Isaan Funerals

[bunnydrops]

One big plus about being buried is you have something to leave a message on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKNhP28T9qg&ab_channel=BossDT

A part of you lives on forever.

[Negita43]

On 2/5/2024 at 6:55 AM, grain said:

Your village sounds like our village. It's a great at night unless someone dies, gets married, or becomes a monk. Then like you I'm looking at getting out for a week.

Don't speak too soon Songkran is coming!

[kimamey]

On 2/6/2024 at 3:14 PM, jts-khorat said:

 

I think you read the wrong things then. Theravada Buddhism in itself is actually quite a logical setup and its basic tenets are reflected well in Thai/Isaan culture.

 

But the same as you would not expect anybody in the west to eat only fish or beaver meat on Fridays or pray to a specific different saint each day or do daily bible studies in the circle of your family each evening, obviously popular culture is unlikely to have ever been an exact match to religious orthodoxy. It is not different in Thailand.

 

A lot of religions are followed by people who spend their time trying to explain why they aren't making much effort to abide by the rules of their religion. Religions generally start from some fairly reasonable sensible concepts or guidance. Then a group of men, it's always men, decide that if they claim to have a fuller understanding of what was being put forward they can elevate themselves above the rest of the followers of that religion. This is particularly the case if there isn't actually any, or much direct evidence of the thinking at the time the religion started. That's certainly the case with Christianity and Buddhism, where nothing was written down until many years later and where, if you wanted to feel a little more important you could claim to have a better understanding and start your own version and thus be the head of it. These men have the ability to either absolve you of any responsibility for following rules or at least not pushing too hard in suggesting you should.

 

Obviously very few people will obey all rules absolutely whether they are religious or not, but I find it noticeable here that in a lot of cases there doesn't even seem to be much effort to follow the 5 precepts. Take the idea of not taking life. If you look at the UK as an example, vegetarianism seem much more prevalent in the UK, where religion is dying out, than in Thailand. My view on the reason for this is that there are 2 main reasons to be vegetarian or vegan. One is for health and the other for moral reasons although these can often overlap. I've never been totally vegetarian but when I lived in the UK my daughter was so I moved away from a lot of meat and fish. When I was shopping I'd often see things like pork pies for example. In my head I knew I liked them but I shouldn't have them. Almost always, with the occasional weakness I'd resit the temptation. Here I think that monks don't really push that and put it as something you should try to do, if they mention it at all, so without any real pressure to avoid meat and the silly excuse that I didn't kill it, most people eat meat.

 

Thailand kills thousands of innocent men, women and children because they won't have a proper driving test, wear helmets or seatbelts, or have a proper functioning police force. Ultimately that's their choice but it doesn't show the respect for life they like to claim.

 

I did actually ask a monk about the killing of animals for food. He said that you have to eat meat to live. Obviously that's not true, and judging by the grin on his face he knew that as well.

 

Lastly you say you think I read the wrong things. You have no idea what, or how much I read so you can't know if it's right or wrong. I did mention that I thought vanity wasn't very Buddhist when replying to a post saying that the loud noise was a 'face thing'. Is that incorrect?

[kimamey]

On 2/7/2024 at 11:02 PM, Stevey said:

I don’t know how eager I’d be to get some bones. 

 

I liked the guy so I was happy to pick bones out of the ashes but I left the choosing of which to take to the rest of the family.

[kimamey]

15 hours ago, bunnydrops said:

One big plus about being buried is you have something to leave a message on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKNhP28T9qg&ab_channel=BossDT

A part of you lives on forever.

 

Brilliant. Thanks for that.

[youreavinalaff]

3 hours ago, kimamey said:

Thailand kills thousands of innocent men, women and children because they won't have a proper driving test, wear helmets or seatbelts, or have a proper functioning police force. Ultimately that's their choice but it doesn't show the respect for life they like to claim. 

Thailand does no kill people with RTAs. The people kill themselves.

 

A fully functioning police force would have little effect. You can't police everyone, everywhere, all of the time.

 

Thais need to realise the idea of safety on the roads. Not just law.

[kimamey]

On 2/9/2024 at 2:43 PM, youreavinalaff said:

Thailand does no kill people with RTAs. The people kill themselves.

 

A fully functioning police force would have little effect. You can't police everyone, everywhere, all of the time.

 

Thais need to realise the idea of safety on the roads. Not just law.

 

Sometimes they kill other innocent people as well as themselves. The thought that the police might do their job and you couldn't just get away with it just by giving a policeman a few hundred baht works in other countries pretty well. If it didn't then why have any traffic police.

 

Thais should understand the idea of safety but I'm not sure many of them think far enough ahead to grasp that.

[Stevey]

On 2/18/2024 at 8:18 PM, kimamey said:

 

Sometimes they kill other innocent people as well as themselves. The thought that the police might do their job and you couldn't just get away with it just by giving a policeman a few hundred baht works in other countries pretty well. If it didn't then why have any traffic police.

 

Thais should understand the idea of safety but I'm not sure many of them think far enough ahead to grasp that.

 

In the village you’ll see a teen riding a modified Wave with stupid bicycle size wheels and somehow they’ve gone to the trouble of being able to switch the lights off.  On one occasion I pulled out onto the main village road from a side Soi and one of these kids nearly hit me as I pulled out and couldn’t see him. Then there’s the dogs sleeping on the road that get up when they see the light approaching and the tractors, Salengs and Samlors with zero lights or reflective items displayed at night. And no one does a thing, people are too scared to complain. 

[jts-khorat]

On 2/9/2024 at 5:17 AM, kimamey said:

I find it noticeable here that in a lot of cases there doesn't even seem to be much effort to follow the 5 precepts. Take the idea of not taking life. If you look at the UK as an example, vegetarianism seem much more prevalent in the UK, where religion is dying out, than in Thailand.

 

You quite misunderstand the Five Precepts. They are not meant to be commandments to be followed for moral reasons.

 

Instead, their main reason is that only with a mind unperturbed enough (eg developing enough Sila = morality), it is possible to meditate and during this practice to recognize reality as it truly is, leading to enlightenment (the Eightfold Path). They are nothing but a tool to prepare the mind properly.

 

Therefore, somebody not taking on the path of a monk, or even a serious lay practitioner, has little direct benefit of following the Five Precepts in the sense of a legal paragraph, as there is no grey-bearded man in the sky giving them points for it. People going to the temple take the Five precepts in a formulaic way, only for this day, to demonstrate respect for the monks who are actually following the Precepts permanently.

 

The better reason, for a normal Thai person, to follow a moral path (not necessarily the Five Precepts alone) is the concept of Kamma. Here, being unskillful in one's actions creates immediate negative Kamma, which will need to be lived down during this or the next life. From this concept it makes sense, not to do senseless killing, or killing in a way which accrues this negative Kamma (as you have chosen 'killing' as your example).

 

'Eating meat' is, however, not killing; monks regularly eat meat, with the rule being, that they cannot take meat offered from an animal killed especially for them and them getting knowledge of this fact -- the negative Kamma accrues solely with the one who did the killing, the reason why butcher is one of the unskillful jobs in Theravada (in previous times, often it were Chinese or Muslims, who took on this occupation for this simple reason).

 

The flipside of the concept of kamma, which you also have observed, is, that you can erase negative Kamma by doing merit. Hence, presents to temples, giving alms during alms round, etc etc. Hence the behaviour of the average Thai makes perfect sense in relation to the tenets of Theravada Buddhism.

 

As I said, if your 'reading up' on Theravada Buddhism has not shown you these connections, you have not scratched on the surface of things enough.

Edited February 19 by jts-khorat

[quake]

6 hours ago, jts-khorat said:

'Eating meat' is, however, not killing; monks regularly eat meat, with the rule being, that they cannot take meat offered from an animal killed especially for them and them getting knowledge of this fact -- the negative Kamma accrues solely with the one who did the killing, the reason why butcher is one of the unskillful jobs in Theravada (in previous times, often it were Chinese or Muslims, who took on this occupation for this simple reason).

 

That's just a cop-out.

 

[jts-khorat]

8 hours ago, quake said:

That's just a cop-out.

 

You might well interpret it that way. However, that is the original Buddhavacana according to Theravada.

 

In case you do not like that, there are many other Buddhist schools to choose from who teach vegetarism or have a sanskritisized concept of Karma; historically starting with Mahayana (of course you have the Bodhisattva concept distinctly changing the Buddha's message), and of course you have all the Vajrayana schools (with all the tantric stuff added).

 

Take your pick, it is a big world!

[quake]

Just now, jts-khorat said:

 

You might well interpret it that way. However, that is the original Buddhavacana according to Theravada.

 

In case you do not like that, there are many other Buddhist schools to choose from who teach vegetarism or have a sanskritisized concept of Karma; historically starting with Mahayana (of course you have the Bodhisattva concept distinctly changing the Buddha's message), and of course you have all the Vajrayana schools (with all the tantric stuff added).

 

Take your pick, it is a big world!

 

I dislike all religions and cults.

Sure there are many good teachings from them all.

But up to people what they want to believe.

I choose not to. 

 

 

 

[kimamey]

On 2/20/2024 at 3:30 PM, quake said:

 

I dislike all religions and cults.

Sure there are many good teachings from them all.

But up to people what they want to believe.

I choose not to. 

 

 

 

 

 

The 5 precepts being a good example. Which is why there's a need for a group of men, as far as I know it's always men, who are there to find an interpretation that suits your needs and you can give them money, food and power. And of course massage their ego.

 

[quake]

13 minutes ago, kimamey said:

 

 

The 5 precepts being a good example. Which is why there's a need for a group of men, as far as I know it's always men, who are there to find an interpretation that suits your needs and you can give them money, food and power. And of course massage their ego.

 

 

I find the treatment of females in the Thai version of Buddhism, just weird.

What's with this crazy calibrations,  when a young man goes in the temple for 

3 months. and for the ladies, you just be quite and go cook the food.

Why are women not just equal.

Seems outdated and backward.  

 

 

 

 

[kimamey]

17 minutes ago, quake said:

 

I find the treatment of females in the Thai version of Buddhism, just weird.

What's with this crazy calibrations,  when a young man goes in the temple for 

3 months. and for the ladies, you just be quite and go cook the food.

Why are women not just equal.

Seems outdated and backward.  

 

 

 

 

It keeps the power with the men doesn't it.

[WilliamSmits]

Last year my wife's mother died and we spent a week in the village and I learned a great deal more while taking photos and participating.

The process is not outsourced as in the west.  The family and friends take care of the body (washing and dressing up).

The casket stays at the house (no funeral home) and is attended 24/7 until the funeral.

Early morning is the serious part with monks and close relatives, then the cooking and music starts. Tents, tables, chairs and all more are supplied by the temple.

All day people come, sit, eat, drink and share stories. 

It's the process of saying goodbye over few days, rather than in few minutes at a funeral home.

The casket gets carried to the temple, speeches are made and the fire is lit. Next day the remains are collected and buried.

Death here is part of life and not hidden away or outsourced and I feel it helps dealing with the loss in a better way.

 

[lungbing]

As above in my wife's village in Khon Kaen except that close relatives go through the ashes for a bone or tooth to keep and the rest of the ashes are  put under a tree, not buried.