Expat Tax Twists in Thailand: Navigating the New Landscape in 2024

[Mike Lister]

58 minutes ago, maddermax said:

I wish you would stop with this article as it is only causing panic.

These laws have been in place for a long time but never enforced as I believe the Government realises that this would 'kill the goose that laid the golden egg'.

Even though they do not get any income from taxing us expats they benefit in many other ways.

Articles such as these help raise awareness and help educate many, we've seen ample evidence of that, that's why they are posted. If people panic it's probably because they are not informed, reading these threads helps change that.

[CartagenaWarlock]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

If you are remitting savings that were earned prior to 1 January 2024, those savings are not taxable in Thailand. If you are remitting savings that were earned in part after that date but were taxed in the UK, they are still not Thai taxable.

How to prove it? Everybody will say I am bringing the prior year's savings. 

[CartagenaWarlock]

23 hours ago, 1happykamper said:

. and if I do pay taxes in Thailand.. what will I get in return ? 555

A decent life that you could not get at home. If you could, you could return to your native land.

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, maddermax said:

I wish you would stop with this article as it is only causing panic.

These laws have been in place for a long time but never enforced as I believe the Government realises that this would 'kill the goose that laid the golden egg'.

Even though they do not get any income from taxing us expats they benefit in many other ways.

Yes, I completely agree with you. One only has to read through a few of the postings on these threads to see that all they achieve is an INCREASED level of misunderstanding, worry and stress. And inevitably they provide ample opportunity for malcontents, of which there are many on this forum nowadays, to indulge themselves with their their anti Thai sentiments.

 

I have no intention of reacting to ANY information posted here unless it comes from an official government source.

[Mike Lister]

31 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

How to prove it? Everybody will say I am bringing the prior year's savings. 

Statement dated end of year. And if you can't prove it, that means you're telling porkies and should reconsider 

[stix40]

4 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Sounds like a simple attempt to avoid paying taxes.. and not in the spirit of the law.... 

Just asking the question about gifting 

How does it work ?

If it's a legitimate way of minimising tax.

Not keen on pay tax multiple times are You !

[garygooner]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Articles such as these help raise awareness and help educate many, we've seen ample evidence of that, that's why they are posted

True, and your tax guide is informative. The trouble is all the repetition now. 

Time to relax & just post new info from tax experts & Thai RD.  

 

 

[Pouatchee]

i read the full article and still nothing that seems to help/apply to me. 

 

from the article:

 

Quote

 

 

Previously a haven for foreign income, Thailand’s tax code offered a sweet deal to expats:

Foreign earnings stashed abroad remained blissfully untaxed. However, the new year has ushered in a paradigm shift. Now, all foreign earned income brought into Thailand by tax residents, including expats, is subject to personal income tax. This marks a significant departure from the past, leaving many expats wondering how to navigate this uncharted territory.

 

 

 

correct me if i'm wrong, but either the rich, or LTR visas might have solutions. nothing for the average joe on a non-o for marriage or retirement.

 

thanks for nothing... 

 

[Kalasin Jo]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:24 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

All Thais with income are obliged to declare it and pay tax if applicable - many are within the exempt bracket.  Income-earning Thais do not have any exemption from filing a tax return.   Who are "the Thais earning a lot of money" who are exempted from tax to whom you refer?

Perhaps the ones who work on a casual basis for cash or benefits in kind ( Lao Khao springs to mind! Seriously) out in the sticks? That's aIot of people here. I read somewhere that over 50% of the Thai working age population are casual workers, not officially employed or registered business owners. Do my Thai in law's know what a tax return is? I doubt it. They live from one day to the next. MiL is illiterate  but very good with cash! Does my wife? Definitely not.

[Mike Lister]

Un-necessarily argumentative and off topic post removed. The topic is the new tax laws in Thailand, not the quality of the article.

[Somrak]

I have benefited little financially here.  I paid for the education of Thai children.  PhD.  Now I have to pay 35% taxes here even though I would have to pay 30% less in Switzerland.  Craziness.

[Presnock]

On 2/10/2024 at 7:58 AM, MartinL said:

From the linked article:-

 

"John, a retired teacher, received his UK pension .... John could potentially qualify for the “Wealthy Pensioner” category once he reaches 50 years old in a few years".

 

So 'John' appears to be retired from teaching in his mid-40s or earlier. I can't imagine that any UK teachers' pension fund would allow a member to draw a pension at such a young age. I thought the minimum age for pension eligibility was 55 with, I seem to recall, moves being proposed to increase this minimum age. Something not right about this example but I doubt it's 'real people'.

 

also at such an age, he could not have been a teacher for long enough to draw a pension of $80KUSD for the wealthy pensioner LTR visa in my opinion since I really have no idea about the salaries and pensions of UK folks.

[Mike Lister]

12 minutes ago, Somrak said:

I have benefited little financially here.  I paid for the education of Thai children.  PhD.  Now I have to pay 35% taxes here even though I would have to pay 30% less in Switzerland.  Craziness.

I strongly suspect from what you have written that you do not understand the new ruling. Very very few people will find themselves paying 35% tax here, unless they are extremely wealthy, have no TEDA and import substantial amount of money each year. Even then!!! 

[Presnock]

On 2/10/2024 at 12:26 PM, Kwaibill said:

Where can  the “rules” be found?

I have a not too bad income from the U.S. from SS and investments, but the way it is configured I do not meet the threshold to have to pay taxes there. Only about 1/3  would be taxable if I did exceed that limit, but I don’t.

How to determine if I should be taxed in Thailand?

Might consider locating to somewhere else for six plus months, CostsRica e.g., if the numbers don’t work.

well, if your investments are over the 120K or 150K  baht then you might have to pay on that but definitely nothing on the SS due to article 21 of the DTA between Thailand and the US.  Check out the charts for needing a Thai Tax ID number.

 

[Mike Lister]

2 hours ago, garygooner said:

True, and your tax guide is informative. The trouble is all the repetition now. 

Time to relax & just post new info from tax experts & Thai RD.  

 

 

The ASEAN Now News Team works very hard and selects articles it thinks are noteworthy, for a variety of reasons, Moderators play no role in their selection whatsoever. 

 

The other point to make here is that even in this thread, there are several people who are asking first timer questions about this subject and asking where the rules can be found. I rather think therefore that it is not yet time to sit back and relax, not if we are to make most people aware. 

[Kalasin Jo]

A number of points:

1. This revamp is probably aimed at wealthy Thais offshoring their wealth or working abroad and remitting income back to Thailand. Previously that could have been entirely tax free. Now that advantage has gone for them. Unfortunately though expats are also caught by this if in country for 180 days, 6 months,  or more. It is a rule common to many countries but it usually brings benefits too.

It is going to be particularly uncomfortable for those genuine retirees, ie of state pension age in their home country, living here on modest pensions, like myself. Especially if you are supporting a Thai spouse, possibly children etc. and as we get older probably requiring more and more expensive healthcare.

2. We all know that Thailand does not treat us retirees as permanent residents for immigration purposes, ever. We are long stay tourists, however long we live here. Even if we have Thai spouses, live with them, provide homes for them,  have children  with them or provide for their children from previous relationships. For decades in many cases. I'm sure most of us felt, if we thought about it at all, that was ok if we were not required to pay income tax here on our pensions.

Despite there being no access other than on a paying basis to the Thai state healthcare system which may creak alot but it works.

Despite there being no route to permanent residency to end the annual extension process, the home visits, the need for re entry permits, the reporting by TM 47 and TM 30, the different requirements of individual offices and officers etc.

Despite the dual pricing policy Thailand operates for foreigners, which becomes less justifiable as Thailand's  middle class grows living better lives on better incomes. I know a few. Why should I pay more than them?

 

So will Thailand remedy this treatment of foreigners if it is going to require annual tax declarations from retirees, probably leading to annual tax bills?

Will Thailand stop treating us as long stay tourists and start treating us as residents with the same rights and benefits as tax resident Thais .....or continue to waive the requirement for tax declarations? I doubt anyone in power has given this any thought. They should and we should be prepared to press them to do so.

3. The brief headline summary refers to earned income. What's the definition of earned? From employment seems obvious. From investments? From pensions? Both private and state? The UK government has for quite some years stated that the UK state pension is a state benefit contrary to the belief held by many including me (and as I believe  was originally the case) that your NI contributions made whilst working went towards your future state pension. Now the UK government says NI contributions made by the working go towards the state pensions currently being paid to you and to me. So my point is that a UK state pension according to the UK government is not earned, it is a state benefit.

4. As I understand it the UK / Thailand DTA does not include pension income other than pensions  from UK government employment. So not the UK state pension, not private pensions.

5. The Thai income tax thresholds are indeed very low bar. Because incomes here at least for many are still very low. The first, tax free, amount of income seems to be about half the basic UK state pension much less if your pension was frozen years ago. The subsequent Thai tax bands are low too as the % to be taxed increases.

However there are pretty generous allowances: for example if you support a spouse who has no income, plus another if you are 65 years old or older. But even so many will end up paying some income tax here, based on current information and a DTA may not help, as in the case of the one with the UK.

[moe666]

Ah, the worry warts have something new to worry about. I asked my lawyer about this and she is checking it out.

[Mike Lister]

Two off topic posts removed, the subject is Thai taxation, not the US.

 

And now a third post hidden, the topic is still Thai tax, it hasn't changed! The thread has nothing whatsoever to do with the USA.,

[Presnock]

23 hours ago, Bday Prang said:

A warm comforting feeling, that you have "done the right thing"   and the right to comment on here with a sense of smug superiority, like those who call for overstayers to be hung drawn and quartered..  You may also get a nice  receipt  

90-day reorts, tm30 reports, yearly report, inhospital health insurance premiums, etc...just wait as more and more "scooter" riders are on 60CC bikes or bigger.

 

[Presnock]

22 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You really need to do some reading and relax a little.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1316818-personal-income-tax-guide-for-foreigners-thailand/

 

 

 

 

as Mike said do some reading, the OCED July 2023 agreement says that all the 138 signatory nations MUST trade banking data on tax residents, even China signed on!

 

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

A number of points:

1. This revamp is probably aimed at wealthy Thais offshoring their wealth or working abroad and remitting income back to Thailand. Previously that could have been entirely tax free. Now that advantage has gone for them. Unfortunately though expats are also caught by this if in country for 180 days, 6 months,  or more. It is a rule common to many countries but it usually brings benefits too.

It is going to be particularly uncomfortable for those genuine retirees, ie of state pension age in their home country, living here on modest pensions, like myself. Especially if you are supporting a Thai spouse, possibly children etc. and as we get older probably requiring more and more expensive healthcare.

2. We all know that Thailand does not treat us retirees as permanent residents for immigration purposes, ever. We are long stay tourists, however long we live here. Even if we have Thai spouses, live with them, provide homes for them,  have children  with them or provide for their children from previous relationships. For decades in many cases. I'm sure most of us felt, if we thought about it at all, that was ok if we were not required to pay income tax here on our pensions.

Despite there being no access other than on a paying basis to the Thai state healthcare system which may creak alot but it works.

Despite there being no route to permanent residency to end the annual extension process, the home visits, the need for re entry permits, the reporting by TM 47 and TM 30, the different requirements of individual offices and officers etc.

Despite the dual pricing policy Thailand operates for foreigners, which becomes less justifiable as Thailand's  middle class grows living better lives on better incomes. I know a few. Why should I pay more than them?

 

So will Thailand remedy this treatment of foreigners if it is going to require annual tax declarations from retirees, probably leading to annual tax bills?

Will Thailand stop treating us as long stay tourists and start treating us as residents with the same rights and benefits as tax resident Thais .....or continue to waive the requirement for tax declarations? I doubt anyone in power has given this any thought. They should and we should be prepared to press them to do so.

3. The brief headline summary refers to earned income. What's the definition of earned? From employment seems obvious. From investments? From pensions? Both private and state? The UK government has for quite some years stated that the UK state pension is a state benefit contrary to the belief held by many including me (and as I believe  was originally the case) that your NI contributions made whilst working went towards your future state pension. Now the UK government says NI contributions made by the working go towards the state pensions currently being paid to you and to me. So my point is that a UK state pension according to the UK government is not earned, it is a state benefit.

4. As I understand it the UK / Thailand DTA does not include pension income other than pensions  from UK government employment. So not the UK state pension, not private pensions.

5. The Thai income tax thresholds are indeed very low bar. Because incomes here at least for many are still very low. The first, tax free, amount of income seems to be about half the basic UK state pension much less if your pension was frozen years ago. The subsequent Thai tax bands are low too as the % to be taxed increases.

However there are pretty generous allowances: for example if you support a spouse who has no income, plus another if you are 65 years old or older. But even so many will end up paying some income tax here, based on current information and a DTA may not help, as in the case of the one with the UK.

Agreed re. 1 & 2.

 

Point 3. The article uses imprecise language which does not reflect the Thai Revenue Code, you can safety ignore the terms used. Question and Answer 6 in the link following defines income:   https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

 

Point 4 - agreed, only UK Government pensions are described in the DTA and excluded.

 

Point 5 - the combination of the zero rated tax band of the first 150k, and, the TEDA (Tax Exemptions Deductions Allowances) for an over 65 year old person, equal an amount very close to that of the UK personal Allowance.

 

[Presnock]

23 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

I am registered as non resident, I get the state pension and was getting an income up to a couple years ago from assets. Sold those assets a couple of years ago. But I gain interest on what is now savings in the bank. I get that as a gross amount not ta deducted. My accountant told me that HMRC have said I do not need to make a UK tax return in the future. Or they will contact me if they think I need to submit a return. 

 

I suggest that what my post said is essentially the same as what you mentioned " you must still pay UK tax on any income that arises there". 

 

As a side note. I am not sure if HMRC expect me to declare the interest earned on savings to the Thai RD. When Thai RD would only be taxing income brought into the country! But and this is something I need to find out. With the Pension and interest earned, it takes me over the tax free threshold. So I am aware I may have to pay tax on that in the UK. But that would then negate paying taxes here in Thailand as my state pension would also have been taxed. 

 

Having been to my local RD when applying for a TIN, they said as long as I pay tax in the UK, they weren't interested in collecting taxes from me.

 

That is my experience.

 

   

you might want to wait as pensions might not be considered "earned income".

 

[Presnock]

23 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

I am registered as non resident, I get the state pension and was getting an income up to a couple years ago from assets. Sold those assets a couple of years ago. But I gain interest on what is now savings in the bank. I get that as a gross amount not ta deducted. My accountant told me that HMRC have said I do not need to make a UK tax return in the future. Or they will contact me if they think I need to submit a return. 

 

I suggest that what my post said is essentially the same as what you mentioned " you must still pay UK tax on any income that arises there". 

 

As a side note. I am not sure if HMRC expect me to declare the interest earned on savings to the Thai RD. When Thai RD would only be taxing income brought into the country! But and this is something I need to find out. With the Pension and interest earned, it takes me over the tax free threshold. So I am aware I may have to pay tax on that in the UK. But that would then negate paying taxes here in Thailand as my state pension would also have been taxed. 

 

Having been to my local RD when applying for a TIN, they said as long as I pay tax in the UK, they weren't interested in collecting taxes from me.

 

That is my experience.

 

   

Also, we have been told we only must get a Thai tax id number when we have assessible income...key here is assessible.

 

[Presnock]

20 hours ago, Gknrd said:

Capital gains are a big part of my income. I personally would not consider living there . Just me I guess. Another cog in the wheel for retirement IMHO. Don't want to do the yearly extension, Don't want to do the 90 day reports, Do not want to deal with the Thai tax man. Not to mention all the rules that go along with retirement there for US expats. Pass big time.

Like the old saying goes "Nice to visit, but would not want to live there"

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Presnock said:

you might want to wait as pensions might not be considered "earned income".

 

The point is moot. Pensions, in fact all income, that has already been the subject of tax in the home country will not be taxed again here, that much has been confirmed. Tax paid on any income in the home country can be used to offset any Thai tax liability, if one should arise.

[Kalasin Jo]

9 hours ago, Dan SG said:

Don't mean to be bearer of bad news but that is bringing money into Thailand! 

Yes it is. But it is not income if it is a credit card. It is borrowed money. That's what credit is and it needs repaying along with interest. Different with a debit card.

I would add that using foreign cards, debit or credit,  can be a very expensive way of financing life here on a cash basis, especially drawing cash at Thai ATMs no matter which bank owns the machine. A fixed charge of 220 baht each time, possible loss on the exchange rate plus commission and I don't know about you but my UK bank charges me a processing fee too dependant on the amount converted to GBP that equals or exceeds 220 baht. So all in all a total cost of at least 500 baht or more each withdrawal. Using a Wise UK debit card to make cash withdrawals even if you have previously converted to baht with them is still very expensive too.

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Also, we have been told we only must get a Thai tax id number when we have assessible income...key here is assessible.

 

Please see Q&A Q6 in the link for the definition.

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

[Kalasin Jo]

19 hours ago, Derek B said:

If I pay Thai income tax I expect something in return. If being taxed as a local citizen I would expect the same state benefits (whatever they are), the right to vote and relief from any Dual Pricing as a Gov quoted policy eg., National Parks & Health Care.

Quite. I too have made this point. I doubt the powers even thought of the effect on expats. I think they are looking at wealthy Thais offshoring their wealth and those working abroad. But it catches expats too.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

Yes it is. But it is not income if it is a credit card. It is borrowed money. That's what credit is and it needs repaying along with interest. Different with a debit card.

I would add that using foreign cards, debit or credit,  can be a very expensive way of financing life here on a cash basis, especially drawing cash at Thai ATMs no matter which bank owns the machine. A fixed charge of 220 baht each time, possible loss on the exchange rate plus commission and I don't know about you but my UK bank charges me a processing fee too dependant on the amount converted to GBP that equals or exceeds 220 baht. So all in all a total cost of at least 500 baht or more each withdrawal. Using a Wise UK debit card to make cash withdrawals even if you have previously converted to baht with them is still very expensive too.

Do not confuse use of the word "income", as in payment received for something, with, "income", as in funds received from overseas.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, INV said:

So I was calculating if I bring in 999k and I thought I needed pay 20% tax flat on that, minus some reduction but was told its per

income bracket. Can someone confirm this is correct?

0 - 150,000 Baht:

This income is exempt from tax.

Taxable income: 0 Baht

Tax owed: 0 Baht

150,001 - 300,000 Baht:

This portion of income is taxed at 5%.

Taxable income: 150,000 Baht (300,000 - 150,000)

Tax owed: 7,500 Baht (150,000 * 5%)

300,001 - 500,000 Baht:

This portion of income is taxed at 10%.

Taxable income: 200,000 Baht (500,000 - 300,000)

Tax owed: 20,000 Baht (200,000 * 10%)

500,001 - 750,000 Baht:

This portion of income is taxed at 15%.

Taxable income: 250,000 Baht (750,000 - 500,000)

Tax owed: 37,500 Baht (250,000 * 15%)

750,001 - 999,000 Baht:

This portion of income is taxed at 20%.

Taxable income: 249,000 Baht (999,000 - 750,000)

Tax owed: 49,800 Baht (249,000 * 20%)

Total Tax Calculation:

0 Baht for the first bracket

+ 7,500 Baht for the second bracket

+ 20,000 Baht for the third bracket

+ 37,500 Baht for the fourth bracket

+ 49,800 Baht for the fifth bracket

Total Tax Owed = 114,800 Baht

If your math is correct I can agree but honestly, you need to make a table out of it so that people can read and understand it easily, as it stands I don't have time to try to work out what you've written to see if it is correct.

 

But at a quick glance, you appear to have left out Thai TEDA, tax deductions, exemptions, allowances. .