Sneaking around corners on motorbikes

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, theblether said:

 

There are rules of right of way. Too many foreigners don't know what they are and crack up when they infringe the rules, even though they are in the wrong. 

You would insist on your right of way in Thailand? Where are you typing your post from, a hospital bed?

[theblether]

21 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You would insist on your right of way in Thailand? Where are you typing your post from, a hospital bed?

 

This was your earlier reply "AFAIK there are no rules."

 

Utter drivel. 

 

You'll be in a hospital bed a long time before me as you don't know the driving laws in Thailand. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by theblether

[Lacessit]

46 minutes ago, theblether said:

 

This was your earlier reply "AFAIK there are no rules."

 

Utter drivel. 

 

You'll be in a hospital bed a long time before me as you don't know the driving laws in Thailand. 

 

 

I've been driving 12 years in Thailand, scooter and car. Accident-free.

I guess I must be doing something right.

I assume everyone else on the roads is a homicidal maniac.

Tell me what you think the driving laws are. If there are any, more honored in the breach than the observance.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Lacessit

[theblether]

55 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I've been driving 12 years in Thailand, scooter and car. Accident-free.

I guess I must be doing something right.

I assume everyone else on the roads is a homicidal maniac.

Tell me what you think the driving laws are. If there are any, more honored in the breach than the observance.

 

It's astonishing that you have been driving in Thailand for 12 years ( 16 in my case ) and you are unaware of right of way regulations.

 

[kwilco]

5 hours ago, Woof999 said:

overall bike riding standard in Thailand is no worse than pretty much anywhere in the world

You are engaging in the blame game - so you have completely failed even to get the basics of road safety. Human error is a constant worldwide - once you understand that and stop the blame game then things can be done to rectify it. Playing the blame game was proves rubbish about 50 years ago - countries that don't doit have much lower death rates.

[Woof999]

5 minutes ago, kwilco said:

You are engaging in the blame game - so you have completely failed even to get the basics of road safety. Human error is a constant worldwide - once you understand that and stop the blame game then things can be done to rectify it. Playing the blame game was proves rubbish about 50 years ago - countries that don't doit have much lower death rates.

 

Your responses are full of fluff and uncited statements.

 

This latest reply talks about nothing more than "playing the blame game" and states that is what I am doing. Who or what did I blame for anything?

 

What are your ideas to stop the carnage, or is it all just hot air?

[kwilco]

5 hours ago, theblether said:

 

I like your "boat" analogy. One thing that used to drive me nuts was why it took Thais so long to turn left. So I did a bizarre thing - I asked a Thai.............

 

"Why do you take so long to turn left?" And I received and answer so logical that I was embarrassed I hadn't thought of it myself. 

 

"Every Thai person knows that a stupid motorcyclist will try to undertake you when you slow to turn left, because at some time in the past we have been that stupid motorcyclist. So we are cautious as we expect a collision on the passenger side." 

 

Logical, and it is a common sight on Thai roads. 

wherever I drive in the world I use all my mirrors etcto make certain where vehicles are on any side of me - not doing that is a flaw in someone's driving.

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

I've been driving 12 years in Thailand, scooter and car. Accident-free.

I guess I must be doing something right.

I assume everyone else on the roads is a homicidal maniac.

Tell me what you think the driving laws are. If there are any, more honored in the breach than the observance.

Such a shallow thing to say – firstly there’s no such thing as an accident. ..and you are using a valueless sample criteria

You comment  has no statistical significance – “experience” is not a reliable predictor of crashes. – there are many other causes of  apart from your driving. You are focusing on the past and not the future and your statement in no way can predict that you’ll continue to avoid accidents in the future – you can’t predict or account for changes in both Thai road safety and yourself. Teir is a myth that people are responsible for their “accident-free” driving.

Essentially you are just being self-congratulatory and dangerously ignoring the overall risks of driving. You don’t even know how you would react in a sudden critical situation.

 

Instead of focusing on the past or personal anecdotes, it's far more constructive talk about scientifically proven about safe driving practices, risk awareness, and proactive measures to minimize the likelihood of accidents. By focusing on current and FUTURE safety, you create a more responsible and accident-free driving environment for everyone

[kwilco]

If you find yourself shouting at other drivers especially in a foreign country, is it not most likely that you need to review your driving skills

 

Most expat drivers fail to learn the local driving customs. Every country has its own set of driving customs, so it's important to learn and follow them when you are driving in a foreign country. Unfortunately rather than learn they tend to make up  and cling to clichés that reinforce their own feelings of superiority.

 

Foreigners who drive in Thailand frequently turn on the vitriol when it comes to talking about their fellow roads users...automatically excluding themselves from the equation and concomitantly implying that their driving skills are far superior to those of all Thai people.
One thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, they all believe that they are above-average drivers.
 

There is a consistent view that OTHERS drive in a more risky manner than individuals themselves do. If you think this, you are probably wrong

[kwilco]

24 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

Your responses are full of fluff and uncited statements.

You are now sealioning - the hallmark of someone without an argument.

 

If you want a "citation" then you should fist check for yourself or put forward and alternative argument - which you can't do. it would seem.

Would you =care to "cite" some of your own statements? 

Do I need to tell you what anecdotal evidence is?

Edited December 11, 2023 by kwilco

[Woof999]

19 minutes ago, kwilco said:

You are now sealioning - the hallmark of someone without an argument.

 

A single request for you to cite anything is relentless badgering?

 

19 minutes ago, kwilco said:

then you should fist check for yourself

 

Not really my area of expertise I'm afraid.

 

20 minutes ago, kwilco said:

put forward and alternative argument - which you can't do. it would seem.

 

An alternative argument to what? You've not made an argument, only accusations.

 

21 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Would you =care to "cite" some of your own statements? 

 

The only statement I've made is that all your responses in this thread are hot air. Evidence above, your honour.

 

21 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Do I need to tell you what anecdotal evidence is?

 

That's your citation? Okey dokey.

 

[kwilco]

12 minutes ago, Woof999 said:

 

A single request for you to cite anything is relentless badgering?

 

 

Not really my area of expertise I'm afraid.

 

 

An alternative argument to what? You've not made an argument, only accusations.

 

 

The only statement I've made is that all your responses in this thread are hot air. Evidence above, your honour.

 

 

That's your citation? Okey dokey.

 

how silly can you get? Clearly you don't want citations and as you admit know nothing yet you try to object - and yes, you are sealioning.

 

It's simple - read my posts, if you don't  don't agree say why....

Edited December 11, 2023 by kwilco

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

If you find yourself shouting at other drivers especially in a foreign country, is it not most likely that you need to review your driving skills.

Even when not driving I can look out and see some of the events unfolding and think -  utter muppet. 

That's observation has nothing to do with whether or not I am driving. 

I'm regularly in Taxi's here and think - 'utter fool, what on earth are you trying to achieve?'

 

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

Most expat drivers fail to learn the local driving customs. Every country has its own set of driving customs, so it's important to learn and follow them when you are driving in a foreign country. Unfortunately rather than learn they tend to make up  and cling to c that reinforce their own feelings of superiority.

 

I've spent my adult life here (since 22) and have far more experience driving here in Thailand than I do in the UK.

There are 'local driving customs' I will not adapt to, such as jumping red lights, over-taking into oncoming traffic etc.

 

There is a very simple fact of observation - I see more dumb stuff on the roads here than I do in the UK.... that is not a cliché, its a simple observation. If you are saying its because I'm unable to adapt here, you are wrong... I'm very comfortable driving here, I just also see a lot of dumb s#i£ happening on the roads.

 

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

Foreigners who drive in Thailand frequently turn on the vitriol when it comes to talking about their fellow roads users...automatically excluding themselves from the equation and concomitantly implying that their driving skills are far superior to those of all Thai people.

Given the more advanced training and stronger cultural attitudes towards safety it could be argued, for the most part they are correct. 

 

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

One thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status, or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, they all believe that they are above-average drivers.

Half of us are correct.

 

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

There is a consistent view that OTHERS drive in a more risky manner than individuals themselves do. If you think this, you are probably wrong

 

I'd agree with this...   I think my wife's driving is riskier as she hesitates too much, changes lanes too frequently, seems less aware of the traffic around her (doesn't leave gaps for motorcyclists etc), doesn't predict the movement of other travel well, doesn't drive in a manner that allows other traffic to predict her road movements and she drives too fast down the city streets etc....  (just my observations)... 

Yet... Ask her, and she'll think my driving is risker as I speed more often than her on the expressways.

Edited December 11, 2023 by richard_smith237

[kwilco]

7 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Even when not driving I can look out and see some of the events unfolding and think -  utter muppet. 

That's observation has nothing to do with whether or not I am driving. 

I'm regularly in Taxi's here and think - 'utter fool, what on earth are you trying to achieve?'

 

 

I've spent my adult life here (since 22) and have far more experience driving here in Thailand than I do in the UK.

There are 'local driving customs' I will not adapt to, such as jumping red lights, over-taking into oncoming traffic etc.

 

There is a very simple fact of observation - I see more dumb stuff on the roads here than I do in the UK.... that is not a cliché, its a simple observation. If you are saying its because I'm unable to adapt here, you are wrong... I'm very comfortable driving here, I just also see a lot of dumb s#i£ happening on the roads.

 

Given the more advanced training and stronger cultural attitudes towards safety it could be argued, for the most part they are correct. 

 

Half of us are correct.

 

 

I'd agree with this...   I think my wife's driving is riskier as she hesitates too much, changes lanes too frequently, seems less aware of the traffic around her (doesn't leave gaps for motorcyclists etc), doesn't predict the movement of other travel well, doesn't drive in a manner that allows other traffic to predict her road movements and she drives too fast down the city streets etc....  (just my observations)... 

Yet... Ask her, and she'll think my driving is risker as I speed more often than her on the expressways.

so - when you find yourself "shouting" (literally or otherwise) at other drivers you probably need to review your own driving.

Again people can't let go of the nebulous concept of "bad driving" and the blame gain which means you don't even begin to grasp the concept of road safety.

BYW - \i have far more driving experience than you in Thailand but also throughout the world - however, as I've said before I don't rely on anecdotal evidence I rely on my analytical and critical skills as well as my training.

Edited December 11, 2023 by kwilco

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, kwilco said:

so - when you find yourself "shouting" (literally or otherwise) at other drivers you probably need to review your own driving.

Again people can't let go of the nebulous concept of "bad driving" and the blame gain which means you don't even begin to grasp the concept of road safety.

BYW - \i have far more driving experience than you in Thailand but also throughout the world - however, as I've said before I don't rely on anecdotal evidence I rely on my analytical and critical skills as well as my training.

 

Do I need to review my own driving when I'm sat in the back of a taxi 'mentally screaming' at the driver for nearly hitting some one on a pedestrian crossing because he didn't want to stop ? its anecdotal evidence if it happens once, but if the same has occurred numerous times over decades ?

 

I don't get upset or angry on the roads, thats just not my driving character, but I do observe really stupid driving on a daily basis - your implication is that I need to review my own driving when I see others are driving poorly, dangerously or with a degree of stupidity that would make anyone raise their eyebrows ??? - You're doubling down on this ridiculous rhetoric of yours about blame and the concept of safety.

 

You mentioned the 5 pillars of road safety, but really, there should be a 6th...  and that is 'stupid people do stupid stuff' - that rings true here or anywhere else. 

 

You repeatedly lay fault at 'our (everyone else but you) understanding' of road safety, yet what we see daily on the roads here is a facet of the poor road safety. 

 

You mentioned anecdotal evidence - anecdote is a single case...  evidence is a summary of repeated individual cases can no longer simply be called 'anecdote' especially when those when those repeated observations are noticed by many and over a long duration of time...

 

...Those repeated observations you want to call 'anecdote' are of a national road culture whereby road safety is just not considered or valued.

 

 

 

[kwilco]

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Do I need to review my own driving when I'm sat in the back of a taxi 'mentally screaming'

Yes

[kwilco]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

You mentioned the 5 pillars of road safety, but really, there should be a 6th...  and that is 'stupid people do stupid stuff' - that rings true here or anywhere else. 

Ypou clearly heven't read my post that says that idiots are worldwide.

[richard_smith237]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Do I need to review my own driving when I'm sat in the back of a taxi 'mentally screaming'

Yes

 

Interesting....   

 

I'd like to understand more about why a passenger may need to review their own driving when having an opinion on the lack of safety of another....  What if I never drove, ergo, there is no driving to self review ??...  is an opinion of the safety of a driver no longer valid at all ???

 

 

(Its late now, but I'd like to get back to it tomorrow)

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Ypou clearly heven't read my post that says that idiots are worldwide.

 

Maybe not, but thats an obvious point we agree on anyway...    

[kwilco]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Interesting....   

 

I'd like to understand more about why a passenger may need to review their own driving when having an opinion on the lack of safety of another....  What if I never drove, ergo, there is no driving to self review ??...  is an opinion of the safety of a driver no longer valid at all ???

 

 

(Its late now, but I'd like to get back to it tomorrow)

When it comes to road safety, you aren't even on page one - you are a road user like everyone else - where you sit has no bearing on the concept of understanding road safety - every comment you make shows you are still clinging to archaic dysfunctional perceptions that cloud your understanding.

 

There is no such thing as a racially based tendency for any people or nationality to drive any worse or less skilfully than any others – and that includes Western expats. Idiot drivers form the same proportion of almost all societies regardless of race creed or colour. – it’s human nature that dictates this and it is what a society does do to contain those “idiots” that differs from country to country.

[mlkik]

On 12/7/2023 at 2:06 PM, kwilco said:

 

One also needs to bear in mind the Thai culture of driving like a boat on a river.

Most foreigners are totally unaware of this - Thai drivers of course aren't.

 

WTF are you on about?

[kwilco]

18 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Maybe not, but thats an obvious point we agree on anyway...    

Ok - if you keep "having to" shout at taxi drivers - what do you conclude from that?

[kwilco]

8 minutes ago, mlkik said:

WTF are you on about?

read my posts.

It's probably why you have such a negative view of driving in Thailand.

Edited December 11, 2023 by kwilco

[Lacessit]

8 hours ago, theblether said:

 

It's astonishing that you have been driving in Thailand for 12 years ( 16 in my case ) and you are unaware of right of way regulations.

 

I've assumed everything has right of way over me.

If you go back to my first or second post, you'll see the qualification process for obtaining my Thai driving licenses was farcical.

Regulations don't mean sh!t when it's a scooter with right of way over a behemoth pickup.

[novacova]

Understanding that right-of-way is an ambitious variable here is an imperative, anyone expecting otherwise probably shouldn’t be driving. CM gets a variety of drivers especially on weekends and holidays, mindless tourists, aggressive bkk folks, folks from rural areas that are timid, not accustomed and unfamiliar, and most of the the local folks that are used to it and adapted, and the the careless idiots that live here. Quite the contrast. Not competing, yielding and driving defensively are elementary concepts of basic driving. Wish you all a calm and safe drive.

[richard_smith237]

11 hours ago, kwilco said:

There is no such thing as a racially based tendency for any people or nationality to drive any worse or less skilfully than any others – and that includes Western expats. Idiot drivers form the same proportion of almost all societies regardless of race creed or colour. – it’s human nature that dictates this and it is what a society does do to contain those “idiots” that differs from country to country.

 

Agree... its not racial at all...  But it is cultural...   which is one of the reasons why some countries (ergo cultures) have poorer driving standards and higher accident rates than others.

 

You seem to imply the fault is with the observer for identifying this and are trying to shoe-horn a thesis into what is simple observation. 

 

You seem to be doubling down on this idea that stupid behavior is complex...  

 

11 hours ago, kwilco said:

Ok - if you keep "having to" shout at taxi drivers - what do you conclude from that?

 

I conclude that you are gaslighting - because I have not said "I have to keep shouting at taxi drivers" .. I have said that I am often in situations where I am mentally (silently in my head) shouting a taxi drivers for their selfish, dangerous or / and dumb driving behavior. 

 

You imply this reflects on my lack of knowledge and standards 'as a road user' which is preposterous and again highlights how you will double down on some completely illogical reasoning to avoid the reality that many of Thailand's road users are poorly trained, dangerous and careless.

 

 

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Agree... its not racial at all...  But it is cultural...   which is one of the reasons why some countries (ergo cultures) have poorer driving standards and higher accident rates than others.

 

You seem to imply the fault is with the observer for identifying this and are trying to shoe-horn a thesis into what is simple observation. 

 

You seem to be doubling down on this idea that stupid behavior is complex...  

 

 

I conclude that you are gaslighting - because I have not said "I have to keep shouting at taxi drivers" .. I have said that I am often in situations where I am mentally (silently in my head) shouting a taxi drivers for their selfish, dangerous or / and dumb driving behavior. 

 

You imply this reflects on my lack of knowledge and standards 'as a road user' which is preposterous and again highlights how you will double down on some completely illogical reasoning to avoid the reality that many of Thailand's road users are poorly trained, dangerous and careless.

 

 

" But it is cultural - that is the word racists use to cover up that they are racists.

Like "It's a religion so that's not racist"

..and you're still obsessively playing the blame game.

Edited December 12, 2023 by kwilco

[kwilco]

   Playing the blame game when it comes to road safety is counterproductive and hinders efforts to improve road safety outcomes. Instead of focusing on assigning blame, a more constructive approach is to identify underlying causes and develop targeted interventions to prevent or reduce future accidents.

Blaming is harmful

Blaming individuals or groups for road accidents can lead to a variety of negative consequences:

A limited focus on prevention: When you focus ion assigning blame, the attention shifts away from identifying root causes, you miss the real problems and fail to implement appropriate preventive measures.

Ait engenders a culture of fear and defensiveness: Blaming creates a climate of fear and suspicion, discouraging open communication and collaboration not only among road users,  but also law enforcement, and policymakers

Reduction in reporting of accidents: When drivers fear being blamed for accidents, they may be less likely to report them, making it difficult to identify patterns and implement effective safety measures, this is a crucial part of understanding road safety.

Countries with th lowest fatality rates have already adopted blame-free approach to road safety

This has proved to be a more effective approach to road safety emphasizing a blame-free culture that focuses on prevention and improvement.

It involves:

Investigating accidents: Thorough investigations should focus on understanding the factors that contributed to the accident, without assigning blame to individuals. Try and get hold of a proper crash report in Thailand.

Underlying causes: Accident investigations should go beyond individual actions to identify systemic issues, such as road design, infrastructure, driver behaviour, and vehicle safety features. They should certainly not be left in the hands of local police or casual observers.

Implementing preventive measures: Based on the identified causes, targeted interventions should be implemented to address the underlying issues and reduce the likelihood of future accidents. We already established the poor design of this junction.

Collaborative efforts: It’s not just a matter for local police and media -  Road safety stakeholders, including government agencies, law enforcement, road designers, vehicle manufacturers, and the public (esp. ALL road users), should work together to develop and implement preventive measures.

Examples of blame-free approaches

Several countries and organizations have implemented blame-free approaches to road safety with positive outcomes:

Sweden's Vision Zero: Sweden's ambitious goal of zero road deaths by 2030 emphasizes a blame-free culture, focusing on identifying and addressing underlying causes through engineering, education, and enforcement.

The Dutch "Safety Net" program: The Dutch "Safety Net" program provides financial compensation to accident victims, regardless of fault, encouraging reporting of accidents and promoting a blame-free culture.

The "Just Culture" approach: The "Just Culture" approach emphasizes learning from safety incidents without assigning blame, promoting a culture of transparency and accountability. Un;like the racists POV, culture is NOT STATIC and grows and changes, but one needs to understand it’s roots – unlike the racist concept it is not inherently a static factor

By embracing a blame-free approach to road safety, we can shift the focus from assigning blame to identifying and addressing the underlying causes of accidents, ultimately reducing road fatalities and injuries.

 

 

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, kwilco said:

   Playing the blame game when it comes to road safety is counterproductive and hinders efforts to improve road safety outcomes.

 

Yes yes yes... you keep rattling on about this 'blame game'...    

 

When someone overtakes into oncoming traffic and kills the occupants..  we get it, you don't want to blame the driver. 

 

What are you going to say.. its not the van drivers fault, he's just a product of his environment ?...  

 

 

Your classroom approach to this issue is missing reality. The law also disagrees with you, which is why there are penalties for dangerous driving, death by dangerous driving etc...  

[richard_smith237]

12 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Countries with th lowest fatality rates have already adopted blame-free approach to road safety

 

No they haven't...  I'm sure they still send drivers to prison as a direct consequence of their dangerous and deadly actions on the road - the drivers are still blamed in these situations.