Bye bye Electric & Hello Hydrogen?

[eezergood]

I am still not convinced, yet I am also not convinced we can ever have enough power & recourses to have electric cars....... 

[Crossy]

Simple question.

 

Where will the hydrogen come from?

 

[eezergood]

12 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Simple question.

 

Where will the hydrogen come from?

 

Mars - Musk is onto it........

[CharlieH]

I thought I remembered this coming up before............

 

 

 

[retarius]

Sounds like another pipe dream and scam to replace the failing BEV markets around the globe. I'll but an electric car when the bugs are out and the charging infrastructure exists and the pierce comes down. I'm not an early adopter of tech because the price always plummets after a few years and the products improve. Hydrogen will be much the same I predict....and what will we do when all that water vapour heats up the globe? Water vapour is a more potent greenhouse gas than Co2 or methane. 

[Rotweiler]

Last summer during the peak of the heat, we (who are in a rather moderate climatic part of Thailand) had rolling brownouts.  Our PEA suggested it was due to the new number of electric vehicles sucking power.  

 

This year is supposed to be hotter.  I wonder if the brownouts (or even blackouts) will happen again?  With even greater frequency or intensity?

 

I am an electric can fan, but.......  I have a hybrid.  My electric bill is not affected.

[proton]

what could go wrong?

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

Yes, Hydrogen (H2) is great.

 

It cost five times more per kilometer than a battery electric car.
 

You take your electricity and instead of putting it straight in your battery car, you electrolyze water to make hydrogen and oxygen, you then use electricity to compress that so you can put it into tankers. Then you drive the tankers to your local fuel station using hydrogen in the process. Then you use more electricity to transfer into the fuel station tanks. Then you use more electricity to pump it into your car. then your car probably uses a fuel cell which is about 50% efficient as it wastes a lot in heat reducing the whole thing to 20% of the efficiency of having a battery electric car in the first place.

 

So consumers will love the hydrogen car because it cost five times more to run.

 

Where do I order one?

[eisfeld]

33 minutes ago, eezergood said:

I am still not convinced, yet I am also not convinced we can ever have enough power & recourses to have electric cars....... 

 

Hydrogen is not a power source. You split water with energy into Hydrogen and Oxygen and then burn the Hydrogen together with Oxygen to release energy. It's more like a battery. You don't gain power by storing it in Hydrogen. It doesn't solve any demand in power.

 

16 minutes ago, eezergood said:

Mars - Musk is onto it........

 

Ah yes. Fly to Mars, split water into Hydrogen, transport it back to Earth. That makes sense. Wait, Earth is covered two thirds by water, why do we have to fly to Mars again?

[eisfeld]

6 minutes ago, retarius said:

Water vapour is a more potent greenhouse gas than Co2 or methane

 

Time for some education https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/why-do-we-blame-climate-change-carbon-dioxide-when-water-vapor-much-more-common-greenhouse

[MangoKorat]

Hydrogen Technology for cars is in its infancy at the moment. There seems to 2 types - fuel cell and more traditionally aligned, an Internal Combustion Engine that runs on Hydrogen. Both seem to have problems that need to be overcome but work is ongoing.

 

I've looked into buying an Electric Vehicle and won't be doing so as things are at the moment.  There are lots of issues with charging points and the power to supply them. EV's may well be a good choice for those who have Solar power at home or a live in an area that doesn't suffer from constant black outs but I often travel distances that would require charging.

 

I also quite like the Chinese (I think) idea of cars with an easily removeable battery that can be changed at a 'Service Station' - surely the electricity supply network to put that in place is much easier to provide than individual charging points all over the place?

 

I would urge anyone thinking of buying an EV to check out the insurance cost before taking the plunge.

 

I don't think there's any rush to make the move to any of the new technologies just yet, I'm going to see how things pan out but if they can sort out an ICE engined car, powered by Hydrogen, that would be the most attractive to me - simply because I'm an ex mechanic and I like engines, not motors.

 

In all cases, the overall cost of moving to an alternative energy vehicle currently seems to be far more expensive than traditional ICE vehicles - that and the fuel/charging problems leads me to believe that waiting is far more prudent.

Edited February 19 by MangoKorat

[BKKBike09]

48 minutes ago, proton said:

what could go wrong?

 

"she proved a puny plaything in the mighty grip of Fate" - love it. 

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, CharlieH said:

I thought I remembered this coming up before............

 

 

 

They've been around for decades, just most people are smart enough to avoid them.

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

Simple question.

 

Where will the hydrogen come from?

 

Hydrogen can be produced through electrolysis, hence solar. It will happen but sadly the highest potential for production will be in the hands of people who have the strange habit of using tablecloths as headwear.

 

Hydrogen won't be a source of energy, only a means of storage.

Edited February 19 by Ben Zioner

[vinny41]

Details of their tie-up will be ironed out later. But the recent race in Buriram offers hints on what they may have planned.

Among Toyota's race entrants was a hydrogen-powered Corolla, which Toyoda himself drove. The vehicle was powered by an engine fueled partly with hydrogen made from chicken manure at CP Group's poultry farms and processed by Toyota's Thai unit.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Toyota-drives-EV-and-hydrogen-push-in-Thailand-its-second-home

[OneMoreFarang]

IMHO it is obvious that EV are not suitable for a large-scale solution. It works with some of them on the streets, but it wouldn't work if the streets would be full of EV.

I guess hydrogen is a possibility. Let's see. 

 

[sirineou]

Hydrogen fuel cell is another kind of battery. This battery recharges in 5 minutes, and it;s main component is the most abundant element in the Universe 

Hydrogen in a car can be safer the gasoline. 

Issues: separating  it oxygen .developing  a delivery infustracture. 

Both problems are being worked on, and I am sure will be resolved soon

The current batteries are fine as a stop gap solution until hydrogen becomes mainstream , they are advantageous at this point because the re-charging  infustracture already exists

But these batteries have their issues also,  the materials to make them are problematic. And the electrical grid can not support 100%  charging EV ownership. 

So let's see , perhaps the electric grid can be upgraded all around the world. Or they can develop some type of battery that is made from abundant  minerals

But IMO it is easier to overcome the hydrogen issues. and as such I am convinced that the world will convert into a hydrogen economy. It is the path of least resistance.   

 

 

[eisfeld]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

IMHO it is obvious that EV are not suitable for a large-scale solution. It works with some of them on the streets, but it wouldn't work if the streets would be full of EV.

I guess hydrogen is a possibility. Let's see. 

 

 

...reasons being?

[eisfeld]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

But these batteries have their issues also,  the materials to make them are problematic. And the electrical grid can not support 100%  charging EV ownership. 

So let's see , perhaps the electric grid can be upgraded all around the world. Or they can develop some type of battery that is made from abundant  minerals

But IMO it is easier to overcome the hydrogen issues. and as such I am convinced that the world will convert into a hydrogen economy. It is the path of least resistance.   

 

The grid can be easily upgraded to support any load that EVs can demand. It's really not difficult. Has Norway had any grid failures yet? There are more than enough minerals to produce the batteries we need. The fossil fuel industries propanda that claims otherwise is just FUD. We've just started looking more for deposits due to increased demand in recent years. The arguments against BEVs are always just thinking of the current state as if no further developments would happen.

 

Hydrogen be it as combustion or fuel cells has existed for decades. It hasn't seen any noticable adoption and I'd rather not see high pressure hydrogen tanks parked in garages. Fine for trucks though imho.

[OneMoreFarang]

2 hours ago, eisfeld said:

...reasons being?

- Slow charging, it will never go as fast as putting gasoline in the tank

- How long will it take and how much effort and money to have an electrical grid which can supply enough electricity to charge all those vehicles (fast) at the same time?

- The batteries are big expensive sensitive parts. One rock on the street and it might be damaged and has to be replaced. That is very expensive. And it can burn, like hell, and the fire can't be doused.

- And will anybody use a 10 or 20 year old electric car? It will cost more to buy a new battery than a new car. And the batteries won't last forever.

I am sure there are many more reasons.

[eisfeld]

18 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

- Slow charging, it will never go as fast as putting gasoline in the tank

 

Source please? We are already seeing cars that can charge in 10 minutes from for example Toyota.

 

18 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

- How long will it take and how much effort and money to have an electrical grid which can supply enough electricity to charge all those vehicles (fast) at the same time?

 

Will take a couple years but we've done more difficult and expensive things. Progress takes investment. Why do you want to have a grid that can charge all vehicles fast at the same time? Most people neither need to charge fast nor all at the same time. They can charge the car through the night.

 

18 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

- The batteries are big expensive sensitive parts. One rock on the street and it might be damaged and has to be replaced. That is very expensive. And it can burn, like hell, and the fire can't be doused.

 

How does a rock hit the battery? They are behind a metal sheet. Did your car ever have a rock penetrate into the engine compartment? No? Why? Solid state batteries are a much much lower fire hazard. Again you are thinking of current state and not what is coming in the near to mid term but are dismissing future progress due to that. BTW I'd take an EV battery fire over a hydrogen explosion any day.

 

18 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

- And will anybody use a 10 or 20 year old electric car? It will cost more to buy a new battery than a new car. And the batteries won't last forever.

 

Batteries can be recycled. Why would it cost more to buy a battery than a new car? Batteries get cheaper all the time due to rapidly progressing development.

Edited February 19 by eisfeld

[MangoKorat]

3 hours ago, eisfeld said:

Will take a couple years but we've done more difficult and expensive things. Progress takes investment. Why do you want to have a grid that can charge all vehicles fast at the same time? Most people neither need to charge fast nor all at the same time. They can charge the car through the night.

Come on, Thailand can't even run the current grid properly.  Outages are common place - especially away from the capital.

[MangoKorat]

4 hours ago, eisfeld said:

How does a rock hit the battery? They are behind a metal sheet. Did your car ever have a rock penetrate into the engine compartment?

As an ex mechanic I've repaired many cars with engine damage incurred during a accident. Maybe not so many that have had a rock get into the engine bay but plenty that have gone off the road and damaged the sump and/or engine casings.  VW Golf Mk 5's and 6's used to break the casting where the engine mounted bolted on quite regularly in a front end shunt - new cylinder block, never done, car written off.

 

The insurance companies don't seem to agree with you currently either, have you checked out the premiums on EV's?

 

https://www.cityam.com/insuring-electric-vehicles-is-hugely-expensive-and-that-might-not-change-soon/

 

The above site (and plenty of others) also seem to disagree with your sentiment that EV batteries are unlikely to be damaged. I doubt that batteries will be immune to damage but it will not I accept, be common. However, the high replacement cost of them is already contributing to higher insurance costs.

Edited February 19 by MangoKorat

[MangoKorat]

3 hours ago, eisfeld said:

Batteries can be recycled. Why would it cost more to buy a battery than a new car? Batteries get cheaper all the time due to rapidly progressing development.

I'd rather buy a car based on what the position is currently - not what it might be in the future.  The current cost of battery replacement is between $5000 and $20,000. 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-battery-cost-replacement-repair-expenses-tesla-evs-2023-10?r=US&IR=T

 

How much will a car that is approaching its battery replacement age be worth?

 

I would, also state - based on experience, that each time the technology on cars has evolved - that has been accompanied by huge replacement costs for damaged or failed 'new tech' parts. A failed ECU (engine control unit) for example, can literally write a vehicle off (and does) and now we have Body Control Modules etc. etc.  The EV's that I've seen all seem to be packed with even more 'new tech' and if my past experience is anything to go by, that will go hand in hand with huge replacement costs when items fail.

 

The one saving grace is that there are now companies that specialise in taking this 'new tech' apart and repairing it at a fraction of the cost of replacement.  However, they don't usually get involved until a vehicle is 5 or 6 years old and even then, only when failures are common. Even more reason to hang fire and see where things go.

Edited February 19 by MangoKorat

[sirineou]

10 hours ago, eisfeld said:

The grid can be easily upgraded to support any load that EVs can demand.

, That would be great, do all of the third world countries know?

Seriously, pouting aside all the other challenges  of of conventional EV batteries, what do you think would be easier, Upgrade the worlds electrical grid infustracture, and have to live with all the other conventional EV battery issues, or develope a hydrogen infustracture. 

10 hours ago, eisfeld said:

There are more than enough minerals to produce the batteries we need.

at this point 2.2% of the worlds vehicles are conventional  battery electric, and already there are issues.

  The main material in  fuel cell battery is so prevalent that people often drown in it. The only issue is the extraction by current technology. But what technology  ever stays static?  When extraction becomes easier , and a hydrogen infustracture is developer, conventional EV batteries would only be a milestone in the history of the development of the EV. 

10 hours ago, eisfeld said:

The arguments against BEVs are always just thinking of the current state as if no further developments would happen.

Same thing I can say for hydrogen , and the main point of my post.Once the extraction of hydrogen becomes easier and cost effective, there would be no point in raveging the world by mining,and  making trade deals with countries,  Rain would be fine, and easily accessible to everyone.

10 hours ago, eisfeld said:

Hydrogen be it as combustion or fuel cells has existed for decades. It hasn't seen any noticable adoption and I'd rather not see high pressure hydrogen tanks parked in garages. Fine for trucks though imho.

because at this point the path of least Instance is conventional battery EV, and the need to do something about climate change fast. At this point conventional battery EV are the best option. This will not be true for ever. 

And we all need to stop using the term BEV, both conventional Battery, and  hydrogen fuel cell batteries are  Batteries. by definition. 

 

An additional point to consider is battery degradation in terms of cycles . At this point. a conventional ev battery will have

"  between 1500 and 2000 charge cycles"

https://www.thebluedot.co/blogs/should-electric-cars-be-charged-every-day#:~:text=More time spent charging an,% and discharge to 0%.

 

Where the new generation  Hydrogen fuel cell battery  can accomplice 

"The catalyst still performs at 97% of its activity after over 100,000 cycles."

https://cosmosmagazine.com/science/hydrogen-fuel-cell-catalyst/#:~:text=The new hydrogen fuel cell,activity after over 100%2C000 cycles.

 

   So in conclusion,conventional EV batteries are more desirable because the energy delivery infustracture already exists , but they have a long, charging time, much lower number of charging cycles.  at 100% usage some countries will have grid issues. and availability of minerals needed,

   Where in Hydrogen fuel cell batteries, hydrogen is the most abundant element in the Universe, but because it binds with oxygen to form water , more difficult to extract at this point of technological Development, the delivery infrastructure does not exist in the scale nessacery, but both of these challenges will change in the near future..It recharges in five minutes. has unlimited range, and much longer battery life.

IMO it is the buttery type of the future, there is a reason both Toyota and GM are betting on it, and it is not because they are stupid. And there is the Geopolitical aspect also. China dominates the conventional battery market, Hydrogen might be the way for the US to brake that dominance. 

 

[JBChiangRai]

14 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Hydrogen Technology for cars is in its infancy at the moment. There seems to 2 types - fuel cell and more traditionally aligned, an Internal Combustion Engine that runs on Hydrogen. Both seem to have problems that need to be overcome but work is ongoing.

 

I've looked into buying an Electric Vehicle and won't be doing so as things are at the moment.  There are lots of issues with charging points and the power to supply them. EV's may well be a good choice for those who have Solar power at home or a live in an area that doesn't suffer from constant black outs but I often travel distances that would require charging.

 

I also quite like the Chinese (I think) idea of cars with an easily removeable battery that can be changed at a 'Service Station' - surely the electricity supply network to put that in place is much easier to provide than individual charging points all over the place?

 

I would urge anyone thinking of buying an EV to check out the insurance cost before taking the plunge.

 

I don't think there's any rush to make the move to any of the new technologies just yet, I'm going to see how things pan out but if they can sort out an ICE engined car, powered by Hydrogen, that would be the most attractive to me - simply because I'm an ex mechanic and I like engines, not motors.

 

In all cases, the overall cost of moving to an alternative energy vehicle currently seems to be far more expensive than traditional ICE vehicles - that and the fuel/charging problems leads me to believe that waiting is far more prudent.

 

I am not aware of any issues with charging in Thailand, there are abundant charging points.  Don't forget you don't need any within 150km of where you live.

 

13 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

IMHO it is obvious that EV are not suitable for a large-scale solution. It works with some of them on the streets, but it wouldn't work if the streets would be full of EV.

I guess hydrogen is a possibility. Let's see. 

 

 

I think we will see large trucks using Hydrogen, buses etc and it's possible we could have some cars as well.  It will come down to market dynamics and pricing.  Consumers will prefer a BEV if they can afford it because it will be 5 times cheaper to run, so we could end up with BEV's being more expensive than Hydrogen fuel cell cars.  If there is a shortage of lithium production as @Lacessit thinks there will be then BEV's will be expensive and H2 cars will be priced more affordably.  There will be a price differential that will attract some buyers to H2 cars but BEV's will be what people aspire to.

 

5 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Come on, Thailand can't even run the current grid properly.  Outages are common place - especially away from the capital.

 

This is one of the top reasons for buying a BEV.  A grid outage won't affect you because your car will power your home in a grid outage.

 

5 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

As an ex mechanic I've repaired many cars with engine damage incurred during a accident. Maybe not so many that have had a rock get into the engine bay but plenty that have gone off the road and damaged the sump and/or engine casings.  VW Golf Mk 5's and 6's used to break the casting where the engine mounted bolted on quite regularly in a front end shunt - new cylinder block, never done, car written off.

 

The insurance companies don't seem to agree with you currently either, have you checked out the premiums on EV's?

 

https://www.cityam.com/insuring-electric-vehicles-is-hugely-expensive-and-that-might-not-change-soon/

 

The above site (and plenty of others) also seem to disagree with your sentiment that EV batteries are unlikely to be damaged. I doubt that batteries will be immune to damage but it will not I accept, be common. However, the high replacement cost of them is already contributing to higher insurance costs.

 

I reinsured an MG EP+ last October, it was 8,550 baht 1st Class.   I was quoted a similar amount last week for an MG4.

 

We are not seeing an increased insurance cost here in Thailand currently.  Tesla's are likely to be expensive because spare parts are ruinously expensive.

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

The single biggest barrier with Hydrogen is the cost to produce it.  Some people say it will become cheaper as technology improves, and whilst that is true, there are some scientific laws that cannot be broken leading to it never getting anything better than 3 times more expensive than running a BEV per kilometer.

 

CP are making a big noise about using chicken poop to make H2.  Firstly, it makes methane and they then crack that to make H2.  That uses a lot of energy and is problematic, often producing carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas or solid carbon which stops the reaction.  Secondly, it's not scalable.

 

The preferred way to produce H2 is by electrolysing water, this produces H2 and Oxygen (O2).  You need a specific amount of energy to break the bond between the two of them, you can't get more energy back by recreating the bond by reacting H2 in a fuel cell or burning it in an adapted ICE, producing water again in both cases.  So the efficiency level in doing this is always going to be poor.  There are losses in processing and delivering the H2 to cars.  Then if we have an ICE car adapted to H2.  We have probably taken the ICE as far as we can in terms of efficiency development as we are at around 40% for the best and most are around 25%.  A Fuel Cell is typically 40-60% efficient, let's suppose by some miracle we could improve that to 80%, that would still make a H2 Fuel Cell car cost twice as much to run as a BEV.  you can't argue with science.  The best we can ever achieve is twice the cost per kilometer for H2.

 

The next issue is Fuel Tax.  It's impractical to tax electricity for cars, it would be easy for governments to apply tax to Hydrogen, this would make the case for Hydrogen even worse.

 

The only scenario I can see people buying H2 cars is if the BEV's become super expensive.  It's likely to happen if @Lacessit is right about Lithium shortage in the future, but however you look at it, purchase cost being similar, the BEV is far more desirable because it's much cheaper to run.

Edited February 20 by JBChiangRai
Spellong

[JBChiangRai]

18 minutes ago, sirineou said:

, That would be great, do all of the third world countries know?

Seriously, pouting aside all the other challenges  of of conventional EV batteries, what do you think would be easier, Upgrade the worlds electrical grid infustracture, and have to live with all the other conventional EV battery issues, or develope a hydrogen infustracture. 

at this point 2.2% of the worlds vehicles are conventional  battery electric, and already there are issues.

  The main material in  fuel cell battery is so prevalent that people often drown in it. The only issue is the extraction by current technology. But what technology  ever stays static?  When extraction becomes easier , and a hydrogen infustracture is developer, conventional EV batteries would only be a milestone in the history of the development of the EV. 

Same thing I can say for hydrogen , and the main point of my post.Once the extraction of hydrogen becomes easier and cost effective, there would be no point in raveging the world by mining,and  making trade deals with countries,  Rain would be fine, and easily accessible to everyone.

because at this point the path of least Instance is conventional battery EV, and the need to do something about climate change fast. At this point conventional battery EV are the best option. This will not be true for ever. 

And we all need to stop using the term BEV, both conventional Battery, and  hydrogen fuel cell batteries are  Batteries. by definition. 

 

An additional point to consider is battery degradation in terms of cycles . At this point. a conventional ev battery will have

"  between 1500 and 2000 charge cycles"

https://www.thebluedot.co/blogs/should-electric-cars-be-charged-every-day#:~:text=More time spent charging an,% and discharge to 0%.

 

Where the new generation  Hydrogen fuel cell battery  can accomplice 

"The catalyst still performs at 97% of its activity after over 100,000 cycles."

https://cosmosmagazine.com/science/hydrogen-fuel-cell-catalyst/#:~:text=The new hydrogen fuel cell,activity after over 100%2C000 cycles.

 

   So in conclusion,conventional EV batteries are more desirable because the energy delivery infustracture already exists , but they have a long, charging time, much lower number of charging cycles.  at 100% usage some countries will have grid issues. and availability of minerals needed,

   Where in Hydrogen fuel cell batteries, hydrogen is the most abundant element in the Universe, but because it binds with oxygen to form water , more difficult to extract at this point of technological Development, the delivery infrastructure does not exist in the scale nessacery, but both of these challenges will change in the near future..It recharges in five minutes. has unlimited range, and much longer battery life.

IMO it is the buttery type of the future, there is a reason both Toyota and GM are betting on it, and it is not because they are stupid. And there is the Geopolitical aspect also. China dominates the conventional battery market, Hydrogen might be the way for the US to brake that dominance. 

 

 

Third world countries without electric infrastructure are not suitable today for BEV cars, they are probably not suitable for H2 cars either because there is no infrastructure to deliver the H2.  In 20-30 years when BEV's are mainstream, will the third world countries still be third world?  I think it's likely if they are they will be running old ICE cars and maybe other countries will be exporting them there.  One of the UK's richest men made his fortune by shipping old bus engines and transmissions to Asia as the bus companies upgraded to more modern technology.

 

Don't forget the scientific limitations on H2.  It can never be any better than twice as expensive per kilometer for H2 compared to BEV, it's currently 5 times more expensive.  You can never turn electricity into hydrogen and back again at the efficiency level of a BEV, it's an impossibility.  I can't see anyone subsidising H2, more likely taxing it, why? because they can!

 

The best way to use H2 is in a fuel cell.  Guess what a Fuel Cell cars also has?  If you guessed a Lithium based battery, you would be correct.  They have to have a battery because Fuel Cells are slow to react, they take time to ramp up and ramp down.  It's a much smaller battery than a BEV, and it will be cycled a lot more, it's unlikely to last as long as a BEV battery.  Fuel Cells waste energy in the form of heat, much like an ICE.

 

Your conclusion about why BEV's are more desirable is true today.  In the future it will be true because they cost between 20% and 50% to run compared to an H2 car, 50% if they achieve utopia in producing, storing, delivering H2 to drivers, which will never happen, 33% is probably it.

 

Edited February 20 by JBChiangRai
Spellong

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Third world countries without electric infrastructure are not suitable today for BEV cars, they are probably not suitable for H2 cars either because there is no infrastructure to deliver the H2.  In 20-30 years when BEV's are mainstream, will the third world countries still be third world?  I think it's likely if they are they will be running old ICE cars and maybe other countries will be exporting them there.  One of the UK's richest men made his fortune by shipping old bus engines and transmissions to Asia as the bus companies upgraded to more modern technology.

 

Don't forget the scientific limitations on H2.  It can never be any better than twice as expensive per kilometer for H2 compared to BEV, it's currently 5 times more expensive.  You can never turn electricity into hydrogen and back again at the efficiency level of a BEV, it's an impossibility.  I can't see anyone subsidising H2, more likely taxing it, why? because they can!

 

The best way to use H2 is in a fuel cell.  Guess what a Fuel Cell cars also has?  If you guessed a Lithium based battery, you would be correct.  They have to have a battery because Fuel Cells are slow to react, they take time to ramp up and ramp down.  It's a much smaller battery than a BEV, and it will be cycled a lot more, it's unlikely to last as long as a BEV battery.

 

Your conclusion about why BEV's are more desirable is true today.  In the future it will be true because they cost between 20% and 50% to run compared to an H2 car, 50% if they achieve utopia in producing, storing, delivering H2 to drivers, which will never happen.

 

I guess the future will tell. 

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I guess the future will tell. 

 

 Unfortunately, I am unlikely to be around in 20 years and definitely not in 30 years.