, IDF should use their technology to enter the tunnels instead of destroying them. Maybe they can find traces of hostage presence in the process. Bunker busters might kill hostages instead of Hamas people.

 

As for whether they finish al-Shifa off with bombs remains to be seen. So far they are doing a good job of making hospitals unable to function.

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, placnx said:

Where did I deny the existence of tunnels? However, disproportionate killing is undeniable. Instead of bunker busters, IDF should use their technology to enter the tunnels instead of destroying them. Maybe they can find traces of hostage presence in the process. Bunker busters might kill hostages instead of Hamas people.

 

As for whether they finish al-Shifa off with bombs remains to be seen. So far they are doing a good job of making hospitals unable to function.

 

Wasn't aware that you're a military tactician, let alone a strategist. Maybe it occurred to the IDF that going single file into a tunnel is not the brightest idea ever, and in fact, something which Hamas was probably more than ready for. I get it that you think Israel should sacrifice Israeli lives first - but that's not how most countries see casualties on their side.

 

As for your comments regarding hospitals, so far there wasn't any major attack on such, other than that misfired Palestinian rocket explosion. You sound almost as if you're yearning for such an attack to happen. Guess it would make good material for your posts on here.

 

Regarding civilian casualties - Hamas started this war on 7/10. Hamas knew the consequences, yet did not take any action to protect its own people. You somehow choose to ignore that, and lay all the responsibility on Israel.