teutonian Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 23 hours ago, mr_lob said: Last year, a Thai group stayed in one of our villas - after check out the villa was left in a really bad state. Appropriately, we gave him a poor review on airbnb - a simple 2 sentence statement that the villa was left very dirty and they didn't respect the place. Now, months later, we received a court summons - the guy *who is a lawyer* accuses us of ''defamation through advertising is despised and hated.'' He said that because of our review, other hosts are not accepting his bookings. Erm, that's the whole idea of the airbnb system!! He is seeking damages of 300,000 baht. Yes, you read that right, 300k. For a 2 night stay which we got 10k and a filthy villa from. Welcome any comments from anyone who has been in a similar situation! Thanks guys If the court accepts the case you will have a criminal defamation suit on your hands. Loss of workpeemit if you have one. Visa will be changed to court visa and you will need to relinquish your passport. you might just have to settle this for an amount acceptable to the plaintiff. Legal fees can easily run into the millions and no guarantee. Even if you win the case you aste 3-5 years of your time. Good luck. Google JTJB law if you need a good lawyer. Prepare to pay big bucks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisfeld Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 26 minutes ago, NoshowJones said: Tell me, if you win a court case in Thailand, do you still have to pay court expenses plus your lawyer fee's? Would the company or person you win the case against not have to pay your lawyer fee's? You will get some refunded but here are caps for "reasonable expenses and fees" which are way lower than real world costs. My company won a case and still was sitting on most of the expenses. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanrightsombudsman Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) My friend has similar problem and found it was a fake accusation. He reported to ombudsman, human rights commission (said they can interfere court) and anti corruption to ask for 130kB back. u may visit them https://www.lawyerscouncil.or.th https://www.nhrc.or.th http://www.ombudsman.go.th https://www.nacc.go.th court can give u pro bono lawyer (free) but they act with judges, u need to keep evidences and judges may not make u fine so much Edited February 3 by Humanrightsombudsman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgw Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) 2 hours ago, eisfeld said: That is not universally true. You can for example contractually force arbitration before a suit can be issued for example. The whole point of contracts is to limit or grant rights. What would be the purpose of contracts if you could not limit rights? Of course they can't limit every right. You can also stipulate stuff like penalties to be paid in case of a suit. Or you can force a certain party to carry costs etc. There are many things that are possible. You are correct in the sense that contractual obligations can be stipulated in contracts, including the arbitration court or instance, but a lawsuit will in most cases always remain an option, especially when at least one of the parties is a private person. That's why I make a distinction between "contractual obligations" and "Rights". A private person enjoys rights granted by positive law ranked higher than contracts (for private persons), such as a constitution or consumer rights. This might be different from one country to another. We basically agree. Edited February 3 by tgw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitPudding Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 2 hours ago, koolkarl said: Assuming you have evidence There is no evidence he can show to disprove the defamation. Even if they trashed their place and he had evidence, it would still be defamation according to Thai law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgw Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) 11 minutes ago, FruitPudding said: There is no evidence he can show to disprove the defamation. Even if they trashed their place and he had evidence, it would still be defamation according to Thai law It's not that simple. There are different aspects to what people commonly call "defamation". If proven true, a defamation is not defamation anymore but can become in some jurisdictions "denigration". Damages from denigration include for example the loss of business a company would suffer because of lost sales (regardless if the claims made are true or false). I'm not sure if the customer's complaint would be able to show damages of that nature. I'm not knowledgable enough of Thai law to give relevant details, but OP should consult with a competent lawyer. Edited February 3 by tgw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisfeld Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 hour ago, tgw said: You are correct in the sense that contractual obligations can be stipulated in contracts, including the arbitration court or instance, but a lawsuit will in most cases always remain an option, especially when at least one of the parties is a private person. That's why I make a distinction between "contractual obligations" and "Rights". A private person enjoys rights granted by positive law ranked higher than contracts (for private persons), such as a constitution or consumer rights. This might be different from one country to another. We basically agree. A contract is a signed statement that a person agrees to voluntarily waive some of their rights or takes on additional obligations. They are not forced. Only in some countries and in some rare cases can a person not waive specific rights (e.g. universal basic human rights or rights that by law are specifically stipulated as non-waivable). My point is AirBnB could ask guests and hosts to waive their right to sue for defamation when participating in their platform. It was just an example but it's worth checking if any clause exists that could help the OP in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LikeItHot Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 3 hours ago, JimTripper said: The problem with that funnyness is that the thai's are so over-sensitive about criticism that no matter how you word it, it can be construed by a court as defamation. That's why most people just say nothing without constructive dialog. They can't read between lines. It doesn't matter how harshly you criticize them as long as you do it with a smile on your face and end it with a hearty sarcastic "THANK YOU VERY MUCH", that's all they hear and always say "Welcome" in return thinking you just complimented them. Their fragile little egos are only overshadowed by the dimwittedness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverpool Lou Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) 10 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said: the lawyer could be counter-sued for knowingly renting an airbnb property That's an offence? I don't think so. And you can't really be suggesting that the owner of an (apparently) illegal business would get anywhere suing customers of his illegal business for damages for using it? Ridiculous. Edited February 3 by Liverpool Lou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) 2 hours ago, teutonian said: If the court accepts the case you will have a criminal defamation suit on your hands. Loss of workpeemit if you have one. Visa will be changed to court visa and you will need to relinquish your passport. you might just have to settle this for an amount acceptable to the plaintiff. Legal fees can easily run into the millions and no guarantee. Even if you win the case you aste 3-5 years of your time. Good luck. Google JTJB law if you need a good lawyer. Prepare to pay big bucks. So basically what you're saying is that this can be a nice little earner for anyone in Thailand, and even more so if you don't have to split the award with an attorney? If I decide to retire there, I may take up "defamation victim" as a career. Seems like AirBNB is the perfect venue, and leaving a filthy property is the perfect bait to elicit a defamatory review. Then hire a lawyer to split the award. And I'm only halfway kidding. It wouldn't surprise me if the lawyer of the OP's story has carved out a nice living doing little to nothing else. Edited February 3 by impulse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitPudding Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 hour ago, tgw said: It's not that simple. There are different aspects to what people commonly call "defamation". If proven true, a defamation is not defamation anymore but can become in some jurisdictions "denigration". Damages from denigration include for example the loss of business a company would suffer because of lost sales (regardless if the claims made are true or false). I'm not sure if the customer's complaint would be able to show damages of that nature. I'm not knowledgable enough of Thai law to give relevant details, but OP should consult with a competent lawyer. Even if the defamation is true, it's still defamation according to Thai law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverpool Lou Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 10 hours ago, SS1 said: This statement is wrong - AirBnB has never been illegal in Thailand. The law has nothing to do with the platform, it's to do with the nature of rentals in general. There are plenty of scenarios where using AirBnB can be fully legal such as: Renting any room for more than 30 days A resort with a hotel license using the platform Renting a villa with 4 bedrooms or less (or whatever the nr. of rooms under the exemption of hotel license requirement) In the OP's case he was renting for two days...that is illegal...but... https://www.khaosodenglish.com/featured/2018/06/24/thai-law-case-closed-on-airbnb-heres-why-it-wont-matter/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter zwart Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 This wonderful law ensures that the quality and service in Thailand are and remain worthless. You can deliver garbage, berate customers, and still be protected. It couldn't get much crazier than this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukrules Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 On 2/2/2024 at 7:27 PM, mr_lob said: Unfortunately we don't have pictures, but we do have our housekeeping group chat fromt he day confirming that one villa was left very clean and this one very dirty. Our housekeeping staff are willing to testify this in court. If we get fined for this, it will set a precedent - any Thais can book an airbnb, trash it, wait for a bad review and then sue for defamation! Yes, he really is a lawyer Right, so you're complaining that it was a little too dirty for your standards. How dirty is acceptable. When I rent a little palace that comes with servants I expect them to do their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_lob Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 (edited) 49 minutes ago, ukrules said: Right, so you're complaining that it was a little too dirty for your standards. How dirty is acceptable. When I rent a little palace that comes with servants I expect them to do their job. I don 't have a 1-10 scale for you but when airbnb asks us to write a review, we do it honestly Edited February 3 by mr_lob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimTripper Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 4 hours ago, teutonian said: If the court accepts the case you will have a criminal defamation suit on your hands. Loss of workpeemit if you have one. Visa will be changed to court visa and you will need to relinquish your passport. you might just have to settle this for an amount acceptable to the plaintiff. Legal fees can easily run into the millions and no guarantee. Even if you win the case you aste 3-5 years of your time. Good luck. Google JTJB law if you need a good lawyer. Prepare to pay big bucks. Is it just a monetary judgement or is there possible jail time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geisha Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 18 hours ago, AAArdvark said: The cost of extra cleaning vs ฿300000 And have some photos to prove it, and tell the lawyer you will print them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipButty Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 9 hours ago, impulse said: So basically what you're saying is that this can be a nice little earner for anyone in Thailand, and even more so if you don't have to split the award with an attorney? If I decide to retire there, I may take up "defamation victim" as a career. Seems like AirBNB is the perfect venue, and leaving a filthy property is the perfect bait to elicit a defamatory review. Then hire a lawyer to split the award. And I'm only halfway kidding. It wouldn't surprise me if the lawyer of the OP's story has carved out a nice living doing little to nothing else. There is people who go around airbnb's claiming full refunds and get away with it, after their stay I might add, one of the easiest ways I have seen is for the guest to claim there is hidden cameras inside the property not only does the guest get a full refund the host gets suspended or account shut down, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipButty Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 8 hours ago, mr_lob said: I don 't have a 1-10 scale for you but when airbnb asks us to write a review, we do it honestly I did ask you before but you didn't answer me, Do you charge a CLEANING FEE? and while we are at it, do you charge extra for electric and water? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipalongcassidy Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Now you know why most Thai landlords do not want to rent to Thai customers... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipButty Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 10 minutes ago, Skipalongcassidy said: Now you know why most Thai landlords do not want to rent to Thai customers... Same with car rental companies, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgw Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 13 hours ago, FruitPudding said: Even if the defamation is true, it's still defamation according to Thai law https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/criminal-code-defamation-sections-326-333/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitPudding Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 3 hours ago, tgw said: https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/criminal-code-defamation-sections-326-333/ Thanks for finding the link to prove what I said "Whoever, imputes anything to the other person before a third person in a manner likely to impair the reputation of such other person or to expose such other person to be hated or scorned, is said to commit defamation, and shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding one year or fined not exceeding twenty thousand Baht, or both." Even if what he said is true, it's still defamation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gulfsailor Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, FruitPudding said: Thanks for finding the link to prove what I said "Whoever, imputes anything to the other person before a third person in a manner likely to impair the reputation of such other person or to expose such other person to be hated or scorned, is said to commit defamation, and shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding one year or fined not exceeding twenty thousand Baht, or both." Even if what he said is true, it's still defamation. Read the next sections 329 and 330. I don’t think the claimant has a very strong case. The defendant made his remarks on a platform which is not publicly accessible and the remarks can only be seen by the Airbnb hosts with which the claimants wishes to make a booking. As such, providing the defendant can prove his statements were true, there is a legitimate interest according to section 329/1, because the Airbnb rating system is designed to warn other hosts about a potentially troublesome guest. Neither the general public, nor hosts which the claimants has no interest in booking a stay with can see the negative remarks. If this is considered defamation, then any negative information about customers shared between companies in many branches would be considered defamation, which would make it impossible for banks, insurance companies, airlines, etc to protect each other against malevolent actors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 21 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said: Read the next sections 329 and 330. I don’t think the claimant has a very strong case. The defendant made his remarks on a platform which is not publicly accessible and the remarks can only be seen by the Airbnb hosts with which the claimants wishes to make a booking. As such, providing the defendant can prove his statements were true, there is a legitimate interest according to section 329/1, because the Airbnb rating system is designed to warn other hosts about a potentially troublesome guest. Neither the general public, nor hosts which the claimants has no interest in booking a stay with can see the negative remarks. If this is considered defamation, then any negative information about customers shared between companies in many branches would be considered defamation, which would make it impossible for banks, insurance companies, airlines, etc to protect each other against malevolent actors. Curious about this comment... 21 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said: The defendant made his remarks on a platform which is not publicly accessible and the remarks can only be seen by the Airbnb hosts with which the claimants wishes to make a booking. How did the 'aggrieved party' (guest) know of the negative review ? OR... is the review from the hose also returned to the guest ?? ...... I recently stayed at an Air-b-n-b and saw the hosts 'review of me as a guest'... I assumed it was public for anyone to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_lob Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 9 hours ago, ChipButty said: I did ask you before but you didn't answer me, Do you charge a CLEANING FEE? and while we are at it, do you charge extra for electric and water? We do not charge a cleaning fee because we have full time cleaning staff. The state they left the villa is was beyond filthy. Electric and water are included. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_lob Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 41 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said: Read the next sections 329 and 330. I don’t think the claimant has a very strong case. The defendant made his remarks on a platform which is not publicly accessible and the remarks can only be seen by the Airbnb hosts with which the claimants wishes to make a booking. As such, providing the defendant can prove his statements were true, there is a legitimate interest according to section 329/1, because the Airbnb rating system is designed to warn other hosts about a potentially troublesome guest. Neither the general public, nor hosts which the claimants has no interest in booking a stay with can see the negative remarks. If this is considered defamation, then any negative information about customers shared between companies in many branches would be considered defamation, which would make it impossible for banks, insurance companies, airlines, etc to protect each other against malevolent actors. Very good points made here. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, mr_lob said: We do not charge a cleaning fee because we have full time cleaning staff. The state they left the villa is was beyond filthy. Electric and water are included. Perhaps thats a lesson to carry forwards. Cleaning fee charged if place is left unreasonably dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gulfsailor Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 24 minutes ago, mr_lob said: Very good points made here. Thank you I quickly checked the Airbnb guest rating system, and as default anyone logged in can read the reviews from the hosts about the guests. The sharing and search engine results can be turned off though in the account settings. So it’s not as straightforward as I first thought. However, only the first name, home city and a guest uploaded profile picture (which isn’t required) are identifying details. And it’s not that you can publicly search for someone’s guest profile. So the claim that the losses are being unable to book with other hosts is correct, but his losses won’t go further than that, and it’s exactly how this part of the rating system is designed to work. My suggestion to the op is to escalate this to the Airbnb legal team, as this could have a profound impact on their rating system. oh, and check if other hosts have made similar comments about the claimant, and if the claimant ever made negative statements about hosts on the Airbnb platform, as it cuts both ways. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipButty Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said: Perhaps thats a lesson to carry forwards. Cleaning fee charged if place is left unreasonably dirty. Lots of host do charge a cleaning fee, and the host is able to make a claim if excessive cleaning is needed, sounds to me if it was that dirty only 2 day stay, they had a party, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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