Despite U.S. pressure, the idea of a Palestinian state seems farther away than ever

[Nick Carter icp]

23 hours ago, ezzra said:

 

I wonder, why there is absolutely no stance from the international community who cares SO MUCH for the Palestinians for the 600,000 dead and the devastating mortality rate in a war the Ethiopian government has deliberately tried to shield from international public,

And with 5.5 million displaced, starving Sudanese. I wonder why there are no repercussions for Syria’s President Assad who murdered over 300,000 Syrians. Where are the furious voices demonstrating the “disappearance” of an estimated 12 million mainly Muslim Uighur in China. Well, that's because they're not Jews
Let’s be clear, to this very day, the Hamas charter calls for the obliteration of Israel, And just to be even more clear, there are 22 Arab countries in the Middle East with an estimated population of 330 million Muslims. and tiny Israel is fighting for its life...

 

    Don't forget the Burmese either , atrocities and actual real genocide happening there . they must be begging the IDF just to drop one bomb on them , just one Israeli bomb so the World will take notice of their situation 

[ezzra]

There are many anti Israeli posters here that condemned Israel for it's treatment of the Palestinians but don't 

offer solutions, 

What is Israel to do when an utter mayhem and madness is going on in Gaza at the moment? just withdraw and

leave it to Hamas to control as if they were doing a fine job before,

 

Withdraw and let Hamas dig more tunnels and arm themselves for the next attack ?that everyone knows it will happen

because this is the resolves of the Palestinian population to get back ALL OF ISRAEL?

 

Non of the other Arab countries are willing to get involved by sending their forces to control the situation,

which leaves Israel, by hook or by crook, having to control the chaotic scenes, so hence the 

free for all wild-west behaviour each to himself like and the mounting casualties, which will continue to rise...

[Jingthing]

4 hours ago, Neeranam said:

What do you think of the latest attrocity, killing 100 civilians who were just trying to get food?

Can't believe you are still defending Israel on a public forum. 

I think you're repeating Hamas propaganda.

[simple1]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

There are many anti Israeli posters here that condemned Israel for it's treatment of the Palestinians but don't 

offer solutions, 

What is Israel to do when an utter mayhem and madness is going on in Gaza at the moment? just withdraw and

leave it to Hamas to control as if they were doing a fine job before,

 

Withdraw and let Hamas dig more tunnels and arm themselves for the next attack ?that everyone knows it will happen

because this is the resolves of the Palestinian population to get back ALL OF ISRAEL?

 

Non of the other Arab countries are willing to get involved by sending their forces to control the situation,

which leaves Israel, by hook or by crook, having to control the chaotic scenes, so hence the 

free for all wild-west behaviour each to himself like and the mounting casualties, which will continue to rise...

 

Do you believe the Israelis would permit armed members of Arab forces into Gaza? Posting "solutions" would be a complete waste of time. Critiquing Israeli actions is perhaps the only means available for members to express concern for the innocent Palestinians being killed and injured in their thousands.

[ezzra]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

I think you're repeating Hamas propaganda.

This is from Israel news reports, many of the dead were crushed by the lorries who were delivering the food while

looting the food, others were shot because they got too close to the Israeli tanks who were guarding the food trucks,

interesting enough that the world feels sorry for people who don't care what happens to them and still, after 30,000

dead, allow a terrorist group to dictate their faith and future, and if so, they deserves what they get...

[Jingthing]

Just now, ezzra said:

This is from Israel news reports, many of the dead were crushed by the lorries who were delivering the food while

looting the food, others were shot because they got too close to the Israeli tanks who were guarding the food trucks,

interesting enough that the world feels sorry for people who don't care what happens to them and still, after 30,000

dead, allow a terrorist group to dictate their faith and future, and if so, they deserves what they get...

The other member was clearly blaming it all on the IDF. 

[ezzra]

4 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

Do you believe the Israelis would permit armed members of Arab forces into Gaza? Posting "solutions" would be a complete waste of time. Critiquing Israeli actions is perhaps the only means available for members to express concern for the innocent Palestinians being killed and injured in their thousands.

Yes, forces from Arab countries who are at peace with Israel, like Jordan and Egypt for instance, and as for

'Critiquing Israeli actions' you can criticise as much as you like, like criticising Russia on what the they do in the

Ukraine right?

[Bkk Brian]

5 hours ago, Neeranam said:

What do you think of the latest attrocity, killing 100 civilians who were just trying to get food?

Can't believe you are still defending Israel on a public forum. 

That's nothing to do with the post you responded to and is also false the way you describe it. Your way of deflecting the genocidal terrorists of Hamas. 

[ezzra]

Just wondering what is the average Palestinian is thinking now that 5 months later from that 7th October date

and with 30,000 dead?

Gaza is in ruins, millions displaced in hunger and despair, having to loot food trucks to feed their families,

was it worth it all to do what they did back 5 moths ago? and in a hindsight wisdom would  would they

still go out and do the same? better yes, have they learned anything from all of this? What do you think?...

[Jeff the Chef]

18 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  

   As the Palestinians are not complying with the ICJ ruling then why should Israel have to comply ?

Its not fair that only one side needs to comply to he rules and the other doesn't 

 

To be fair to both sides, Israel has broken UN Resolutions and the Laws of War and Occupation as stated in the Fourth Geneva Convention.

 

https://itisapartheid.org/Documents_pdf_etc/IsraelViolationsInternationalLaw.pdf

[Jeff the Chef]

28 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Just wondering what is the average Palestinian is thinking now that 5 months later from that 7th October date

and with 30,000 dead?

Gaza is in ruins, millions displaced in hunger and despair, having to loot food trucks to feed their families,

was it worth it all to do what they did back 5 moths ago? and in a hindsight wisdom would  would they

still go out and do the same? better yes, have they learned anything from all of this? What do you think?...

 

Hopefully more sensible heads will come out of this on both sides and a 2 state solution is achieved.

[sirineou]

13 hours ago, Jingthing said:

There what is?

The vehicle of the eventual decline  of any tribe that attempted to dominate another. 

What is, Is Hubris

12 hours ago, Jingthing said:

So Israel should just passively accept genocidal terrorists?

 No absolutely not ,( Are we talking about Palestinian or Israeli genocidal terrorists?)  Because both exist in equal measure. 

Israelis  by now IMO have achieved the goal I first described.in my OP , generations have lived there and know no other life or identity they are not going anywhere if they can help it.

But on the other hand neither are the Palestinians, and they have  have been there a lot longer. 

                     At this point equitable coexistence is the only solution.

But the Israelis are trapped just as much as Palestinian though in a much better situation, but just as trapped. 

IMO Israel was a Jewish mistake of monumental proportions,IMO the strength of the  Jewish culture was that inadvertently they had  thrown away the constraints , costs and limitations of nationalism , Yes there were costs associated with internationalism, but the benefits far outweighed the costs .

 In fact there  are Jewish factions who believe that israel is a mistake, and Zion is the world not a geographical location. 

Israelis are trapped and enable to properly react by Israeli demographics. As we all know (or should)

a major problem in the world, is falling fertility rates, and israel is no different, but it has and advantage and/or  disadvantage depending on one's perspective,

Its orthodox population has a fertility  rate of , if I remember correctly  6 children per family . gradually making them a large segment of Israeli political power , and are projected to be  a large percentage of Israeli population in the not too far future . This puts pressure on Israeli politicians to do the politically expedient thing rather than the right thing.   

 

So hat is the solution? A viable palestinian state .

Viable!! there is nothing viable by the fragmented open air concentration camp that exists now. Nothing!! 

whose borders and security is guaranteed by an impartial international peace force . The US can't play any part in it, because it is far   from impartial. 

This has to be forced on Israel. only because it is unable to do so by itself do to some of the internal political dynamics I described above. 

Of course this would have to be worked out in far more detail by professionals in in the subject , of which I am not, and of many different disciplines .  

 

[Jeff the Chef]

In some ways this is very like the Irish problem, took years of terrorism by both sides before there was a solution, eventually they managed to live peacefully together and share the political power.

Took over a century to get where they are now, I know, but it does go to show what's possible, and who would have thought nearly 50 years on from the peace process that there is a chance of Irish unification, something good might come out of Brexit.

[ezzra]

25 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Hopefully more sensible heads will come out of this on both sides and a 2 state solution is achieved.

Well, the issue here is that the Palestinians want all of 'their lands back' (which is virtually the whole of Israel)

and 'from the river to the sea' attitude, there're enough external forces, who to suite their agendas,

makes sure that the Palestinians will continue to die while demanding such absurd conditions, and don't

care if 10's of thousands of them will die in wars...

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, Jeff the Chef said:

In some ways this is very like the Irish problem, took years of terrorism by both sides before there was a solution, eventually they managed to live peacefully together and share the political power.

Took over a century to get where they are now, I know, but it does go to show what's possible, and who would have thought nearly 50 years on from the peace process that there is a chance of Irish unification, something good might come out of Brexit.

 

   I don't think that the Irish are too keen on unification . the thought of all those millions of Northern Irish Brits becoming Irish citizens and moving to Cork and marching playing their flutes on Sunday mornings  doesn't really appeal to them 

[Jeff the Chef]

2 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   I don't think that the Irish are too keen on unification . the thought of all those millions of Northern Irish Brits becoming Irish citizens and moving to Cork and marching playing their flutes on Sunday mornings  doesn't really appeal to them 

 

As you say, that scenario is never going to happen, but then again why would a Northern Irish UK Citizen want to play their flutes in Cork?

As in all things if it were to happen there would be negotiations, and a peaceful outcome acceptable to both sides, hopefully.

[Nick Carter icp]

Just now, Jeff the Chef said:

 

As you say, that scenario is never going to happen, but then again why would a Northern Irish UK Citizen want to play their flutes in Cork?

As in all things if it were to happen there would be negotiations, and a peaceful outcome acceptable to both sides, hopefully.

 

   I did mean that the Northern Irish violent things would then become Irish citizens and they might resume their battle for a free Northern Irish state ?

[Jeff the Chef]

14 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Well, the issue here is that the Palestinians want all of 'their lands back' (which is virtually the whole of Israel)

and 'from the river to the sea' attitude, there're enough external forces, who to suite their agendas,

makes sure that the Palestinians will continue to die while demanding such absurd conditions, and don't

care if 10's of thousands of them will die in wars...

How much of that land is originally Israel? 

There is a whole lot of wrongs on both sides and until sensible heads sit down and work out a solution things will carry on as they are now.

[Jeff the Chef]

2 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   I did mean that the Northern Irish violent things would then become Irish citizens and they might resume their battle for a free Northern Irish state ?

I've no doubt that there are people that would want that, but then again anything is possible through negotiations between G.B. and Ireland.

Personally I cannot see the "Troubles" starting up again to anything like before the Peace Process, money talks.

[ezzra]

14 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

How much of that land is originally Israel? 

You can ask the same question regarding many countries around the world where immigrants have populated

them like the US, Australia, Canada etc.etc. and where the so called Palestinians came from

giving the fact that Jews inhabited the holy land for thousands of years, well before Islam and 'Palestinians'...

[WDSmart]

4 hours ago, ezzra said:

There are many anti Israeli posters here that condemned Israel for it's treatment of the Palestinians but don't 

offer solutions, 

What is Israel to do when an utter mayhem and madness is going on in Gaza at the moment? just withdraw and

leave it to Hamas to control as if they were doing a fine job before,

 

Withdraw and let Hamas dig more tunnels and arm themselves for the next attack ?that everyone knows it will happen

because this is the resolves of the Palestinian population to get back ALL OF ISRAEL?

 

Non of the other Arab countries are willing to get involved by sending their forces to control the situation,

which leaves Israel, by hook or by crook, having to control the chaotic scenes, so hence the 

free for all wild-west behaviour each to himself like and the mounting casualties, which will continue to rise...

"What is Israel to do when an utter mayhem and madness is going on in Gaza at the moment?"

Negotiate and carry out a treaty with the Palestinians that is something like this:
1. Israel completely withdraws and commits to a PERMANENT ceasefire, which third-party (UN?) peacekeepers enforce. Palestine returns most (75%) of the hostages.
2. The peacekeepers (UN?) also organize the immediate assistance to and the eventual rebuilding of Gaza.
3. Israel and Palestine negotiate a two-state solution. When complete, Palestine returns the rest of the hostages.
4. The peacekeepers (UN?) enforce the administration of the two-state solution and will probably have to do this for many years.

[retarius]

5 hours ago, ezzra said:

There are many anti Israeli posters here that condemned Israel for it's treatment of the Palestinians but don't 

offer solutions, 

What is Israel to do when an utter mayhem and madness is going on in Gaza at the moment? just withdraw and

leave it to Hamas to control as if they were doing a fine job before,

 

Withdraw and let Hamas dig more tunnels and arm themselves for the next attack ?that everyone knows it will happen

because this is the resolves of the Palestinian population to get back ALL OF ISRAEL?

 

Non of the other Arab countries are willing to get involved by sending their forces to control the situation,

which leaves Israel, by hook or by crook, having to control the chaotic scenes, so hence the 

free for all wild-west behaviour each to himself like and the mounting casualties, which will continue to rise...

Ezzra, we who do don't support Israel are not obliged to 'provide solutions'. If a man with a gun kills women and children in a massacre, we can be horrified by the massacre, we are not obliged to have a solution to the problem of gunmen roaming the streets (of America). I am horrified at Israel's massacring of women and children, unarmed women and children...end of story. There is no justification on earth that I will accept for this slaughter....and certainly not the canard that Israel is defending itself. The IDF are, at best, trigger happy animals. I hope they, along with their leaders, will be dragged into court by the ICJ and given very long sentences for this outrage to humanity. 

[WDSmart]

16 minutes ago, ezzra said:

You can ask the same question regarding many countries around the world where immigrants have populated

them like the US, Australia, Canada etc.etc. and where the so called Palestinians came from

giving the fact that Jews inhabited the holy land for thousands of years, well before Islam and 'Palestinians'...

"...Jews inhabited the holy land for thousands of years, well before Islam and 'Palestinians'..."
According to the the Torah, the Jews' "Holy Book", they took Canaan (the "Holy Land") from the Canaanites, from whom the Palestinians are descended, by force after their "Exodus" from Egypt.

[ezzra]

8 minutes ago, retarius said:

Ezzra, we who do don't support Israel are not obliged to 'provide solutions'. If a man with a gun kills women and children in a massacre, we can be horrified by the massacre, we are not obliged to have a solution to the problem of gunmen roaming the streets (of America). I am horrified at Israel's massacring of women and children, unarmed women and children...end of story. There is no justification on earth that I will accept for this slaughter....and certainly not the canard that Israel is defending itself. The IDF are, at best, trigger happy animals. I hope they, along with their leaders, will be dragged into court by the ICJ and given very long sentences for this outrage to humanity. 

Wow, didn't see you coming out with such statements when 1,200 men, women and babies were raped, burned,

mutilated and kidnapped 5 months ago, and you never called for the terrorists an animals to be brought to justice

did you now? or Jews lives don't matter much to you?...

[ezzra]

12 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

"...Jews inhabited the holy land for thousands of years, well before Islam and 'Palestinians'..."
According to the the Torah, the Jews' "Holy Book", they took Canaan (the "Holy Land") from the Canaanites, from whom the Palestinians are descended, by force after their "Exodus" from Egypt.

The Romans invaded the land of Palestine in 63BC. The Roman army marched into Jerusalem and took over the city. Very soon they took control of the entire country. Then the Romans put their own governors in charge to rule the people. Each governor had to make sure that the Jewish people of Palestine obeyed Roman laws and paid Roman taxes. In return the Jews were allowed to follow their own customs, and practice their own religion. However the Jews did not accept the Romans, They believed Palestine was their land, given to them by God

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I think you're repeating Hamas propaganda.

Are you saying the news is not true? Why was a tragedy like this not posted on this Sub-Forum?

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/29/middleeast/gaza-food-truck-deaths-israel-wwk-intl/index.html

[Neeranam]

16 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Wow, didn't see you coming out with such statements when 1,200 men, women and babies were raped, burned,

mutilated and kidnapped 5 months ago, and you never called for the terrorists an animals to be brought to justice

did you now? or Jews lives don't matter much to you?...

Are you for real?

Oct 7th didn't happen for no reason.

[Jeff the Chef]

55 minutes ago, ezzra said:

You can ask the same question regarding many countries around the world where immigrants have populated

them like the US, Australia, Canada etc.etc. and where the so called Palestinians came from

giving the fact that Jews inhabited the holy land for thousands of years, well before Islam and 'Palestinians'...

I meant from the original mandate, we can argue about the history of the Holy Land till the cows come home, no one is gonna win that one.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, sirineou said:

 

I think you do, but it does not fit your narrative, so you pretend that you do not.

But just in case you are sincere and you don't understand what the problem is, let me try and explain.  

Indigenous to a geographical location  people change as differed groups arrive,and live there for many generations,   depart, or are displaced. 

The western part (costal ) of Anatolia was Greek. The ruins are Greek , the inscriptions on the temples are in Greek there is along and documented Greek history there. . These facts are not in dispute.

 Turkish invaders arrived from central Asia and by force replaced the indigenous population. 

Constantinople Fell 1453

Fast forward about 600 years later do the Greeks have a claim to that area? and if they had the political and military power to do . what are the now indigenous Turks  that have lived there for close to  600 years (20 generations) supposed to do? 

That's  a problem.

I suggest that a similar problem exists in the area of interest to you. 

 

 

That's an inconvenient truth that certain posters are sure to ignore.

If I were to use their claim that living somewhere 2,000 years ago is proof of ownership I am entitled to part of England given my Celtic heritage. Somehow I don't think the present inhabitants would be willing to move out for me.

 

What's sad is that old white men half a world away did believe it and stole the land from the inhabitants of Palestine and gave it to the zionists in 1948.

I guess the ensuing chaos is karma on the west.

[WDSmart]

27 minutes ago, ezzra said:

The Romans invaded the land of Palestine in 63BC. The Roman army marched into Jerusalem and took over the city. Very soon they took control of the entire country. Then the Romans put their own governors in charge to rule the people. Each governor had to make sure that the Jewish people of Palestine obeyed Roman laws and paid Roman taxes. In return the Jews were allowed to follow their own customs, and practice their own religion. However the Jews did not accept the Romans, They believed Palestine was their land, given to them by God

"The Romans invaded the land of Palestine in 63BC."
If you believe the accounts in the Torah, the Jews took that land from the Canaanites in about 2,000 BCE.
My point in citing this is not to establish some point in time to assign the land to the Jews or not, but it is to show that this land has been inhabited by and under the control of different peoples at different times in history. This control and even the percentage of the population of any certain people has fluctuated throughout history. So, to say this land "belongs" to a certain people is not a claim that can legitimately be made.

"They believed Palestine was their land, given to them by God"

I agree with this, your last statement.