Sneaking around corners on motorbikes

[Lacessit]

Just now, kwilco said:

...my point is there is no point explaining this to people who can't understand - you are a case in point.

I did look up the term sealion, which you attempt to link to the data I have posted.

I do understand you are evading any questions which ask you to do better than make blanket statements, completely unsupported by any data or evidence.

In other words, you are a totally dishonest troll. Goodbye.

[kwilco]

OK - here's my answer

 

 

[Liverpool Lou]

8 hours ago, Lacessit said:

While Thais have quite a few positive attributes, there is no denying they are sh!t drivers.

While Britons, and others, have quite a few positive attributes, there is no denying that many are just as sh!t drivers.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Liverpool Lou

[Liverpool Lou]

1 hour ago, papa al said:

At least everyone was wearing a helmet.

Except the baby.  And the male rider.  And the rider who stopped to pick up the baby.  Apart from that, you were spot on.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Liverpool Lou

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

While Britons, and other nationalities, have quite a few positive attributes, there is no denying that many are just as sh!t drivers.

Australia had 1194 road deaths in 2022, Thailand over 15000. Thai data excludes deaths that don't occur at the scene of the accident.

Adjusted for relative population sizes, this means Thailand had approximately 5 times as many road deaths.

Does this data mean Australians are 5 times better drivers than Thais? Maybe not, but it is saying something.

[Liverpool Lou]

38 minutes ago, kwilco said:

BTW - the male motorcyclist was stationary when the female and baby collided with him.

No, he was not, his bike was still just moving as she hit him.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Liverpool Lou

[roo860]

26 minutes ago, kwilco said:

As someone who worked in a traffic engineers dept in the UK - I can see at a glance huge faults in the junction and also how people regard video - what we need is a series of shots towards th woman motorcyclist for about 200 metres before she comes in frame and a ground level 360 degree scan of the junction in particular the vegetation around it.

One also needs to bear in mind the Thai culture of driving like a boat on a river.

Most foreigners are totally unaware of this - Thai drivers of course aren't.

BTW - the male motorcyclist was stationary when the female and baby collided with him.

As someone who installed road markings and reflective road studs for 20yrs in the UK, I know that stop bar is placed incorrectly, regardless of anything else, probably wouldn't have made any difference to the incident anyway. You only have to watch Channel 32 or 34 weekday mornings 6am.

[kwilco]

2 minutes ago, roo860 said:

As someone who installed road markings and reflective road studs for 20yrs in the UK, I know that stop bar is placed incorrectly, regardless of anything else, probably wouldn't have made any difference to the incident anyway. You only have to watch Channel 32 or 34 weekday mornings 6am.

I agree - You will also know that the substance used has inferior reflective and friction qualities. You will also know that in UK and EU their are standard formulae for where road markings and signs are stationed - i am of the opinion that there are NO qualified traffic engineers in Thailand - the entire system is haphazard and inconsistent. 

 

These things actually do make a difference as you are probably aware that they work "subliminally" and the male motorcyclist may well have positioned himself better before entering the junction. As it was he was able to ignore the stop line and this was probably s=due to its positioning and a lack of visibility at the junction - this is not available from the video.

When designing these junctions in UK a lot of research goes into how rto position them and how people observe and adhere to road signs and markings - there is little or no evidence of this on any Thai roads.

[kwilco]

11 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Stationary for a second, stopped right in her path, immediately in front of her.

you can't tell from the video how far away to other road user was - I would suggest he expected her to go in front of him - however holding a baby, she was probably restricted in her ability to manoeuvre the bike or even apply the brakes. - during that |second" she would have travelled 20 metres - I suspect he saw her a couple of seconds before that  she coud have been anywhere up. to 100 metres away.

[MangoKorat]

On 12/6/2023 at 1:40 PM, Lacessit said:

MO another problem is the positioning of the white line the male scooter rider is supposed to stop behind before entering the intersection.

Crazy but quite normal.

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Perhaps you can educate us with your brand of superior rubbish, then.

I've seen totally unroadworthy vehicles renew their registration with a few hundred baht on the side. I've converted two driving licenses here by simply looking at a traffic light.

You are totally delusional if you think Thais are good drivers, and using racism is a p!ss-poor argument in their favour.

In 2022, Laos had 947 road deaths. Vietnam, 6400. Thailand, 15,000. All Asian countries.

You'll have to try harder if you want to convince me you are not as dumb as a can of soup.

 

you have the link - read it....

 

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

I agree - You will also know that the substance used has inferior reflective and friction qualities. You will also know that in UK and EU their are standard formulae for where road markings and signs are stationed - i am of the opinion that there are NO qualified traffic engineers in Thailand - the entire system is haphazard and inconsistent. 

 

These things actually do make a difference as you are probably aware that they work "subliminally" and the male motorcyclist may well have positioned himself better before entering the junction. As it was he was able to ignore the stop line and this was probably s=due to its positioning and a lack of visibility at the junction - this is not available from the video.

When designing these junctions in UK a lot of research goes into how rto position them and how people observe and adhere to road signs and markings - there is little or no evidence of this on any Thai roads.

 

All of the above is agreeable.... 

 

But, the motorcyclist was still an idiot for pulling out in to road he couldn't see into...   

 

.....its like walking across a road while reading your mobile phone - is something stupid people do.

 

There's only so far excellent road engineering can go, there also needs to be a culture that takes safety seriously and that is missing here.

 

 

[couchpotato]

5 hours ago, kwilco said:

THe reason that so much rubbish is posted on this thread is that people are just incapable of even understanding what thy are looking at.

Including your good self, from your posts. But we forgive you.

[kwilco]

59 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

the motorcyclist was still an idiot for pulling out in to road he couldn't see into...   

 

I don't thinl there was any visibility until he got out that far - and that's why he stopped - due to the poor road markings he probably had no idea of his actual position on the junction.

[kwilco]

52 minutes ago, couchpotato said:

Including your good self, from your posts. But we forgive you.

What I can see is limited - I'm aware of that but It is unfortunate that people grossly over estimate what they are seeing in a video - they are just being naive.

[kwilco]

The 5 pillars of road safety are

 

1. Education

2. Enforcement

3. Engineering

4. Emergency

5. Evaluation

 

In relation to this video how do they apply?

Firstly we must acknowledge that the videos doesn’t show the whole picture – particularly the course of the woman when out of camera shot and the angles of visibility.

 

Education

Both parties involved clearly have little education on road safety – most governments do this but in Thailand it is almost non-existent, they didn’t even think to wear crash helmets and are using pee-taught driving techniques that are common to Thai road users. The woman clearly had restricted control over her vehicle. This means when human error occurs the results tend to be more serious than they need to be.

(my guess is the woman saw the bike come out of the junction and assumed she would pass behind, but the man saw her late and stopped thinking she would go in front – the resulting combination of human errors  - split second judgements – meant the collision occurred)

 

Enforcement

No -one stopped them from driving without helmets or carry an under-age passenger

 

Engineering means both vehicles and roads – we can’t judge the vehicles but as has been pointed out there are several concerns about the junction – road markings and visibility been the most obvious.

 

Emergency – the response time in the UK for SERIOUS injury is 8 minutes (at present this doesn’t happen very often) BUT in Thailand there are no targets and no uniform emergency services, first responders or paramedics.

 

Evaluation – as can be seen by the nonsense promulgated on this thread alone analysis and metrication of this accident is pure conjecture by amateurs. Will the police do any better  - of course not!  The result is we learn nothing from this to help prevent future crashes

 

PS – “sneaking round the corner” i=s not a complete description.

 

The man is obviously being cautious because he can’t see properly and the lines of travel is extremely common on Thai roads – if you want to understand this then you need to understand that unlike Europe where road travel was common before the motorcar, in Thailand the main mode of transport was by boat – the traffic sense, rules and behaviour stem largely from that culture hence the line of the male motorcyclist.

If you repeat to yourself whilst driving in Thailand “I’m in a boat” “I’m in a boat” you’ll suddenly find you for in with the traffic much better.

Of course if you’ve never navigated a boat on a river, it may not be that apparent to you. You have to shed your horse and cart mentality for a boat one.

 

[stoner]

5 hours ago, kwilco said:

As it was he was able to ignore the stop line and this was probably s=due to its positioning and a lack of visibility at the junction

 

he failed to stop at the intersection which started the chain reaction leading to the crash. the male rider ignoring the stop line has nothing to do with its positioning. 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by stoner

[kwilco]

23 minutes ago, stoner said:

 

he failed to stop at the intersection which started the chain reaction leading to the crash. the male rider ignoring the stop line has nothing to do with its positioning. 

 

 

You don't see what I see - and we both don't see the woman until she enters the frame. te most salient point ,though is we both see the same video differently, which shows how misleading por unreliable they can be - and I'm trained to look at still and moving images.

It's also worth pointing out that the man was stationary when the other bike hit him.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by kwilco

[Ralf001]

hahahahaha, why did the dumb <deleted> stop !!

[stoner]

2 minutes ago, kwilco said:

You don't see what I see - and we both don't see the woman until she enters the frame.

 

what does that have anything to do with not stopping ? the man approached the intersection which has a solid white line. this means stop.

 

if he had of stopped checked and made sure all was clear first then proceeded ok. but he didn't. so the position of the woman matters not as it is his responsibility to ensure the road is clear before proceeding. 

[NONG CHOK]

My 2 hour morning walk around the Wongamart area starts at 6am every morning. Believe me I see every road law broken continually. Even most of the tourist bus drivers drive with a Thai motor cyclists mentality when off the main roads. My main concern is when Thai motor cyclists turn left and cross your path they must cross in front of you. So as they're coming from behind you can walk straight into them. If they were to pass you from the rear then you'd be walking away from them. Another thing when motor cyclists turn right they cut of to the wrong side of the road and cut the corner, best of luck if you're coming the other way.

[kwilco]

I think the main problem with people on this site, the public in general and unfortunately the Thai leaders is that they don't see road safety as a public health issue and find it impossible to wrench themselves away from the "blame game".

THis is a terribly unproductive way of looking at raod safety - as soon as words like "Tai drivers" 'bad driving" "his fault" come up the process is doomed.

 

Below is a link to an Australia view on the blame game that outlines why it is a waste of time....

 

https://roadsonline.com.au/stopping-the-blame-game/

 

[kwilco]

26 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

hahahahaha, why did the dumb <deleted> stop !!

re blame game - QED

[kwilco]

27 minutes ago, stoner said:

 

what does that have anything to do with not stopping ? the man approached the intersection which has a solid white line. this means stop.

 

if he had of stopped checked and made sure all was clear first then proceeded ok. but he didn't. so the position of the woman matters not as it is his responsibility to ensure the road is clear before proceeding. 

You're playing the blame game, so you're basically on a hiding to nothing.

It's already been established the lines are incorrectly positioned at that junction and hitting a stationary vehicle legally puts the other drive in the wrong.

Edited December 7, 2023 by kwilco

[Ralf001]

7 minutes ago, kwilco said:

re blame game - QED

 

Blame game ?

 

If he did not stop in the middle of the road the accident would not have happened.

[scubascuba3]

7 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Really?  Find that very hard to believe; why is it not an issue, don't they have traffic accidents in the UK?

See if you can work it out why it's not an issue in UK vs Thailand

[SAFETY FIRST]

Technical the woman is at fault hitting a stationary vehicle. 

 

Anyway, could have been avoided but like most accidents around the world, Incompetence was victorious. 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by SAFETY FIRST

[stoner]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

You're playing the blame game, so you're basically on a hiding to nothing.

It's already been established the lines are incorrectly positioned at that junction and hitting a stationary vehicle legally puts the other drive in the wrong.

 

the man went through a stop. he is wrong. but you keep doing you. incorrect lines mean nothing when you do not stop as the laws of the road dictate. end of story. 

[Skipalongcassidy]

21 hours ago, stereolab said:

Not looking as they enter main roads is normal behavior here, the lady on the motorcycle is driving too fast as she approaches a hazardous area, a junction, especially considering her babies. 

victim blame much... exactly how did you determine that she was driving too fast... and when did side streets become a "hazardous area" by nature. 

[bbi1]

11 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Its simple enough to watch a video and see that the motorcyclist didn't look before pulling out into oncoming traffic (a oncoming motorcycle). 

The motorcyclist was stupid.

 

 

There are lots of stupid Thai people here that just turn into a road without looking. They think they are the most important person in the world and don't care if another motorcycle or vehicle is coming at them.