Thorny potential òwnership and intestate family problem !

[beautifulthailand99]

Hi there my wife and her childless eldest sister jointly own the family house down south and have so for 20 years since their father died. They visit every year and my wife has paid for minor repairs. The eldest sister no longer lives there but is on the tabien baht. Another sister and her husband have lived there for those 20 years and are also on the tabien bahn but have done no repairs or maintenance and live there rent free. They are 4 other siblings who don't live there. In the event of the death of the oldest sister if there is no will what are the potential outcomes. My assumption is those in residence would have squatters right of abode and couldn't be evicted but they would not be able to seize the chanote should it go to law. For background the house and land maybe worth between 5 and 7 million and it should be noted that the other siblings are aware that the house is jointly owned and part of the two sisters property and has been in no way abandoned or given to the resident .

Edited January 31 by beautifulthailand99

[couchpotato]

3 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Hi there my wife and her childless eldest sister jointly own the family house down south and have so for 20 years since their father died. They visit every year and my wife has paid for minor repairs. The eldest sister no longer lives there but is on the tabien baht. Another sister and her husband have lived there for those 20 years and are also on the tabien bahn but have done no repairs or maintenance and live there rent free. They are 4 other siblings who don't live there. In the event of the death of the oldest sister if there is no will what are the potential outcomes. My assumption is those in residence would have squatters right of abode and couldn't be evicted but they would not be able to seize the chanote should it go to law. For background the house and land maybe worth between 5 and 7 million.

Who actually has the Chanote in their posession?  And whose name is on the Chanote?.

Are they any bank loans or is the house/land debt free.

[beautifulthailand99]

13 minutes ago, couchpotato said:

Who actually has the Chanote in their posession?  And whose name is on the Chanote?.

Are they any bank loans or is the house/land debt free.

My wife and the eldest sister names are on the chanote and the chanote is in the house where we are currently visiting. There are no loans debts on the chanote. Indeed it was my wife with my help bailed her father out to the total tune of 1.8 million 21 years ago after the eldest step brother broke his father's heart after taking a mortgage to bail out his failing business and then walked away when he couldn't pay it.

[Liverpool Lou]

Without a will her siblings will inherit her share of the property, presuming that her mother is also deceased.

 

The family who are being allowed by the owners to live in the property rent free are not squatters, so squatter's rights do not apply.  Squatter's rights in Thailand apply to unused property that is being occupied by squatters with the intent of acquiring ownership.

Edited January 31 by Liverpool Lou

[beautifulthailand99]

9 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Without a will her siblings will inherit her share of the property, presuming that her mother is also deceased.

I know that but in that event to get their share they would need to be a sale and the eviction of the sister and husband who may not want to go in that event. For information both my wife and her eldest sister want to sell take half for themselves and potentially gift the other half to the resident sister to move up north closer to them all and their children. They all get on very well at the moment but their is a sneaking suspicion that the husband doesn't want to move and may believe they could seize the chanote in a court of law due to adverse possession in the event of the oldest sister dying intestate and forcing the issue. There is currently a lot of trust and goodwill but that could be tested if the resident sister given plenty of time and positive suggestions proves reluctant to move over the next couple of years. We are examining our options and messaging to achieve that.

Edited January 31 by beautifulthailand99

[Liverpool Lou]

29 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

the husband doesn't want to move and may believe they could seize the chanote in a court of law due to adverse possession in the event of the oldest sister dying intestate and forcing the issue.

Those living in the property with the authority of the owners are not "possessing" the property intending to acquire ownership (they are being allowed to live there by the owners) therefore they are not squatters and the process of obtaining ownership by adverse possession (squatters rights) does not apply to them.  

 

Of course, if the ownership of the property was distributed to the siblings on the sisters death and they wanted their proceeds there would have to be a sale, either that or your wife could purchase their inherited share from them.   The plan to sell now and give those living there a pay-off sounds like a good idea if your suspicions are correct.

Edited January 31 by Liverpool Lou

[beautifulthailand99]

7 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Those living in the property with the authority of the owners are not "possessing" the property intending to acquire ownership (they are being allowed to live there) by the owners) therefore they are not squatters and the process of obtaining ownership by adverse possession (squatters rights) does not apply to them.  

 

Of course, if the ownership of the property was distributed to the siblings on the sisters death and they wanted the proceeds there would have to be a sale, either that or your wife could purchase their inherited share from them.   The plan to sell now and give those living there now a pay-off sounds like a good idea if your suspicions are correct.

Thanks that sounds right the law of adverse possession is to stop rich people abandoning land or property for a period of 10 or more years with no attempt to assert ownership and therefore in the eyes of the law forgoing their ownership. This most certainly doesn't apply here. 

[couchpotato]

4 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Thanks that sounds right the law of adverse possession is to stop rich people abandoning land or property for a period of 10 or more years with no attempt to assert ownership and therefore in the eyes of the law forgoing their ownership. This most certainly doesn't apply here. 

My advice would be to sell now, while the other sister on the Chanote is still alive (once she passes away, things get more complicated).

As LL has said above, the people living in the house have no legal rights, and if the house was sold they would be forced to move toute suite. But if as you say the family have no conflicts at this time, then your wife's idea of 50/50 (or whatever split) is probably the best.

From experience with these type of things, your wife really doesn't want to get involved with family squabbles, because they never work out well.

[beautifulthailand99]

2 minutes ago, couchpotato said:

My advice would be to sell now, while the other sister on the Chanote is still alive (once she passes away, things get more complicated).

As LL has said above, the people living in the house have no legal rights, and if the house was sold they would be forced to move toute suite. But if as you say the family have no conflicts at this time, then your wife's idea of 50/50 (or whatever split) is probably the best.

From experience with these type of things, your wife really doesn't want to get involved with family squabbles, because they never work out well.

Thanks that's the plan. The other family members hold my wife who is the youngest of 10 in high regard as she helps out and avises with no desire to self enrich. They regard ghe resident sister as having had it easy to live rent free for 20 years something the others don't have. As ever the oldest sister who is 73 doesn't want to make a will as she regards it as unlucky and fears she would fie soon after ! If she died intestate there would be an unseemly feeding frenzy on the house. Just out of interest as my wife has 50% and would get a 5 way split on the remaining 50% taking her to 60 and her resident sister to 10% 70% could the others still force a sale?

[FritsSikkink]

Sell your part of house to the other owner, so you can't be too bothered with all the problem which will arise if she dies.

If she dies first, your wife will get a siblings share back and could sell that again.

 

[couchpotato]

4 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Thanks that's the plan. The other family members hold my wife who is the youngest of 10 in high regard as she helps out and avises with no desire to self enrich. They regard ghe resident sister as having had it easy to live rent free for 20 years something the others don't have. As ever the oldest sister who is 73 doesn't want to make a will as she regards it as unlucky and fears she would fie soon after ! If she died intestate there would be an unseemly feeding frenzy on the house. Just out of interest as my wife has 50% and would get a 5 way split on the remaining 50% taking her to 60 and her resident sister to 10% 70% could the others still force a sale?

Dont understand your last sentence. The split is only if the house is sold, so if sold, how can the others force a sale.

Also above you said your wife and sister would take 50% of the sale and gift the other 50%. But now you are talking about wife and sister taking another 10% each of that supposedly gifted 50%. Very conflicting posts.

So please sit down and think carefully what your wife wants to do, and then post, so people can try to give you advice.

[beautifulthailand99]

Just now, FritsSikkink said:

Sell your part of house to the other owner, so you can't be too bothered with all the problem which will arise if she dies.

If she dies first, your wife will get a siblings share back and could sell that again.

 

The eldest sister has no money and was never marrired or had children and is the caring auntie to the resident sisters daughter and lives with her in a rented condo in Bangkok. Indeed she looked after her father until he died hence he left half to her and half to my wife who bailed them all out. The two residents are on healthy government employees pensions but have burnt through their savings so are in no position to pay back anyone should they stay in situ.

[beautifulthailand99]

1 minute ago, couchpotato said:

Dont understand your last sentence. The split is only if the house is sold, so if sold, how can the others force a sale.

Also above you said your wife and sister would take 50% of the sale and gift the other 50%. But now you are talking about wife and sister taking another 10% each of that supposedly gifted 50%. Very conflicting posts.

So please sit down and think carefully what your wife wants to do, and then post, so people can try to give you advice.

My wife wants to sell along with the other sister like as soon as possible. She wants 2 million back and at least 1 million fir the eldest sister.With the reminder she will help / gift the residents to find another place hopefully near to these family members. That said if she refuses to sell for whatever reason, entrenched ways,superstition or such could a minority stake force the sale if the oldest sister dies. Hope that is clear. Many thanks for your help thus far.

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

The eldest sister has no money and was never marrired or had children and is the caring auntie to the resident sisters daughter and lives with her in a rented condo in Bangkok. Indeed she looked after her father until he died hence he left half to her and half to my wife who bailed them all out. The two residents are on healthy government employees pensions but have burnt through their savings so are in no position to pay back anyone should they stay in situ.

Other option is buy the missing part of the house, charge the residents who have a healthy pension rent and divide that rent between the siblings who got nothing all those years. When the co owning sister dies, slowly up the rent until they move out and keep the house for yourself.

[beautifulthailand99]

15 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

Other option is buy the missing part of the house, charge the residents who have a healthy pension rent and divide that rent between the siblings who got nothing all those years. When the co owning sister dies, slowly up the rent until they move out and keep the house for yourself.

Thanks but that's not how the family dynamic works in our case.We are fairly wealthy and my wife loves these two sisters more than everyone else. If I die before her she will sell up in the UK and move back to her family and be quite a wealthy woman. We have no children. The aim here is to encourage the resident member to move particularly as this is Yala southern Thailand where the local situation isn't ideal and closer to our condo in Jomtien and her daughters in Bangkok. The husband we feel would like to stay close to his sister down South and is a quiet but sober man. Frustrating at the pace of getting something done. But thanks to all the responses here we have some info to feed into the process.

Edited January 31 by beautifulthailand99

[Wrwest]

21 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Without a will her siblings will inherit her share of the property, presuming that her mother is also deceased.

 

The family who are being allowed by the owners to live in the property rent free are not squatters, so squatter's rights do not apply.  Squatter's rights in Thailand apply to unused property that is being occupied by squatters with the intent of acquiring ownership.

Having just updated my Will and entered into a house purchase on contract, I asked the Thai Attorney what would happen in the case of my Thai Wife's death. We were told, without a Will, myself as husband, her Daughters (2), Brother and Parents would inherit. I could continue to live in the house as long as there was no agreement between the others to sell the interest in the house. I plan to have a Will made, stating that the house interest would go solely to her youngest Daughter (my Stepdaughter) who is a student 18 years old and resides with us. To protect my interest I might pay the remaining house debt and have my Stepdaughter agree to a usufruct allowing my continued living in the house.

[beautifulthailand99]

22 minutes ago, Wrwest said:

Having just updated my Will and entered into a house purchase on contract, I asked the Thai Attorney what would happen in the case of my Thai Wife's death. We were told, without a Will, myself as husband, her Daughters (2), Brother and Parents would inherit. I could continue to live in the house as long as there was no agreement between the others to sell the interest in the house. I plan to have a Will made, stating that the house interest would go solely to her youngest Daughter (my Stepdaughter) who is a student 18 years old and resides with us. To protect my interest I might pay the remaining house debt and have my Stepdaughter agree to a usufruct allowing my continued living in the house.

Thanks that is interesting it would appear from your anecdote that the existing resident can stay if the have inherited a minority interest from the owner and there isn't total agreement from all the owners to sell. In essence either all agree or the sale is effectively blocked until they do.

[khunPer]

On 1/31/2024 at 6:15 AM, beautifulthailand99 said:

In the event of the death of the oldest sister if there is no will what are the potential outcomes.

It will follow the Thai law...

 

 

 

(Quotes from the book "Thai Law for Foreigners".)